Faith without works issue .

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crossnote

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Faith itself is A work we must be in Jesus Christ efforts not our own.
That would be biblically contradictory...

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
L

Live4Him

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I love it how people try to use an act Abraham did decades after God declaired him righteous as the means of his salvation.

I am suprised God had to wait so long before abraham offered his son to know if his faith was justified or not.

I guess thank God he did not die in between those times, he would have been lost forever,
Thankfully, Abram/Abraham truly was righteous and saved in God's eyes PRIOR TO his attempted sacrifice of Isaac.

As Paul so rightly stated:

Romans chapter 4

[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
[9] Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[10] How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[11] And he received the sign of circumcision, A SEAL OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE FAITH WHICH HE HAD YET BEING UNCIRCUMCISED: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

I could comment on so many things here, but I'll just point out THE FACT that Abram/Abraham had "the righteousness of the faith" BEFORE he was circumcised or "yet being uncircumcised".

Of course, we know that Abram/Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born (Gen. 16:16), and that both he and Ishmael were circumcised when Ishmael was 13 years old or when Abram/Abraham was 99 years old (Gen. 17:24-25), and, obviously, the attempted sacrifice of Isaac didn't take place until at least several years later, and Abram/Abraham had "THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE FAITH" prior to all of these things.

With such truly being the case, if anybody ever tries to convince you that Abram/Abraham wasn't righteous and saved BY FAITH prior to his attempted sacrifice of Isaac, then know, of a certainty, that they are out of their heretical minds.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Just so that I can better understand what you, Guojing (I don't need anybody else answering for you), actually believe, can you please elaborate on your use of the word "us" in what I quoted?

Does this "us" mean New Testament Christians, believing Gentiles, something else...?

Please be as specific in your response as you can be so I don't somehow miscomprehend what you're saying.

For example, if your "us" refers to New Testament Christians, then does that pertain to both believing Israelites/Jews and Gentiles alike.

In other words, please tell me specifically what you believe a Gentile needs to do TODAY to be saved, and specifically what an Israelite or Jew needs to do TODAY to be saved.

Thank you.
Us means all of us in the Body of Christ.

Both Jews and gentiles are now saved in the same manner, thru the Body of Christ (Romans 11:11, Romans 16:25).
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Perhaps you need to look up the definition of 'justify' yourself, (i already gave you a definition) to declare righteous.
Impute=counted as righteous. I think you are trying to pick a fight when there is none.
I'd suggest you build your theology of Justification from Romans chapters 1 through 4 rather than James 2:14-26. Just a suggestion.
If James followed your same premise that righteousness = justification, why would he say the following in James 2?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Surely James would know that Abraham believed God many years before he offered Isaac. So he agreed that faith/belief was the reason for the imputation of righteousness, as he stated in vs 23.

Yet, he immediately concluded in the next verse that his justification was actually by works.
 
L

Live4Him

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If James followed your same premise that righteousness = justification, why would he say the following in James 2?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Surely James would know that Abraham believed God many years before he offered Isaac. So he agreed that faith/belief was the reason for the imputation of righteousness, as he stated in vs 23.

Yet, he immediately concluded in the next verse that his justification was actually by works.
I have to do a quick "hit and run" because I only have a minute, but can't you see that James truly did say that "righteousness = justification"?

Just read verse 24 again:

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You seem to be reading this verse as if it said:

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith", but it actually ends with "and not by faith ONLY".

In other words, James wasn't denying that Abram/Abraham was "justified by faith" or that righteousness was imputed unto him when he believed God.

Instead, he's just saying that he wasn't "justified by faith ONLY".

Again, if you go back to previous posts that I've made here and actually take the time to read them, then you will see that there were two aspects to Abram's/Abraham's "belief" in relation to his "seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

Quickly, here is the account:

Genesis chapter 15

[1] After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
[2] And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
[3] And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
[4] And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[6] And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Again, Abram's/Abraham's "seed" (vs. 5) "is Christ" (Gal. 3:16)

With such being the case, when God told Abram/Abraham, "Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be", he was actually telling him that the number of Christians, in that "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29), was ultimately going to be like the stars in number.

THIS is what's actually transpiring here.

The first aspect of Abram's/Abraham's "belief" was in relation to his coming "seed, which is Christ", and this is what made him righteous in God's eyes to begin with.

The second aspect of Abram's/Abraham's "belief" pertained to his "seed, which is Christ" not only coming through his descendancy, but also through the lineage of Isaac.

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Gen. 21:12)

In relation to this second aspect, Abram's/Abraham's "belief" wasn't tested until the time came that God told him to sacrifice Isaac, and he attempted to do so. In other words, he had such a "belief" or such "faith" in God's promise that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" that he believed that God would have to raise Isaac from the dead in order to fulfill his promise. This second aspect is where the "works" part of justification comes into play, but it in no way, shape, or form negates the first aspect or the righteousness which was imputed unto him by faith PRIOR TO this point in time.

Anyhow, I rushed that response because I'm busy with other things right now, but I hope that it makes sense.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I have to do a quick "hit and run" because I only have a minute, but can't you see that James truly did say that "righteousness = justification"?

Just read verse 24 again:

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You seem to be reading this verse as if it said:

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith", but it actually ends with "and not by faith ONLY".

In other words, James wasn't denying that Abram/Abraham was "justified by faith" or that righteousness was imputed unto him when he believed God.

Instead, he's just saying that he wasn't "justified by faith ONLY".

Again, if you go back to previous posts that I've made here and actually take the time to read them, then you will see that there were two aspects to Abram's/Abraham's "belief" in relation to his "seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

Quickly, here is the account:

Genesis chapter 15

[1] After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
[2] And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
[3] And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
[4] And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[6] And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Again, Abram's/Abraham's "seed" (vs. 5) "is Christ" (Gal. 3:16)

With such being the case, when God told Abram/Abraham, "Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be", he was actually telling him that the number of Christians, in that "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29), was ultimately going to be like the stars in number.

THIS is what's actually transpiring here.

The first aspect of Abram's/Abraham's "belief" was in relation to his coming "seed, which is Christ", and this is what made him righteous in God's eyes to begin with.

The second aspect of Abram's/Abraham's "belief" pertained to his "seed, which is Christ" not only coming through his descendancy, but also through the lineage of Isaac.

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Gen. 21:12)

In relation to this second aspect, Abram's/Abraham's "belief" wasn't tested until the time came that God told him to sacrifice Isaac, and he attempted to do so. In other words, he had such a "belief" or such "faith" in God's promise that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" that he believed that God would have to raise Isaac from the dead in order to fulfill his promise. This second aspect is where the "works" part of justification comes into play, but it in no way, shape, or form negates the first aspect or the righteousness which was imputed unto him by faith PRIOR TO this point in time.

Anyhow, I rushed that response because I'm busy with other things right now, but I hope that it makes sense.
I was comparing vs 23 and vs 24, and I noted that Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6, years before he offered Isaac, something James would have also known.

You are only looking at vs 24.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
I was comparing vs 23 and vs 24, and I noted that Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6, years before he offered Isaac, something James would have also known.

You are only looking at vs 24.
I understand that.

I specifically mentioned vs 24 because it says that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith ONLY".

Again, Abram/Abraham, according to this verse, was "JUSTIFIED...by faith", and James basically used that interchangeably with "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (vs. 23), so when crossnote equated the two, justification and righteousness, he was doing exactly what James did.

That was one of my intended points.

Gotta go.

Good night.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I understand that.

I specifically mentioned vs 24 because it says that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith ONLY".

Again, Abram/Abraham, according to this verse, was "JUSTIFIED...by faith", and James basically used that interchangeably with "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (vs. 23), so when crossnote equated the two, justification and righteousness, he was doing exactly what James did.

That was one of my intended points.

Gotta go.

Good night.
Vs 24 states that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith ONLY".

If you want to read and understand it literally, you have to conclude that James was saying "Abraham, being a man, was justified by works and not by faith only,

instead of concluding, like you did, "Abraham, according to this verse, was "JUSTIFIED...by faith",

But I do understand it can be difficult for someone to read James literally, instead of trying to help him such that he ends up saying the same thing as Paul, as I stated here https://christianchat.com/threads/faith-without-works-issue.197763/post-4504198
 

throughfaith

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Perhaps you need to look up the definition of 'justify' yourself, (i already gave you a definition) to declare righteous.
Impute=counted as righteous. I think you are trying to pick a fight when there is none.
I'd suggest you build your theology of Justification from Romans chapters 1 through 4 rather than James 2:14-26. Just a suggestion.
I realise that's what happens . James gets interpreted through romans .
 

throughfaith

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I was comparing vs 23 and vs 24, and I noted that Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6, years before he offered Isaac, something James would have also known.

You are only looking at vs 24.
Its everything but what James actually says lol 😆
 

throughfaith

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When was Abraham saved ? ( from scripture )Was it Genesis 15? in light Hebrews 11:8, which took place in Genesis 12?
 

throughfaith

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James 2 v Romans 4? Answer :
Old Testament salvation is not like New Testament salvation—before or after the giving of the Law. In the Old Testament (anywhere from Genesis to Malachi, and up until Matt. 27; cf. Heb. 9:16–17),there is no new birth, no spiritual circumcision, no Body of Christ, and no spiritual redemption of an individual sinner. All of those things are afforded to New Testament believers.
 

throughfaith

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Fact: You are saved, justified, redeemed, and sanctified in one shot. Fact: Abraham wasn’t
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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James 2 v Romans 4? Answer :
Old Testament salvation is not like New Testament salvation—before or after the giving of the Law. In the Old Testament (anywhere from Genesis to Malachi, and up until Matt. 27; cf. Heb. 9:16–17),there is no new birth, no spiritual circumcision, no Body of Christ, and no spiritual redemption of an individual sinner. All of those things are afforded to New Testament believers.
James 1:18 CSB
[18] By his own choice, he gave us birth by the word of truth so that we would be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
 

throughfaith

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When James wrote James 2:21, he was not writing New Testament doctrine for the Body of Christ. He was writing to “the twelve tribes” of Israel (James 1:1) in the Tribulation (Rev. 12:17). Look at James 2:21, “Was not Abraham OUR FATHER....” He is talking to a race of people which could trace their origin back to Abraham. He is not talking about Abraham being the father of “the faithful,” as in Galatians 3.