When Has God Gathered After He Scattered Without Any Repentance?

[Guojing]

Of course not, but you need to stop identifying every Jew with "the Nation".

say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite Rom.11:1

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men Rom.11:4

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Rom.11:5

At this present time, such as Paul, the other Apostles and all the Jews who who believe in Jesus. Please look at what he's saying.

He's recovering the remnant of Israel now.

But do you agree that, Israel will eventually be restored as God's favored nation, during the Tribulation?

 

[Phoneman-777]

True. This is actually true.


Proof?

While there's no explicit text that says Zechariah's prophecy is conditional, history clearly shows it never came to pass because Israel never met the conditions for it's fulfillment. And, Scripture well establishes that God's prophetic promises/curses are always conditional, depending on the actions of the people:

• God said Nineveh would be leveled in 40 days, which didn't happen due to its repentance.
• God said Hezekiah's death was imminent, but added 15 years to his life after Hezekiah repented.
• God intended to destroy the exodus Israelites but repented after Moses interceded on their behalf.
• God promised to gather His people anytime He scattered them for disobedience if they would first repent.

Therefore, when Israel failed to get their act together and fulfill Zechariah's prophecy, we shouldn't dismiss their failure to meet the condition of it's fulfillment and give the Israelites a pass by sending it down to the end of time as a future fulfillment by "literal Israel after the church is raptured" ...mainly because no such circumstance will come to pass.

Historicism firmly teaches things are going to get worse and worse until the Antichrist compels all to take the Mark of the Beast -- followed by a boycott against those who refuse and then a death decree -- at which time probation closes and the plagues fall, with the seventh plague being the simultaneous gathering of the dead and living saints to Jesus at His Second Coming (no "rapture", secret or otherwise, seven years prior) accompanied by a destruction such as the world has never seen -- which will bring about the fulfillment of all those OT and NT verses concerning an empty, desolate, dark, uninhabitable, totally destroyed planet littered with the bodies of the wicked who dropped dead "at the brightness of His coming".

 

[Guojing]

While there's no explicit text that says Zechariah's prophecy is conditional, history clearly shows it never came to pass because Israel never met the conditions for it's fulfillment. And, Scripture well establishes that God's prophetic promises/curses are always conditional, depending on the actions of the people:

• God said Nineveh would be leveled in 40 days, which didn't happen due to its repentance.
• God said Hezekiah's death was imminent, but added 15 years to his life after Hezekiah repented.
• God intended to destroy the exodus Israelites but repented after Moses interceded on their behalf.
• God promised to gather His people anytime He scattered them for disobedience if they would first repent.

Therefore, when Israel failed to get their act together and fulfill Zechariah's prophecy, we shouldn't dismiss their failure to meet the condition of it's fulfillment and give the Israelites a pass by sending it down to the end of time as a future fulfillment by "literal Israel after the church is raptured" ...mainly because no such circumstance will come to pass.

Historicism firmly teaches things are going to get worse and worse until the Antichrist compels all to take the Mark of the Beast -- followed by a boycott against those who refuse and then a death decree -- at which time probation closes and the plagues fall, with the seventh plague being the simultaneous gathering of the dead and living saints to Jesus at His Second Coming, accompanied by a destruction such as the world has never seen -- which will bring about the fulfillment of all those OT and NT verses concerning an empty, desolate, dark, uninhabitable, totally destroyed planet littered with the bodies of the wicked who dropped dead "at the brightness of His coming".

Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

You don't trust what God said in that verse "it shall come to pass"?

 

[Phoneman-777]

There are people who say they believe in our Lord, but don't. God will decide who does, or doesn't.

We owe the Jewish people a great deal, because they proclaimed our Savior to the world. Read the Prophets this way, no matter what the prophecy is.

Jesus is not coming back here to once again send the the Jewish people out to teach the world about God. He has and continues to do that now.

I don't know if we owe a debt of gratitude to the entire Jewish nation, but we certainly can be thankful for faithful individuals like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. We must remember that Jesus Himself declared He had yet to see in Israel such faith so great as that demonstrated by a Roman centurion and a Syro-Phonecian woman, both Gentiles.

However, Israel is best characterized by the sad commentary that seemed to be repeated time and time again throughout their entire rebellious, disobedient history: "And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord."

 

[Phoneman-777]

It is no good just cherry picking quotes that is devil's work, Jesus was speaking to that generation of Jewish leaders who were lackeys to the Romans.

You have to balance these quotes with those which foretell their restoration.

WHAT RESTORATION? Romans 11? No matter how loud the "Israel in prophecy" crowd demands it, Romans 11 no where speaks of national restoration, but restoration of a individual remnant natural branches that may be grafted in via their repentance alongside us wild branches. No separate nation. No more "Jew or Gentile". No more Israel in prophecy...unless you're talking about Spiritual Israel, the church, which is called "the Israel of God" that walks "according to this rule" of the new creature in Christ.

Some would claim wrongly dividing the word of God as "the work of the devil."

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well, at least you are confident enough in your doctrine to state that you do believe in replacement theology.

Even though I disagree with that, I can respect the clarity of your stance.

"Replacement theology" is a term thrown around as a means of denigrating those who believe the church is now "Spiritual Israel". I prefer to call it "Candlestick Theology" -- God's principle found in Revelation 2 of removing the light from those who refuse to walk in it and giving it others willing to do so.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

You don't trust what God said in that verse "it shall come to pass"?

I know that it would have come to pass if Israel would have got their act together and done what they were supposed to do. It's not a matter of distrusting God, but God's hands being tied by the stubbornness of His people.

 

[Guojing]

I know that it would have come to pass if Israel would have got their act together and done what they were supposed to do. It's not a matter of distrusting God, but God's hands being tied by the stubbornness of His people.

You don't believe God can see the future, that the entire nation of Israel would eventually accept Jesus as their promised Messiah?

 

[Journeyman]

But do you agree that, Israel will eventually be restored as God's favored nation, during the Tribulation?

No brother, I don't agree. Like the parable of the wheat and tares, at the end of this world, unbelieving Jews and gentiles will be separated from the faithful, regardless of race.

 

[Guojing]

No brother, I don't agree. Like the parable of the wheat and tares, at the end of this world, unbelieving Jews and gentiles will be separated from the faithful, regardless of race.

So isn’t that the same as saying that Israel has been permanently abandoned by God?

Note I am not saying individual Jews are abandoned, I am saying the Israel as a nation, that was mentioned in exodus 19:6

 

[Journeyman]

I don't know if we owe a debt of gratitude to the entire Jewish nation, but we certainly can be thankful for faithful individuals like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. We must remember that Jesus Himself declared He had yet to see in Israel such faith so great as that demonstrated by a Roman centurion and a Syro-Phonecian woman, both Gentiles.

However, Israel is best characterized by the sad commentary that seemed to be repeated time and time again throughout their entire rebellious, disobedient history: "And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord."

Yes brother, the faithful. Blindness "in part" isn't a only a NT thing. The wheat and tares have always been growing together.

 

[Journeyman]

So isn’t that the same as saying that Israel has been permanently abandoned by God?

No. There has always been a number of faithful Jews. Those are the people of God. Both the OT and NT teach this.

Note I am not saying individual Jews are abandoned, I am saying the Israel as a nation, that was mentioned in exodus 19:6

The Nation is defined by Exo.19:5,

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people:

He's saying the believers are his people.

 

[Guojing]

No. There has always been a number of faithful Jews. Those are the people of God. Both the OT and NT teach this.

The Nation is defined by Exo.19:5,

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people:

He's saying the believers are his people.

Just to clarify, do you believe there was a time when the entire nation of Israel was favored by God, say during the reign of King David and Solomon?

 

[Phoneman-777]

You don't believe God can see the future, that the entire nation of Israel would eventually accept Jesus as their promised Messiah?

Do you believe God, who sent Jonah to warn of the imminent destruction of Nineveh, could see their future repentance?

Until we understand that prophecy is conditional -- there will always be eschatological disharmony in our interpretations.

The only harmonious interpretation is Historicism, which sees Scripturally that which is stubbornly ignored by Jesuit Futurism: that scattered Literal Israel has no relevance to end times prophecy (we can't deny the disappearance of the 12 tribes through an irredeemably polluted gene pool) and that Spiritual Israel is now the recipient of the OT prophetic promises, per Galatians 3:29 KJV, 2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV, Galatians 6:16 KJV, etc.

 

[Truth7t7]

Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

You don't trust what God said in that verse "it shall come to pass"?

Of course it will come to pass, as those who are of faith, are God's chosen Jew's, the Church.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Zechariah 8:23KJV
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Yes brother, the faithful. Blindness "in part" isn't a only a NT thing. The wheat and tares have always been growing together.

Amen, bro. Discounting Literal Israel as having anything to do with end times prophecy has many implications. It demands that Revelation parallels history, rather than being an interrupted book which will resume after the church is gone. We must account that everything pertains to the church, including the Mark of the Beast, the identification of Babylon, the call for God's people to come out of Babylon, etc. Right now, there is a worldwide Christian denomination preaching the messages of the three angels into all the world as we speak: The hour of God's Investigative Judgment is here and that we must cease from worshiping false systems and worship "Him Who created the heavens, Earth, and sea", a direct quote from the Sabbath commandment; the message to come out of Babylon because she is making the entire world drunk with the wine of her false Biblical doctrine which includes Jesuit Futurism; and the warning to not accept the Mark of the Beast.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Of course it will come to pass, as those who are of faith, are God's chosen Jew's, the Church.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Zechariah 8:23KJV
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

The "Israel of God".

 

[Truth7t7]

You don't believe God can see the future, that the entire nation of Israel would eventually accept Jesus as their promised Messiah?

Your claim "ALL" of National Israel will be saved is (False)

Only the Remnant elect chosen, the 1/3 will be saved by grace, the rest 2/3 are blind, and will be cut off and die.

Romans 11:5-7KJV
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

[Truth7t7]

The "Israel of God".

The Israel Of God, "The Church", Children Of The Promised Seed.

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Truth7t7]

Amen, bro. Discounting Literal Israel as having anything to do with end times prophecy has many implications. It demands that Revelation parallels history, rather than being an interrupted book which will resume after the church is gone. We must account that everything pertains to the church, including the Mark of the Beast, the identification of Babylon, the call for God's people to come out of Babylon, etc. Right now, there is a worldwide Christian denomination preaching the messages of the three angels into all the world as we speak: The hour of God's Investigative Judgment is here and that we must cease from worshiping false systems and worship "Him Who created the heavens, Earth, and sea", a direct quote from the Sabbath commandment; the message to come out of Babylon because she is making the entire world drunk with the wine of her false Biblical doctrine which includes Jesuit Futurism; and the warning to not accept the Mark of the Beast.

No such thing as the (Investigative Judgement) a false doctrine of (Ellen G. White) in 7th Day Adventism, started in 1844 after the false prediction of Jesus Christ returning in the Second Coming in (The Great Disappointment)

Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots, Seen In Revelation Chapters 17-18, Not Roman Catholicism, As 7th Day Adventist Teach, With Sunday Observance Being The Mark Of The Beast