Who are the NEPHILIM in Genesis 6

Dino246 · Mar 7, 2021

Nothing in that verse says anything about angels being “asexual” or not havIng the ability to mate or reproduce. If we are going to get to a truly biblical understanding of this matter, we must exclude non-biblical speculations from the discussion.

John146 · Mar 7, 2021

Major said:

All angels are male, therefore are incapable of marrying in heaven.

Scribe · Mar 7, 2021

KingdomBrat said:

They were destroyed because the iniquity of the Amorites had become full. The sons of Anak were not judged because they were giants, but all of these nations/tribes that were devoted to utter destruction was because of there wickedness. It was a judgment because they were given over to their wickedness not a judgment on their genetics which no man can help.

The men of Sodom did not know they were angels. They thought they were strangers.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”

Strange flesh would refer to them wanting to commit homosexual sin, or also any sexual perversion with people. The phrase is used about strange wives in other context. Forbidden relationships. Strange Flesh. It has nothing to do with angels and the men of Sodom thought they were men not angels therefore the theory that they wanted to have sex with angels has been destroyed and must be abandoned. “Where are the men who came to you tonight?"

KingdomBrat · Mar 7, 2021

This is from the Tanakh:
יחיד = "Nobles" is the translation of the Hebrew cherem [Herem or cherem (Hebrew: חרם, ḥērem)] (occurring only in the plural) = Herem or cherem (Hebrew: חרם, ḥērem), as used in the Tanakh, means 'devote' or 'destroy' in an act of war.

Ultimately, the use of Nobles [specifically Cherem] here in Genesis 6 is to [SIGNIFY] an Act of War.

The Ancient Hebrew [יחיד] wants us to view this as War from the Fallen Sons of God (Job gives 3 examples) upon God Himself by trying to [Destroy God's Creation of Humanity]. This WAR ended with the Flood of Noah!

This is from the KJV:
2 Peter 2 explains the conditions of the [sinful Earth], (before the LAW), including examples of Sodom, and sexual perversions, lusting after [STRANGE flesh (Angel with human)], and the Disobedience by those Angels still chained in a Darkness you can feel engulfed all around you like it's touching you until the Day of judgement!

The rest was opinion and conjecture!

Nehemiah6 · Mar 7, 2021

Major said:

What I think is that you are beating a dead horse, with yet another thread on the Nephilim. Only the Nephilim must be getting a kick out of all this inordinate attention directed at them. Since senile Biden's comments on the Neanderthals, perhaps you can focus on those people instead. Who is a Neanderthal -- the one who reverts back to the worst possible outcomes or the one who does not? Looks like Biden is being the Neanderthal.

Major · Mar 7, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

Then my suggestion is that you do not participate in this one. It will be my loss from not being able to grow from your input!

Major · Mar 7, 2021

Scribe said:

They were destroyed because the iniquity of the Amorites had become full. The sons of Anak were not judged because they were giants, but all of these nations/tribes that were devoted to utter destruction was because of there wickedness. It was a judgment because they were given over to their wickedness not a judgment on their genetics which no man can help.

The men of Sodom did not know they were angels. They thought they were strangers.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”

Strange flesh would refer to them wanting to commit homosexual sin, or also any sexual perversion with people. The phrase is used about strange wives in other context. Forbidden relationships. Strange Flesh. It has nothing to do with angels and the men of Sodom thought they were men not angels therefore the theory that they wanted to have sex with angels has been destroyed and must be abandoned. “Where are the men who came to you tonight?"

I agree. I am glad you are on the right understanding that the "Sons of God" can not be demons who mated with human females.

Major · Mar 7, 2021

John146 said:

The point that Jesus was making...I think, is that WE who go to heaven at the 1st resurrection, while in heaven will be LIKE THE ANGELS and will not have a sexual relationship with our wives in heaven.

He was saying.........Angels do not have sex so therefore the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6 can not be fallen angels.

Live4Him · Mar 7, 2021

Scribe said:

Hi, Scribe.

As much as I don't want to possibly derail this thread (I have faith that you and I won't allow that to happen), I definitely don't want to start a new thread in order to answer your question because I know that people will jump in and start a war WITHOUT even reading my full response to you.

That said, I'm going to answer your question here and now.

My answer will be rather lengthy, and that is deliberate on my part.

Many years ago, I heard someone say that "a text, out of context, is a pretext", and I totally agree with that statement.

In other words, if we don't look at texts of scripture within their actual context, then we can easily come away with a pretext or with something that conceals the true intent or purpose of the author who actually penned the text.

With that introduction behind us, here is my extremely contextual reply to your question:

I Thessalonians chapter 1

[1] Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
[4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
[11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
[12] That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Thessalonian Christians were enduring persecutions and tribulations (vs. 4) or suffering for the kingdom of God’s sake (vs. 5).

Paul told them that God would righteously recompense or repay those who were causing them tribulation with tribulation (vs. 6), and he also foretold them of a future “rest with us”, with this “us” including Paul himself, that would transpire “WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY (vss. 6-10).

In other words, “in that day” (vs. 10), or on the very same day “when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels” (vs. 7), two things will happen:

Jesus will take vengeance, in flaming fire, on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (vs. 8).
Jesus will be glorified in his saints, and be admired in all them that believe (vs. 9), and the saints, including Paul himself, will enter into his “rest” on that specific “day” (vs. 10), and NOT A SECOND BEFORE “that day” (vs. 10).

THIS is the “day”, contextually, that Paul is speaking of, and there is no 7-year timeframe separating these events (the “pre-tribulation rapture” hoax), nor is there a 3 ½-year timeframe separating these events (the “mid-tribulation rapture” hoax).

In fact, according to scripture, the actual time of “great tribulation” is only 3 ½ years, so the proponents of both of the two hoaxes that I just mentioned don’t even attribute the correct timelines to their respective hoaxes.

Anyhow, with the reality that Paul is speaking of a specific “day” before us, we can now look at chapter 2 IN CONTEXT.

We read:

II Thessalonians chapter 2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here, Paul is still talking about the same exact “day” that we just covered or “the day of Christ” (vs. 2).

Again, at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, the saints will be “gathered unto him” (vs. 1), and Paul warned the Christians at Thessalonica to “be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand” (vs. 2).

Well, so much for the heretical teaching which is propagated by many which insists that Paul believed in the imminent return of Christ.

In reality, unlike so many professing Christians today, Paul understood that certain events must PRECEDE Christ’s “coming” and “our gathering together unto him” (again, this “OUR” included the apostle Paul), and he continued on to properly explain what those certain events are.

We read:

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul reminded these Thessalonian Christians of the things that he told them when he was previously with them (vs. 5) or to “let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY” (vs. 3), the “day of Christ” (vs. 2) that he was speaking of in context, or the same “day” in which the saints shall enter into “rest” and the wicked shall be punished as we’ve already covered, SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (vss. 3-4).

Paul plainly stated that two things must happen FIRST before “the day of Christ” (vs. 2) can come, or truly be “at hand”, or near.

Those two things are as follows:

A “falling away” (vs. 3), apostasia in the underlying Greek, or apostasy.
The “man of sin” or antichrist must “be revealed” and “sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (vss. 3-4).

Let me pause briefly to say something very important in relation to point #2.

Unlike many professing Christians today, Paul (and Jesus, the apostles, and the prophets) understood that God, throughout the ages, has been foretelling of a time, at Christ’s second coming, when Jesus will reign over this earth from within a temple in Jerusalem.

For example, we read:

Luke chapter 1

[26] And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
[27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
[29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
[32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
[33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Again, at his second coming, Christ will take his rightful place, as the prophesied “son of David”, upon a throne within a temple in Jerusalem from which he shall reign.

With such being the case, Satan, who has long-desired to receive the worship that is due unto Christ, has also long-desired to sit in this seat which Christ will rightfully claim at his second coming, and Satan will actually have that seat, albeit for a very short period of time (3 ½ years), in the person of the antichrist or “that man of sin…the son of perdition” (II Thess. 2:3) PRIOR TO Christ’s second coming.

Sad to say, although Paul said to “let no man deceive you by any means” (II Thess. 2:3) in relation to the events which must transpire BEFORE Christ returns, MULTITUDES of professing Christians believe and teach things totally contrary to what Paul (and others) actually believed and taught.

(continued in the next post)

Live4Him · Mar 7, 2021

(continued from the previous post)

Continuing on in II Thessalonians chapter 2, we read:

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

THIS is where many (most?) professing Christians take a wrong turn or basically fall off a cliff and into all sorts of erroneous beliefs.

IN CONTEXT, who is this “he” who is being “withheld” from being “revealed in his time”?

Is it Christ who will be “revealed from heaven” (II Thess. 1:7) or is it “that man of sin”, the antichrist, who must also “be revealed” (II Thess. 2:3)?

THE CORRECT ANSWER to this most important question is Christ…and NOT the antichrist.

In other words, in everything that Paul said leading up to this comment (Remember: A text, out of context, is a pretext), he was reminding the Christians at Thessalonica what events must transpire BEFORE “the day of Christ” (vs. 2) can come, and these are the things that were “withholding” Christ from “being revealed in his time” (vs. 6).

Again, the verse begins with “And NOW ye know what withholdeth” (vs. 6).

Why “NOW ye know”?

Well, because he had just finished explaining to them the precise things which were “withholding” CHRIST from being “revealed in his time” (vs. 6).

If you or anybody else misses THIS REALITY, then you’re bound to come away with a faulty understanding of the verses which immediately follow.

Again, BOTH a falling away or apostasy AND a revealing of the antichrist MUST PRECEDE Christ’s “being revealed in his time”.

In light of THE FACT that the antichrist’s coming must PRECEDE Christ’s second coming (he only comes twice, and he already came once), and in light of THE FACT that the antichrist hadn’t yet come and was therefore WITHHOLDING or HOLDING BACK Christ’s “revealing” or second coming, Paul went on to say:

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Paul rightly noted that “the mystery of iniquity doth already work”, or that “the spirit of antichrist” was “already in the world” (I John 4:3).

In other words, in the same manner in which “the mystery of godliness” (I Tim. 3:16) pertains to Christ, “the mystery of iniquity” pertains to the antichrist.

Although “the mystery of iniquity” or “the spirit of antichrist” was “already” at “work” in Paul’s day, “he”, THE ANTICHRIST HIMSELF, “who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way”.

We need to pause here to clarify a couple of things.

“Letteth” is an old English word, katechō in the underlying Greek, that means “to hold back” or, as we’ve already been discussing, “to withhold”.

You can verify this for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2722&t=KJV

With such being the case, just for the sake of clarity, let’s look again at verse 7 with clarifying parentheses added by me:

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (withholds) will let (withhold), until he be taken out of the way. - Parentheses mine.

Paul is still talking about the very same “withholder” or THE ANTICHRIST who is “withholding” Christ’s revelation from heaven because he needs to be revealed FIRST.

You’re probably thinking to yourself right about now:

Wait a minute!

Wait a minute!

What about the “until he be taken out of the way” part?

If what you’re saying is true, then how the hell is the antichrist going to be “taken out of the way”?

Well, I’m glad that you asked…even though you didn’t…lol.

This brings us to clarifying point #2.

“Until he be taken out of the way” is a HORRIFIC MISTRANSLATION of the underlying Greek text.

Here’s the deal.

I doubt that there is a stauncher advocate of the King James Version of the Bible anywhere on the face of this earth than me.

That said, I’m really much more a staunch advocate of the underlying Greek from which it is translated than I am of its translation into English at times.

In this particular instance, this translation of “taken out of the way” is a HORRIFIC MISTRANSLATION OF THE UNDERLYING GREEK, and, as a direct result of THIS REALITY that I’m about to prove, all sorts of heretical beliefs presently exist within professing Christendom.

Okay, so I made an allegation, and the burden of proof is upon me, so here we go.

The underlying Greek word which is here translated as “taken” is ginomai, and it appears 676 times in the Textus Receptus or in the underlying Greek text of the King James Bible.

In every single instance where this Greek word is translated into English in the KJB, EXCEPT FOR THIS ONE, it is translated into such words as “be”, “become”, “come”, “come to pass”, etc., etc., etc., and you can verify that for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1096&t=KJV

In other words, it ALWAYS pertains to something “coming”, or “appearing in history”, or “coming upon the stage”, and it never, and I mean NEVER, pertains to something “leaving”, “disappearing”, or “being taken away”.

NEVER.

Why in the world it is translated as “taken” in this particular verse of scripture is a mystery to me, but it’s truly NOT a proper translation by any stretch of one’s imagination.

Furthermore, the translation of “out of the way” leaves much to be desired as well.

Here, the underlying Greek word which is translated as “way” is mesos, and this Greek word appears 61 times in the Textus Receptus or in the underlying Greek text of the KJB.

In two thirds of its appearances, it is translated into English as “midst”, and elsewhere it is translated into English as “among” or “from among”, and you can verify that for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3319&t=KJV

With this information before us, what is translated as “taken out of the way” should really be translated as “appears in the midst”, or “comes from among”, or something similar.

Again, in the underlying Greek, this is how this truly reads, and I’ve provided you with the links whereby you can verify this for yourself.

(continue in my next post...you need to skip a post in between)

Major · Mar 7, 2021

KingdomBrat said:

That is a very "unique" position which is as I am sure you know totally unbiblical. I do not believe I have ever seen anyone try to do that.

Genesis 1:24, ...........
"And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so."

In plain English that means humans produce humans. Bears produce Bears. Pigs produce Pigs. Birds produce birds. Fish produce fish and so on and so on.

Spirits can not mate with humans and produce half breeds.

Live4Him · Mar 7, 2021

(continued from the previous post)

With such being the case, here is how II Thessalonians 2:7 should actually read:

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (withholds) will let (withhold), until he be taken out of the way (appears in the midst, or comes from among, or something similar). – Parentheses mine.

Of course, if we translate this verse properly, then it makes perfect sense.

Not only in relation to everything that Paul had been saying up to this point in relation to how the antichrist was withholding Christ from being revealed because he must be revealed first, but also in relation to what Paul continued on to say.

Again, we read:

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

If we properly understand that verse 7 is talking about the antichrist “letting” or withholding Christ from being revealed because he, the antichrist, hasn’t “appeared in the midst” or “come from among” yet, then it makes perfect sense that Paul went on to say “and THEN shall that wicked be revealed” because this is precisely when the antichrist will be revealed.

With this understanding before us, as I said to you previously, “he who now letteth”, IN CONTEXT, is definitely NOT Michael the archangel.

The only allusion to Michael at all in anything that Paul wrote up until this point is that Michael will be included among the number of “his mighty angels” (II Thess. 1:7) at Christ's second coming, with the “his” obviously referring to Christ.

Here’s something else that we need to understand to help put this whole “rapture to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb” nonsense that so many have been duped into believing to rest.

Those who teach two more appearings of Christ, one allegedly only in the air, and one where he actually touches down upon this earth, play games with Greek words in order to deceive the saints and promote their false doctrine.

In other words, they claim that Christ’s parousia and his epiphaneia are two separate and distinct appearings, but Paul put that heretical nonsense to rest in what we just read.

What do I mean by this?

Let’s look at verse 8 again.

We read:

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The underlying Greek word which is here translated as “brightness” is epiphaneia, and the underlying Greek word which is here translated as “coming” is parousia, and you can verify that for yourself here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2th/2/8/p0/t_conc_1118008

In other words, Christ’s epiphaneia and Christ’s parousia ARE ONE AND THE SAME EVENT, and they both pertain to his second coming because, as I rightly stated earlier, he’s only coming TWICE, and he already came once:

Hebrews chapter 9

[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Well, I know that I gave you a lot to read, research, and hopefully consider before the Lord, but I trust that I’ve at least answered your question in all that I’ve presented here thus far.

Thanks for taking the time to read it.

Live4Him · Mar 7, 2021

Well, I'm sorry that I had to chop my response into three parts.

Being new here, I wasn't aware of length restrictions.

Major · Mar 7, 2021

Live4Him said:

Hi, Scribe.

As much as I don't want to possibly derail this thread (I have faith that you and I won't allow that to happen), I definitely don't want to start a new thread in order to answer your question because I know that people will jump in and start a war WITHOUT even reading my full response to you.

That said, I'm going to answer your question here and now.

My answer will be rather lengthy, and that is deliberate on my part.

Many years ago, I heard someone say that "a text, out of context, is a pretext", and I totally agree with that statement.

In other words, if we don't look at texts of scripture within their actual context, then we can easily come away with a pretext or with something that conceals the true intent or purpose of the author who actually penned the text.

With that introduction behind us, here is my extremely contextual reply to your question:

I Thessalonians chapter 1

[1] Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
[4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
[11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
[12] That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Thessalonian Christians were enduring persecutions and tribulations (vs. 4) or suffering for the kingdom of God’s sake (vs. 5).

Paul told them that God would righteously recompense or repay those who were causing them tribulation with tribulation (vs. 6), and he also foretold them of a future “rest with us”, with this “us” including Paul himself, that would transpire “WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY (vss. 6-10).

In other words, “in that day” (vs. 10), or on the very same day “when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels” (vs. 7), two things will happen:

Jesus will take vengeance, in flaming fire, on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (vs. 8).
Jesus will be glorified in his saints, and be admired in all them that believe (vs. 9), and the saints, including Paul himself, will enter into his “rest” on that specific “day” (vs. 10), and NOT A SECOND BEFORE “that day” (vs. 10).

THIS is the “day”, contextually, that Paul is speaking of, and there is no 7-year timeframe separating these events (the “pre-tribulation rapture” hoax), nor is there a 3 ½-year timeframe separating these events (the “mid-tribulation rapture” hoax).

In fact, according to scripture, the actual time of “great tribulation” is only 3 ½ years, so the proponents of both of the two hoaxes that I just mentioned don’t even attribute the correct timelines to their respective hoaxes.

Anyhow, with the reality that Paul is speaking of a specific “day” before us, we can now look at chapter 2 IN CONTEXT.

We read:

II Thessalonians chapter 2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here, Paul is still talking about the same exact “day” that we just covered or “the day of Christ” (vs. 2).

Again, at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, the saints will be “gathered unto him” (vs. 1), and Paul warned the Christians at Thessalonica to “be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand” (vs. 2).

Well, so much for the heretical teaching which is propagated by many which insists that Paul believed in the imminent return of Christ.

In reality, unlike so many professing Christians today, Paul understood that certain events must PRECEDE Christ’s “coming” and “our gathering together unto him” (again, this “OUR” included the apostle Paul), and he continued on to properly explain what those certain events are.

We read:

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul reminded these Thessalonian Christians of the things that he told them when he was previously with them (vs. 5) or to “let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY” (vs. 3), the “day of Christ” (vs. 2) that he was speaking of in context, or the same “day” in which the saints shall enter into “rest” and the wicked shall be punished as we’ve already covered, SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (vss. 3-4).

Paul plainly stated that two things must happen FIRST before “the day of Christ” (vs. 2) can come, or truly be “at hand”, or near.

Those two things are as follows:

A “falling away” (vs. 3), apostasia in the underlying Greek, or apostasy.
The “man of sin” or antichrist must “be revealed” and “sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (vss. 3-4).

Let me pause briefly to say something very important in relation to point #2.

Unlike many professing Christians today, Paul (and Jesus, the apostles, and the prophets) understood that God, throughout the ages, has been foretelling of a time, at Christ’s second coming, when Jesus will reign over this earth from within a temple in Jerusalem.

For example, we read:

Luke chapter 1

[26] And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
[27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
[29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
[32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
[33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Again, at his second coming, Christ will take his rightful place, as the prophesied “son of David”, upon a throne within a temple in Jerusalem from which he shall reign.

With such being the case, Satan, who has long-desired to receive the worship that is due unto Christ, has also long-desired to sit in this seat which Christ will rightfully claim at his second coming, and Satan will actually have that seat, albeit for a very short period of time (3 ½ years), in the person of the antichrist or “that man of sin…the son of perdition” (II Thess. 2:3) PRIOR TO Christ’s second coming.

Sad to say, although Paul said to “let no man deceive you by any means” (II Thess. 2:3) in relation to the events which must transpire BEFORE Christ returns, MULTITUDES of professing Christians believe and teach things totally contrary to what Paul (and others) actually believed and taught.

(continued in the next post)

Now......could those Scriptures yo uPosted simply be telling us that if a man has heard the gospel today, rejects the gospel today and the Rapture takes place tonight, that man who heard and rejected Christ can not then be saved after the Rapture??????

1. 2 Thess. 2:3 = A Falling Away.
2. Rapture
No one can come to Christ who has heard and rejected Christ.
3. A/C revealed
4.7 year Tribulation
5. Armgaddon.

John146 · Mar 7, 2021

Major said:

The point that he was making is that all angels are male. Can you point to one female angel in Scripture? Males cannot be married to other males.

Angels are sons of God. See Job 38.

Live4Him · Mar 7, 2021

P.S.

In the first part of my response, I accidentally attributed my opening verses to I Thessalonians chapter 1.

Of course, that should have read II Thessalonians chapter 1.

Sorry...

Live4Him · Mar 7, 2021

Major said:

Simply put, because there is no rapture to heaven.

For example, in Paul's first epistle to these same Thessalonians, he wrote:

I Thessalonians chapter 4

[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In verse 15, Jesus is COMING.

In verse 16, Jesus is DESCENDING.

In verse 14, Jesus is bringing those "which sleep" or Christians who have died and gone to heaven "with him" IN HIS COMING OR DESCENT FROM HEAVEN.

In verse 17, the saints "which are alive and remain" AT THE TIME OF CHRIST'S COMING OR DESCENT AS HE BRINGS THE DEAD SAINTS WITH HIM FROM HEAVEN are "caught up" or raptured "together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air".

Okay.

It's your turn.

Where's the alleged U-TURN BACK TO HEAVEN?

It isn't there because it's never happening.

As I said in my response to Scribe, as bad as it is that many (most?) professing Christians don't know WHEN Christ is coming, even more have no clue whatsoever as to WHY he's coming.

He's not coming to allegedly whisk people away to heaven.

Instead, he's coming to establish the kingdom of God here on earth, even as he taught his disciples to pray.

This TRUTH becomes even more apparent when we look at something similar that Paul wrote to the saints at Corinth.

We read:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

It's the same scenario that we just read about in I Thessalonians chapter 4.

Jesus is coming, and the dead in Christ or those he's BRINGING WITH HIM FROM HEAVEN get their glorified bodies first, and then the saints who are yet alive get their glorified bodies as well.

For what purpose?

For the exact purpose that Paul just stated:

"Now this I say, brethren, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; NEITHER DOTH CORRUPTION INHERIT INCORRUPTION." (I Cor. 15:50)

THIS is why we need glorified bodies.

To INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS COMING.

Again, where's the alleged U-TURN BACK TO HEAVEN?

It's not there because it's never happening.

Seriously, just pause for a moment, and ask yourself (better yet, ask God) the following question:

If the saints who have died, say Paul for example who died more than 1900 years ago, have been in heaven without glorified bodies since the time that they died, why would they suddenly need glorified bodies IN HEAVEN?

The correct answer, of course, is that they don't.

Furthermore, Paul said that what we just read transpires "at the last trump".

Therefore, this cannot possibly transpire before the seventh angel sounds his seventh or "last trump" in the book of Revelation, nor could it possibly transpire before the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31) which sounds "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29) or else it is NOT "the last trump".

Anyhow, I've got to head out for an hour or two, so I'll check back later.

P.S. The tribulation period is 3 1/2 years, NOT 7, and I'll be happy to prove that from scripture, if need be.

Scribe · Mar 7, 2021

Live4Him said:

I read it all. It was interesting. However I was not convinced. Mostly I find that it is suggesting that we are waiting for the revelation of the Antichrist rather than the revelation of Christ which is not what I believe Paul was teaching. Though I can understand why someone might think that.

I still think maybe Michael is the "he" in the "he who letteth". I think that Paul had taught them about Daniel on a previous occasion and explained the prophesies about the coming Wicked One and the relationship to the antichrist and the resurrection of those who have died in Christ. Dan 12 comes to mind.

After reading your presentation I still agree with the idea that is popular that he was letting them know that what they had heard (possibly from letters proposing to be from the apostles) that they had already entered into the day of the Lord and missed the promise of the resurrection, and he pointed out that the Wicked One would have been revealed if that were so.

And that this prophesy will be triggered by 'he that holds back, no longer holding back,' which matches Daniel and the Standing up of Michael which releases the great tribulation.

I do not think that what Paul taught them was to look for the revelation of the Antichrist but rather to understand that if they were already entered into the tribulation of Daniel which is The Day of the Lord then that Wicked One would be doing his seemingly supernatural signs of deception upon the world, etc. etc. All these things he is talking about can be found in the pages of Daniel and Paul must have expounded on them previously and was reminding them of what he had taught them.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

What I think is that we should be able to use this letter of Paul and go read Daniel and we will notice what he was talking about. And I think I see it in the standing up of Michael. I know that is not a well known interpretation, and it might be wrong. It is what I find to be very possible and I like it better than your theory or the one about the Holy Spirit and the Rapture.

I know I said "I think" often and I don't need to be scolded for it. We all have theories about our interpretation on this one. We all are "thinking" the question is which pattern of thinking is closer to the correct interpretation. After reading your theory I still like mine better. But thanks for answering. Now let the "derail" begin. LOL

Nehemiah6 · Mar 7, 2021

Scribe said:

Christians are neither waiting for the revelation of the Antichrist (which comes first) nor the revelation of Christ at His Second Coming (which follows after about 7 years). Christians are waiting for the Resurrection/Rapture, which must precede the revelation of the Antichrist.

Live4Him · Mar 7, 2021

Major said:

Ummm, I don't know how to tell you this, but NOBODY is "going to heaven at the 1st resurrection".

We read:

Revelation chapter 20

[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In Revelation chapter 19, Christ returns FROM HEAVEN TO THIS EARTH WITH HIS SAINTS, and this is "the FIRST resurrection".

Furthermore, "the FIRST resurrection" ushers in the Millennial Reign of Christ RIGHT HERE ON EARTH, so, like I said earlier. NOBODY is "going to heaven at the 1st resurrection".

Further still, seeing how this truly is "the FIRST resurrection", and seeing how it coincides with CHRIST'S RETURN FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS SAINTS TO THIS EARTH, there couldn't possibly have been a previous "resurrection" in either an alleged "pre-tribulation rapture" or an alleged "mid-tribulation rapture" or else this would not truly be "the FIRST resurrection".

Jesus only taught of two resurrections, and this whole "rapture to heaven" garbage requires THREE.

For example, Jesus said:

John chapter 5

[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice that Jesus did NOT say "they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTIONS", plural, "of life" because there is only ONE "resurrection of life", and it coincides with Christ's second coming (he only comes twice, and he already came once) and his ushering in of his Millennial Reign RIGHT HERE ON EARTH WITH HIS SAINTS.

"The resurrection of damnation" takes place after Christ's Millennial Reign has ended (Rev. 20:12-15).

Along these same lines, Paul taught:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

There is God's order of resurrections concerning the righteous.

1. "Christ the firstfruits" or the first to be raised from the dead unto eternal life.
2. "Afterward they that are Christ's at his COMING", SINGULAR.

The Bible only teaches two comings of Christ:

Hebrews chapter 9

[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

"Christ was ONCE OFFERED to bear the sins of many" AT HIS FIRST COMING.

"He shall appear THE SECOND TIME", not the second and third times which is what this whole "rapture to heaven" nonsense requires, "without sin unto salvation" AT HIS SECOND COMING.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

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