Poll: Do "One Taken/Other Left" Verses Refer To Secret Rapture or Second Coming?

[ewq1938]

You accused the Reformers of beliefs that are not theirs

I did not.

and are not only unapologetic about it, but you continue to criticize them while being totally ignorant of what they believed and the verses used to substantiate those beliefs. Not good, friend.

I am not ignorant of their beliefs. Even you quoted some of them to me so that rules out any ignorance of what they believed. I also know the verses they incorrectly use to supposedly support that errant belief. What I did say is that ANYONE who taught that Jesus and Michael are the same person is wrong. That is a heresy no matter who teaches it. Most of those people were well meaning but they are also imperfect and had errors in their theology. That one is a big one. It's as bad and sloppy as the pre-trib doctrine.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I did not.

Oh you most certainly did.

I am not ignorant of their beliefs.

You said they believe Jesus is merely a created being which proves you know NOTHING about their beliefs yet you presume to make your suppositions about them the reality.

 

[ewq1938]

Oh you most certainly did.
You said they believe Jesus is merely a created being which proves you know NOTHING about their beliefs yet you presume to make your suppositions about them the reality.

You have me confused with someone else or misunderstood something I said. I did not say or believe they believed Jesus is a created being.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You have me confused with someone else or misunderstood something I said. I did not say or believe they believed Jesus is a created being.

You didn't say the Protestant Reformers who taught Michael the Archangel is Jesus were people who believed that Jesus was a created being?

 

[ewq1938]

You didn't say the Protestant Reformers who taught Michael the Archangel is Jesus were people who believed that Jesus was a created being?

No. None of them believed Jesus was a created being. Since they believed Jesus and Michael are the same person, they also would not believe Michael was a created being.

 

[Phoneman-777]

No. None of them believed Jesus was a created being. Since they believed Jesus and Michael are the same person, they also would not believe Michael was a created being.

Yes, I did have you mixed up with another person, so 1,000 pardons, please.

You are correct, NONE of the Reformers who taught Jesus is Michael the Archangel believed that Jesus was a created being, but that He having manifested Himself as an angel was still the Almighty Creator in the highest sense. And, when He manifested Himself as a human, He took another name: Jesus, "for He will save the people from their sins."

It was only Russell and the JWs who took the very verses which prove Jesus is Michael and twisted them in an attempt to deny Jesus' divinity and make Him nothing more that an ordinary angel, the highest angel, yes, but nothing more than a created being. Russell was a high Freemason, and everyone who's studied into what secret societies believe can tell you that every single one of these Luciferian organizations by their teachings attack the divinity of Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, I did have you mixed up with another person, so 1,000 pardons, please.

No problem.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I did have you mixed up with another person, so 1,000 pardons, please.

You are correct, NONE of the Reformers who taught Jesus is Michael the Archangel believed that Jesus was a created being, but that He having manifested Himself as an angel was still the Almighty Creator in the highest sense. And, when He manifested Himself as a human, He took another name: Jesus, "for He will save the people from their sins."

It was only Russell and the JWs who took the very verses which prove Jesus is Michael and twisted them in an attempt to deny Jesus' divinity and make Him nothing more that an ordinary angel, the highest angel, yes, but nothing more than a created being. Russell was a high Freemason, and everyone who's studied into what secret societies believe can tell you that every single one of these Luciferian organizations by their teachings attack the divinity of Jesus.

Scripture clearly teaches (Michael) and (Jesus Christ) are different

Michael The Archangel rebuked satan in the name of the (Lord) Jesus Christ, Who Is (Lord) In Both The Old And New Testament.

(The Lord Rebuke Thee) Michael Isnt The Lord, it's that simple.

Jude 1:9KJV
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I did have you mixed up with another person, so 1,000 pardons, please.

You are correct, NONE of the Reformers who taught Jesus is Michael the Archangel believed that Jesus was a created being, but that He having manifested Himself as an angel was still the Almighty Creator in the highest sense. And, when He manifested Himself as a human, He took another name: Jesus, "for He will save the people from their sins."

It was only Russell and the JWs who took the very verses which prove Jesus is Michael and twisted them in an attempt to deny Jesus' divinity and make Him nothing more that an ordinary angel, the highest angel, yes, but nothing more than a created being. Russell was a high Freemason, and everyone who's studied into what secret societies believe can tell you that every single one of these Luciferian organizations by their teachings attack the divinity of Jesus.

Phoneman who is that below in Daniel 10:5-6?

Loins girded with gold, face as lightning, eyes as fire, arms and feet brass, words as voice of multitudes?

Revelation 1:13-15KJV
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Daniel 10:5-6KJV
5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Please post why you believe it is the one or the other. Thanks

it’s a reference specifically to the last generation of mankind who are alive when Christ returns in the end. The believers will be taken here when Jesus returns

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭

of course in the two thousand years since he was taken to heaven, a lot of Christians have passed away and won’t be alive on earth on that day

If we look at the whole section of what Jesus is talking about he’s talking about a day of sudden destruction like Noah’s day , like lots day comparing it to his second coming

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

(then he’s telling us some will be saved on that day from this sudden destruction and some will be left to suffer it )

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:26-31, 33-

Believers who are alive on that day will be caught up to meet the lord in the sky together with all their lost loved ones who believed

And sadly non believers in that day will be left to this

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a sudden event for those who are on earth alive at that time like Noah’s day life was going on and the. Came the floods . In sodom and Gomorrah life was just as usual and then sudden destruction came

but In both instances God saved people who listened to his word and took his warning and believed and so moved in faith and were saved .

it’s the same now whoever will believe the gospel will be saved even if they are alive on that day of destruction to come

I believe it is a reference to the day of christs return from heaven to do unleash his wrath upon creation and those taken are those caught up with the lord in the air and those who don’t actually die , but are changed in a twinkling of an eye

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul was expecting his return any day as they all were and we should be but when the ones are taken that day they will be instantly translated when they are caught up in the air

 

[Absolutely]

it’s a reference specifically to the last generation of mankind who are alive when Christ returns in the end. The believers will be taken here when Jesus returns

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭

of course in the two thousand years since he was taken to heaven, a lot of Christians have passed away and won’t be alive on earth on that day

If we look at the whole section of what Jesus is talking about he’s talking about a day of sudden destruction like Noah’s day , like lots day comparing it to his second coming

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

(then he’s telling us some will be saved on that day from this sudden destruction and some will be left to suffer it )

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:26-31, 33-

Believers who are alive on that day will be caught up to meet the lord in the sky together with all their lost loved ones who believed

And sadly non believers in that day will be left to this

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a sudden event for those who are on earth alive at that time like Noah’s day life was going on and the. Came the floods . In sodom and Gomorrah life was just as usual and then sudden destruction came

but In both instances God saved people who listened to his word and took his warning and believed and so moved in faith and were saved .

it’s the same now whoever will believe the gospel will be saved even if they are alive on that day of destruction to come

I believe it is a reference to the day of christs return from heaven to do unleash his wrath upon creation and those taken are those caught up with the lord in the air and those who don’t actually die , but are changed in a twinkling of an eye

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul was expecting his return any day as they all were and we should be but when the ones are taken that day they will be instantly translated when they are caught up in the air

Does not fit.

Two in a bed.
( under your model you have a heathen and a believer in a bed together)

All the locations for the " one taken/raptured" are peacetime and have normal activities.
At the second coming on horses the earth is in a north Korea destroyed type of setting.

It can not be at the second coming on horses.

It fits the rapture of the saints.
Re read it it. It is immediately followed by watching and waiting ( the rapture)

Then, in almost the same breath is the 10 virgin parable. ( the pretrib rapture)

 

[CS1]

Please post why you believe it is the one or the other. Thanks

what is a secret Rapture know one going to know they are gone? lol.

 

[Truth7t7]

Does not fit.

Two in a bed.
( under your model you have a heathen and a believer in a bed together)

All the locations for the " one taken/raptured" are peacetime and have normal activities.
At the second coming on horses the earth is in a north Korea destroyed type of setting.

It can not be at the second coming on horses.

It fits the rapture of the saints.
Re read it it. It is immediately followed by watching and waiting ( the rapture)

Then, in almost the same breath is the 10 virgin parable. ( the pretrib rapture)

More one liners, no scripture for support

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Does not fit.

Two in a bed.
( under your model you have a heathen and a believer in a bed together)

All the locations for the " one taken/raptured" are peacetime and have normal activities.
At the second coming on horses the earth is in a north Korea destroyed type of setting.

It can not be at the second coming on horses.

It fits the rapture of the saints.
Re read it it. It is immediately followed by watching and waiting ( the rapture)

Then, in almost the same breath is the 10 virgin parable. ( the pretrib rapture)

my Model ?

so your saying if two people are in the same bed they are both born again believers ? I’m not sure where that would make any sense honestly .

Two men being in a bed together sounds odd to us because of perversion , in Jesus time there were group houses where people went to eat and sleep whether visiting a city and couldn’t afford housing , or just poor . That reference is about that he’s saying believers will be taken and non believers will be left behind I don’t see where you are basing your theory


honestly it seems like you Don’t want to talk about what scripture says but want to argue about a ore tribulation rapture theory . That wasn’t my intent in responding to the op , was just offering my thoughts and as the op asked why it is I think that

it wasn’t my intention to debate whether you think there’s a ore tribulation rapture , but to discuss scripture and what it actually teaches the scriptures in my post show why I think what I think which is what I appreciated most about the question in the op to ask people to show why they think what they think

pre tribulation removal of the church makes no sense to what the lord said



“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:31‬ ‭

the gathering of his people is after the perpetual tribulations he has just explained must take place in the world before his return and was preparing believers for to go through and stand in faith and be saved

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:

and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-13‬ ‭

what he never is saying is I will rapture you out of all these things before they Happen , he’s actually preparing them to face thsee things to come and keep faith

He’s talking about the world we live in perpetual tribulations in the world until the very end the last generation of mankind on this earth. The last ones will be caught up with him in the end when he comes back after all the trouble but just before the wrath and destruction is unleashed on the world

tribulation is a part of Our journey in many forms and in many different times Christians face persecutions , hate , exclusion , and of course still tens of thousands die each year because of sharing Christian faith in foreign nations as martyrs even still today

He began answering these questions and begins explaining the end was yet a long way off

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3-7, 14‬ ‭


He’s explaining how the world would be after he went to heaven and how things would get worse and worse until the end the tribulation is a perpetual thing for a distinguished period of time not 3 and a half or seven years but perpetually unfolding into
The end and then whoever is alive that day will be caught up with Jesus and the saints in the air just before the moment of sudden destruction

Christ prepared his peoppe
To face many forms of Trial and tribulation on the world so we can overcome and stand firm in faith and be saved








there is no pre trib rapture is the thing , only one generation is going to be alive to be raptured out of the destruction some take and others left

 

[Truth7t7]

my Model ?

so your saying if two people are in the same bed they are both born again believers ? I’m not sure where that would make any sense honestly .

Two men being in a bed together sounds odd to us because of perversion , in Jesus time there were group houses where people went to eat and sleep whether visiting a city and couldn’t afford housing , or just poor . That reference is about that he’s saying believers will be taken and non believers will be left behind I don’t see where you are basing your theory


honestly it seems like you Don’t want to talk about what scripture says but want to argue about a ore tribulation rapture theory . That wasn’t my intent in responding to the op , was just offering my thoughts and as the op asked why it is I think that

it wasn’t my intention to debate whether you think there’s a ore tribulation rapture , but to discuss scripture and what it actually teaches the scriptures in my post show why I think what I think which is what I appreciated most about the question in the op to ask people to show why they think what they think

pre tribulation removal of the church makes no sense to what the lord said



“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:31‬ ‭

the gathering of his people is after the perpetual tribulations he has just explained must take place in the world before his return and was preparing believers for to go through and stand in faith and be saved

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:

and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-13‬ ‭

what he never is saying is I will rapture you out of all these things before they Happen , he’s actually preparing them to face thsee things to come and keep faith

He’s talking about the world we live in perpetual tribulations in the world until the very end the last generation of mankind on this earth. The last ones will be caught up with him in the end when he comes back after all the trouble but just before the wrath and destruction is unleashed on the world

tribulation is a part of Our journey in many forms and in many different times Christians face persecutions , hate , exclusion , and of course still tens of thousands die each year because of sharing Christian faith in foreign nations as martyrs even still today

He began answering these questions and begins explaining the end was yet a long way off

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3-7, 14‬ ‭


He’s explaining how the world would be after he went to heaven and how things would get worse and worse until the end the tribulation is a perpetual thing for a distinguished period of time not 3 and a half or seven years but perpetually unfolding into
The end and then whoever is alive that day will be caught up with Jesus and the saints in the air just before the moment of sudden destruction

Christ prepared his peoppe
To face many forms of Trial and tribulation on the world so we can overcome and stand firm in faith and be saved

there is no pre trib rapture is the thing , only one generation is going to be alive to be raptured out of the destruction some take and others left

I will disagree with your perpetual tribulations, and disregard for (The Great Tribulation) seen in Matthew 24:21KJV

The scripture clearly teaches in Matthew 24:15 when you shall see the abomination of desolation, and this didnt take place with Antiochus Epiphanies, Nero, Or Titus as (Historicism) teaches

This abomination is a future event, that will mark the revealing of the future Antichrist and beginning of the 3.5 year great tribulation.

1. Abomination Of Desolation
2. Great Tribulation
3. Immediately After The Tribulation, Second Coming

Matthew 24:15-31KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Phoneman-777]

it’s a reference specifically to the last generation of mankind who are alive when Christ returns in the end. The believers will be taken here when Jesus returns

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭

of course in the two thousand years since he was taken to heaven, a lot of Christians have passed away and won’t be alive on earth on that day

If we look at the whole section of what Jesus is talking about he’s talking about a day of sudden destruction like Noah’s day , like lots day comparing it to his second coming

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

(then he’s telling us some will be saved on that day from this sudden destruction and some will be left to suffer it )

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:26-31, 33-

Believers who are alive on that day will be caught up to meet the lord in the sky together with all their lost loved ones who believed

And sadly non believers in that day will be left to this

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a sudden event for those who are on earth alive at that time like Noah’s day life was going on and the. Came the floods . In sodom and Gomorrah life was just as usual and then sudden destruction came

but In both instances God saved people who listened to his word and took his warning and believed and so moved in faith and were saved .

it’s the same now whoever will believe the gospel will be saved even if they are alive on that day of destruction to come

I believe it is a reference to the day of christs return from heaven to do unleash his wrath upon creation and those taken are those caught up with the lord in the air and those who don’t actually die , but are changed in a twinkling of an eye

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul was expecting his return any day as they all were and we should be but when the ones are taken that day they will be instantly translated when they are caught up in the air

Agreed with everything except the last part about Paul expecting Jesus any day. He says there needed to come the “falling away” first which in Greek is “apostasia” from where we get “apostasy”. IOW, Paul says there had to come a great apostasy in the church which would be accompanied with the rise of the Antichrist before Jesus’ Second Coming.

Ever heard of Foxe’s Book of Martyrs? The apostate papal church in Rome, the city which set upon 7 hills, committed the most heinous, blasphemous atrocities in history, among which was putting to death between 50-150 MILLION innocent “heretics” IN THE NAME OF CHRIST because they dared to worship God as their consciences dictated.

It’s why the Reformers all agreed the papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy. The ECF said they knew exactly who Paul referred to as the “Restrainer” which prevented the rise of the “man of sin” Papacy, but couldn’t mention in his letter what he’d previously told them plainly in person - the Roman Empire.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Phoneman who is that below in Daniel 10:5-6?

Loins girded with gold, face as lightning, eyes as fire, arms and feet brass, words as voice of multitudes?

Revelation 1:13-15KJV
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Daniel 10:5-6KJV
5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

By all means, compare Daniel 10 with Daniel 9 and then please tell me:

10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand (So, his mission is to give Daniel understanding, right?) the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent (Does God get sent or does He do the sending?) And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

9:21 Yea, whiles I [was] speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, (Do we cause God to do things or does He cause us?) touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
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10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

9:22 And he informed [me], and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding (Oh, so Gabriel has the same mission as the one in Daniel 10?).
9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show [thee]; for thou [art] greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

The answer is so plainly obvious and for a surety, that answer is NOT Jesus - it is Gabriel. If it is Almighty God Jesus, why in the world would He need anyone's help to do anything?

No, it is Gabriel who was withstood by the "real" Prince of Persia, Satan, and required the help of Almighty God Jesus to gain the victory against him - Almighty Jesus Who manifested Himself as Michael the Archangel in the OT. Good gravy, man, READ why the Reformers believed that Almighty God Jesus manifested Himself as Michael the Archangel before you enter the arena debate, please!

 

[Phoneman-777]

Scripture clearly teaches (Michael) and (Jesus Christ) are different

Michael The Archangel rebuked satan in the name of the (Lord) Jesus Christ, Who Is (Lord) In Both The Old And New Testament.

(The Lord Rebuke Thee) Michael Isnt The Lord, it's that simple.

Jude 1:9KJV
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Zechariah 3:1-2 KJV
[1] And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. [2] And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord h thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? [/QUOTE] By your logic, the LORD ain’t the LORD because He says, “The LORD rebuke thee.”

(When the Lord rebukes Satan, He does it THIRD PERSON POINT OF VIEW in the name of the Lord.”)

When the Almighty God Lord Jesus manifested Himself as “the angel of the Lord” and took the name “Michael the Archangel” He rebuked the devil in THIRD PERSON.

 

[Phoneman-777]

what is a secret Rapture know one going to know they are gone? lol.

It’s a secret. Can’t tell you 😝

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Agreed with everything except the last part about Paul expecting Jesus any day. He says there needed to come the “falling away” first which in Greek is “apostasia” from where we get “apostasy”. IOW, Paul says there had to come a great apostasy in the church which would be accompanied with the rise of the Antichrist before Jesus’ Second Coming.

Ever heard of Foxe’s Book of Martyrs? The apostate papal church in Rome, the city which set upon 7 hills, committed the most heinous, blasphemous atrocities in history, among which was putting to death between 50-150 MILLION innocent “heretics” IN THE NAME OF CHRIST because they dared to worship God as their consciences dictated.

It’s why the Reformers all agreed the papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy. The ECF said they knew exactly who Paul referred to as the “Restrainer” which prevented the rise of the “man of sin” Papacy, but couldn’t mention in his letter what he’d previously told them plainly in person - the Roman Empire.

It seems Paul was expecting him soon

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord

shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems to me from this statement Paul was expecting Jesus before his lifetime ended. But honestly I don’t think it’s worth debating I think the doctrine itself breeds an expectation that tomorrow could be the day and that no one will expect it is the point

sudden and unexpected , many look into revelation and see a chaotic physical world before the end , but Satan is a deceiver the world will be moving on like normal peace and safety in thier minds and then boom

“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:2-3‬ ‭

Paul had no idea when the day would come Jesus didn’t even know the timing of his return. Paul in my view was convinced it was soon , yes he spoke of a falling away for sure and the man of sin being revealed. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t expecting it to happen any day I don’t think but again this is only my own thought and isn’t a point I would contend for because I don’t think it actually matters much

I think that Paul’s doctrine about the day of the lord coming sudden and without warning like a thief comes when one doesn’t expect them is the point I was making .

there’s no seven year period between one rapture and then another which somehow became a pretty popular idea but it isn’t really on scripture that I see seems to me there is one day we are waiting for and it could be tomorrow next week or a thousand years away so we should live as if it could be tomorrow.

it’s about moving us to repentance which is what God is waiting for regardless of the timing

Peter talks about this

“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4, 7-14‬ ‭

if we think of it something tragic could happen tomorrow to any one of us so we should live as if today the lord is coming so we aren’t caught unaware . I think definitely part of the doctrine revolves around expecting the lords return soon .

as they were then left with this word as we still have today

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

personally brother I think Paul was expecting the lord very soon but that’s solely my own thought from scripture and not a point I wish to contend