Scripture that supports soulless humans before Adam

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Jan 21, 2021
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#1
  • “I was beside Him (God) as a master worker… I rejoiced over His habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men”
  • Proverbs 8.30,31

I wonder if “sons of men” could mean there were humans without souls before Adam. Did Jesus want to give these humans souls?

  • “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness”
  • Genesis 1.26

Is there something preventing man from existing first before They made them in Their image? Could, in Their image, mean to have a soul?

Would this destroy the evolution excuse?
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#2
Here's an exhaustive list of all the scriptures that support soulless humans before Adam:







Got it?

Bye...
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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#3
Uh I have not ever heard this before. Proverbs 8 is talking "proverbially" about wisdom.

Here is what I have in the KJV "Then I was by him as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."
Proverbs 8:30-31.

Legit no clue how this relates to a soulless pre-adamic man.


The second verse in Genesis is something typically used to support trinity (as is the one abou the tower of babel) "if" you are drawing attention to the "us" in the verse. I take this verse to mean that the Lord God created humans as different from everything else in creation as a higher order in the physical plane. (i.e different from animals, fish, bugs, reptiles, etc. but regarding angels obviously more to be said and I would rather not without scripture references handy).
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#4
and my delights were with the sons of men."
Proverbs 8:30-31.
Why would Jesus be delighted with the sons of men of the habitable earth? Did He see potential in them?
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
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#5
  • “I was beside Him (God) as a master worker… I rejoiced over His habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men”
  • Proverbs 8.30,31

I wonder if “sons of men” could mean there were humans without souls before Adam. Did Jesus want to give these humans souls?

  • “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness”
  • Genesis 1.26

Is there something preventing man from existing first before They made them in Their image? Could, in Their image, mean to have a soul?

Would this destroy the evolution excuse?
I don't know about "without souls" but in recent months I came to believe there were humans before Adam and Eve.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
2,082
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#7
Why would Jesus be delighted with the sons of men of the habitable earth? Did He see potential in them?
Again, this is a proverb about wisdom as far as I can tell not Jesus "per se". I suppose because there is a delight in that wisdom can be understood by humankind unlike any other element of creation? It "can" be hearkened unto. Is it not a delight to be able to be known by a thing? Perhaps something akin to an animal being "able" to learn English (insert other language of choice here) if they "really" were interested in getting to know their master/owners?

Wisdom is an attribute of the Lord but it is not "himself" if that makes sense. Wisdom is not God but God possesses and is the source of true wisdom...so in reading this proverb it isn't the same as reading John 1:1-4 for instance, leastways I take it as "proverbial" and making a point about the Lord but not specifically "being him" to read it that way I think allows for leaps that don't appear to exist from my perspective.

Scripture is usually MUCH clearer than this when referring to the Lord directly. Maybe do a study of his justice and how it is described similarly. That's the only thing (other than knowledge/understanding) that is coming to mind at present. Let me know if I can assist further. I have to be careful to not go beyond what is written since I like biblical theory but after rereading I still don't even see loosely that this is what the Word is suggesting.


For further consideration maybe read Pr 1:20 for a few verses. Here again is wisdom taking on a sort of sentience. Proably many more instances throughout proverbs but wisdom raising her voice in the street was evident to me. I could find some more if you'd like.
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#8
Again, this is a proverb about wisdom as far as I can tell not Jesus "per se". I suppose because there is a delight in that wisdom can be understood by humankind unlike any other element of creation? It "can" be hearkened unto. Is it not a delight to be able to be known by a thing? Perhaps something akin to an animal being "able" to learn English (insert other language of choice here) if they "really" were interested in getting to know their master/owners?

Wisdom is an attribute of the Lord but it is not "himself" if that makes sense. Wisdom is not God but God possesses and is the source of true wisdom...so in reading this proverb it isn't the same as reading John 1:1-4 for instance, leastways I take it as "proverbial" and making a point about the Lord but not specifically "being him" to read it that way I think allows for leaps that don't appear to exist from my perspective.

Scripture is usually MUCH clearer than this when referring to the Lord directly. Maybe do a study of his justice and how it is described similarly. That's the only thing (other than knowledge/understanding) that is coming to mind at present. Let me know if I can assist further. I have to be careful to not go beyond what is written since I like biblical theory but after rereading I still don't even see loosely that this is what the Word is suggesting.


For further consideration maybe read Pr 1:20 for a few verses. Here again is wisdom taking on a sort of sentience. Proably many more instances throughout proverbs but wisdom raising her voice in the street was evident to me.

I don't know much about the Hebrew translation but you legitimately might be able to see gender in the text in Proverbs 8 like you see it elsewhere in Proverbs (with wisdom being a "her")...I don't know but perhaps someone else may.
The whole section is about the beginning of Jesus https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+8:22-31&version=KJV
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#9
I think it is saying the Creation Week humans didn't have a soul. Jesus saw potential, so they formed a human in Their Image.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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#10
Well refer back to my post...I disagree that it is him "specifically" and even if it were "specifically" (like John 1:1-4) it still doesn't follow that he was talking about a pre-adamic man. Maybe the narrative continues until men began to call on the name of the Lord (Gen 4:26)? Though I feel this is a discourtesy to the text at present.

Besides, I don't really see anything to go on suggesting the Lord saw us first and then decided to elevate us out of all the other animals...the creation account doesn't follow this at all so why would it be hidden in Proverbs?
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#11
Well refer back to my post...I disagree that it is him "specifically" and even if it were "specifically" (like John 1:1-4) it still doesn't follow that he was talking about a pre-adamic man. Maybe the narrative continues until men began to call on the name of the Lord (Gen 4:26)? Though I feel this is a discourtesy to the text at present.

Besides, I don't really see anything to go on suggesting the Lord saw us first and then decided to elevate us out of all the other animals...the creation account doesn't follow this at all so why would it be hidden in Proverbs?
Did the following happen after the first week of Creation?
  • And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
  • 8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
-------------------
  • And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Adam and Eve didn't multiply until after the fall ..so was this about the soulless humans?
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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#12
Idk man, your main post is taking what I see as a personification of wisdom which you think is Jesus specifically. This isn't the best springboard for further discussion on the issue because you don't seem to want that to be up for debate and based off what I'm reading this is a minority view. Which is cool I guess that at least I'm not alone in thinking the way I do about it but you aren't either but from what I see what this view suggests opens up a lot of debatable ground....I think discussing whether this is even speaking of the Word made flesh specifically is more relevant than continuing further without that resolved.

Again, this is a proverb about wisdom as far as I can tell not Jesus "per se". I suppose because there is a delight in that wisdom can be understood by humankind unlike any other element of creation? It "can" be hearkened unto. Is it not a delight to be able to be known by a thing? Perhaps something akin to an animal being "able" to learn English (insert other language of choice here) if they "really" were interested in getting to know their master/owners?
You didn't respond to this at all, but I don't understand how you are so convinced enough that it is talking about Jesus to launch into this theory. Gotta cover home base first. I could continue to think about the verse and why I feel it is not speaking of Jesus specifically and postulate further meanings if that would be helpful. I don't think I can continue much further past that...Obviously people have fantasized a lot from the two creation accounts and I again think this is a disservice to proper textual understanding.
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#13
Idk man, your main post is taking what I see as a personification of wisdom which you think is Jesus specifically. This isn't the best springboard for further discussion on the issue because you don't seem to want that to be up for debate and based off what I'm reading this is a minority view. Which is cool I guess that at least I'm not alone in thinking the way I do about it but you aren't either but from what I see what this view suggests opens up a lot of debatable ground....I think discussing whether this is even speaking of the Word made flesh specifically is more relevant than continuing further without that resolved.



You didn't respond to this at all, but I don't understand how you are so convinced enough that it is talking about Jesus to launch into this theory. Gotta cover home base first. I could continue to think about the verse and why I feel it is not speaking of Jesus specifically and postulate further meanings if that would be helpful. I don't think I can continue much further past that...Obviously people have fantasized a lot from the two creation accounts and I again think this is a disservice to proper textual understanding.
WHO ELSE GETS TO STAND NEXT TO GOD THE FATHER ..while He creates the Universe? You're being ridiculous.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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#14
WHO ELSE GETS TO STAND NEXT TO GOD THE FATHER ..while He creates the Universe? You're being ridiculous.
Mk, your opinion is noted.

Consider reading John 1:1-4 (which I am in agreement with as being specifically about Jesus).

It is clear that we are not seeing eye to eye on what this passage is "proverbially" speaking about or how wisdom is personified here as an attribute of the Lord creatively expressed in this passage...that it was with him from the beginning. I rather like the passage. I don't see it as contradicting the Word in any way when read as being about wisdom.

I have no issues reading this as wisdom being with the Lord from the beginning. I'm not sure why you want to turn that into an additional entity.
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#15
Mk, your opinion is noted.

Consider reading John 1:1-4 (which I am in agreement with as being specifically about Jesus).

It is clear that we are not seeing eye to eye on what this passage is "proverbially" speaking about or how wisdom is personified here as an attribute of the Lord creatively expressed in this passage...that it was with him from the beginning. I rather like the passage. I don't see it as contradicting the Word in any way when read as being about wisdom.

I have no issues reading this as wisdom being with the Lord from the beginning. I'm not sure why you want to turn that into an additional entity.
There is no room for this not to be about Jesus:


Proverbs 8
22 The Lord possessed (created) me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#16
Mk, your opinion is noted.

Consider reading John 1:1-4 (which I am in agreement with as being specifically about Jesus).

It is clear that we are not seeing eye to eye on what this passage is "proverbially" speaking about or how wisdom is personified here as an attribute of the Lord creatively expressed in this passage...that it was with him from the beginning. I rather like the passage. I don't see it as contradicting the Word in any way when read as being about wisdom.

I have no issues reading this as wisdom being with the Lord from the beginning. I'm not sure why you want to turn that into an additional entity.
Could this be hinting that there were soulless humans for fallen Adam and Eve to interact with?
  • Roman's 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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#17
There is plenty of room...I'm not sure why you aren't even attempting to see the merits of this being about wisdom when the rest of the chapter is pretty clear. Like I said, I really can't go any further if you can't even attempt to see things from my perspective.

I'll wait until someone else I'm familiar with chimes in, wisdom being described here in no way sets itself up as anti Christ but putting Jesus as the subject when the rest of the chapter (and most of proverbs) is about wisdom & knowledge & understanding and even common sense puts us into pretty unstable ground and from what I read about shortly before post #12 suggests that it is a tool to attack the divinity of Christ. If "that" read is the basis for this type of thought is it not possible to you that maybe that is the incorrect way to read it?

With the way you are reading this one passage how do you read the rest of Proverbs? Like when wisdom is called a "her". I've been reading Proverbs since I was a child. Rarely has it ever been taught to me and a lot of my understanding is "homegrown" regarding it...I read it like a book of wisdom, not like prophecy or a narrative but as a literary device about wisdom, knowledge, understanding, prudence, etc. etc. If this passage were in Psalms we might be having a different discussion.

On some level though I appreciate it though because it is a decent in depth look into wisdom being foundational in creation and I haven't ever thought about it for any length of time in this fashion because in reading it has become relatively rote and I typically take it for granted and focus on tiny situations and admonition rather than the larger scale (as I usually read the larger scale when I was young).
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#18
Is there a difference between creation of man and the formation of humanity?

Did God create Adam with fallen Earth? Is it similar in that Jesus was "made Him to be sin"? Adam was made of fallen Earth, but it didn't give him the knowledge of the Tree because he was innocent.
  • Genesis 3:19 (King James Version): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Adam was formed of fallen Earth, but originally didn't have to deal with physics of decay, death, and entropy. He was free to be a physical human in the Garden.

When satan fell, did he take the Earth down with him? Did God then decide to start humans that had souls this time? Or did humans have souls before and after satan's fall?
 
Jan 21, 2021
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#19
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

How can there be people that had not sinned to be influenced by original sin?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#20
  • “I was beside Him (God) as a master worker… I rejoiced over His habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men”
  • Proverbs 8.30,31

I wonder if “sons of men” could mean there were humans without souls before Adam. Did Jesus want to give these humans souls?

  • “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness”
  • Genesis 1.26

Is there something preventing man from existing first before They made them in Their image? Could, in Their image, mean to have a soul?

Would this destroy the evolution excuse?
No death before Adam and 6 literal day creation destroys evolution. That and ' Something came from nothing theory .