Not By Works

[VCO]

I would say it is a work but not one which we do but a work which God does in us

That is not exactly correct.

Obedience is a by-product of Agape Love and of Faith, both of which GOD PUT IN US.
It is not that we HAVE TO, it is because WE WANT TO.

Romans 5:5-6 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.

Ephesians 2:7-9 (NJB)
7 This was to show for all ages to come, through his goodness towards us in Christ Jesus, how extraordinarily rich he is in grace.
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Romans 10:8-13 (HCSB)
8 On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
9 If you confess {Not merely Profess} with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” {meaning MASTER} and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart {where GOD has placed HIS AGAPE LOVE}, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
11 Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame,
12 for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him.
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

 

[Phoneman-777]

So do you believe one can have true living faith and never have works?

Jude 4 warned us against false ideas which would turn "the grace of God into licentiousness" by making grace a license to commit sin.

Ezekiel 13:22 said the same heresy existed in his day where false teachers encouraged Israelite men to not return from doing wickedness by "promising him life."

Yet, today OSAS is fast at work telling people grace is a license to sin all we want because it has no effect on our salvation, and promises eternal life to those who want to be saved but also want the freedom to continue in deliberate, known, habitual sin. What a disgusting doctrine of devils which flies in the face of the Savior's ultimatum: "Ye must be born again."

 

[Phoneman-777]

Obedience is a by-product of Agape Love and of Faith, both of which GOD PUT IN US. It is not that we HAVE TO, it is because WE WANT TO.

...which is why those who profess to belong to Christ but engage in deliberate habitual known sin without any remorse or desire to quit evidence they do not have such agape in their hearts and are not going to meet Jesus in peace when He comes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jude 4 warned us against false ideas which would turn "the grace of God into licentiousness" by making grace a license to commit sin.

Ezekiel 13:22 said the same heresy existed in his day where false teachers encouraged Israelite men to not return from doing wickedness by "promising him life."

Yet, today OSAS is fast at work telling people grace is a license to sin all we want because it has no effect on our salvation, and promises eternal life to those who want to be saved but also want the freedom to continue in deliberate, known, habitual sin. What a disgusting doctrine of devils which flies in the face of the Savior's ultimatum: "Ye must be born again."

Dude show some humility and answer my question
do you believe a person can have true saving faith and never have works?

 

[OIC1965]

I would say it is a work but not one which we do but a work which God does in us

ABSOLUTELY!

 

[OIC1965]

Repent and believe is not a work done to earn salvation

circumcision was

he got cut because he was saved and did have faith, not the other way around

we are saved because God brought us to repentance and through his work in our lives trusted in him, he gets the glory not us

we have to remember to take our works of righteousness out of the equation f salvation, he saved us based on his mercy. By grace through faith

Not of him who wills or runs, but of God who shows mercy!

 

[gb9]

Dude show some humility and answer my question
do you believe a person can have true saving faith and never have works?

curious to see if mr. " i don't sin" will give a straight answer to this...

 

[1ofthem]

Dude show some humility and answer my question
do you believe a person can have true saving faith and never have works?

What is considered works? And what would having true saving faith and never have any works mean or look like?

Does that mean the person never changed at all after being "saved"?

 

[CherieR]

What is considered works? And what would having true saving faith and never have any works mean or look like?

Does that mean the person never changed at all after being "saved"?

1ofthem, these are some good questions you asked to @eternally-gratefull .

I was thinking over this and it would seem to me that works would be those actions you take because you love God and trust him. I believe that in the story of Abraham and Isaac that the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice Isaac is a picture of his trust in God and love for God. In the end God prevented Abraham from going through on this by providing the ram. Then Abraham sacrificed the ram.

I think what saving faith without works would look like someone who doesn’t live life with an eternity mindset and whose love for God is not with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. When we do good things, it should be with the right motivation and not to make oneself appear like a good person, or feel better or because you feel forced to help.

With change I believe it can be dramatic or gradual. It may be God working in the heart of the individual on the inside first and then showing light to others on the outside more as one walks with the Lord.

 

[BillG]

Yet, today OSAS is fast at work telling people grace is a license to sin all we want because it has no effect on our salvation, and promises eternal life to those who want to be saved but also want the freedom to continue in deliberate, known, habitual sin. What a disgusting doctrine of devils which flies in the face of the Savior's ultimatum: "Ye must be born again

I really do not get where you get this notion from.

There is not one person on this site that I know off who promotes what you saying and certainly not those in this thread who you are talking to and accusing them of preaching this.

If you believe that people are preaching what you say they do then name and shame.
Me personally if I knew any who were I would come against them.

Yet you blanket everyone who believes in OSAS as preaching grace is a license to sin without being bothered to ask them if they believe this.

Basically you are judging people based on a doctrine you despise and assume they teach the very doctrine you despise.

Why?

 

[BillG]

He was “among” them - willing to associate with an illegal, severely persecuted sect where even something so seemingly innocuous as burying deceased loved ones could get you busted and sentenced to death.

He was likely a backslider who Paul recognized needed the most effective wake up call God can provide: turning one “over to Satan” which can only mean prayer requests for God to allow negative consequences for sin to come.

And again, the operative word is “might”. The text doesn’t say he “will” he saved in the day of the Lord, it says “might” be saved in that day - or possibly lost in that day.

I wasn't talking about "might"

I was asking whether he was saved in the first place.
You assumed he was.
So he fact is that even though he was part of the church doesn't mean he was saved.
So that's not unusual in the church today is it?

 

[1ofthem]

1ofthem, these are some good questions you asked to @eternally-gratefull .

I was thinking over this and it would seem to me that works would be those actions you take because you love God and trust him. I believe that in the story of Abraham and Isaac that the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice Isaac is a picture of his trust in God and love for God. In the end God prevented Abraham from going through on this by providing the ram. Then Abraham sacrificed the ram.

I think what saving faith without works would look like someone who doesn’t live life with an eternity mindset and whose love for God is not with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. When we do good things, it should be with the right motivation and not to make oneself appear like a good person, or feel better or because you feel forced to help.

With change I believe it can be dramatic or gradual. It may be God working in the heart of the individual on the inside first and then showing light to others on the outside more as one walks with the Lord.

Thanks, that is a thoughtful and very good answer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

curious to see if mr. " i don't sin" will give a straight answer to this...

I doubt it, it would expose him

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is considered works? And what would having true saving faith and never have any works mean or look like?

Does that mean the person never changed at all after being "saved"?

That’s a good question, when people look at others and try to determine if they are saved or not what do they look for?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1ofthem, these are some good questions you asked to @eternally-gratefull .

I was thinking over this and it would seem to me that works would be those actions you take because you love God and trust him. I believe that in the story of Abraham and Isaac that the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice Isaac is a picture of his trust in God and love for God. In the end God prevented Abraham from going through on this by providing the ram. Then Abraham sacrificed the ram.

I think what saving faith without works would look like someone who doesn’t live life with an eternity mindset and whose love for God is not with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. When we do good things, it should be with the right motivation and not to make oneself appear like a good person, or feel better or because you feel forced to help.

With change I believe it can be dramatic or gradual. It may be God working in the heart of the individual on the inside first and then showing light to others on the outside more as one walks with the Lord.

I see in the context of James, people who hav no works are hearers and not doers, they went to church, but while there what did they do? Yet most people would claim going to church is a work,

I think that is why so many fail to grasp what James is trying to say

 

[Phoneman-777]

I really do not get where you get this notion from.

There is not one person on this site that I know off who promotes what you saying and certainly not those in this thread who you are talking to and accusing them of preaching this.

If you believe that people are preaching what you say they do then name and shame.
Me personally if I knew any who were I would come against them.

Yet you blanket everyone who believes in OSAS as preaching grace is a license to sin without being bothered to ask them if they believe this.

Basically you are judging people based on a doctrine you despise and assume they teach the very doctrine you despise.

Why?

The OSAS crowd who claims they don't teach grace is a license to sin but won't denounce sin as a threat to salvation...is no different than the Muslim majority who claims they don't advocate Jihad, but won't denounce it either.

Here's your chance:

Can a grace saved, born again...that is, a grace saved born again Christian...not a person who has never been saved, but a grace saved, born again Christian who decides to go back to the world and indulge "the pleasures of sin" for the rest of his days like the dogs back to their vomit or the pigs back to the slop - still go to heaven?

If your answer is "yes", then you believe grace is a license to sin, plain and simple.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I wasn't talking about "might"

I was asking whether he was saved in the first place.
You assumed he was.
So he fact is that even though he was part of the church doesn't mean he was saved.
So that's not unusual in the church today is it?

Of course there are hypocrites in the church - everyone knows that. The issue is whether "turn him over to Satan for destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" is a statement that establishes OSAS.

It does not.

The text says, "might be saved", not "will be saved" as if the text is saying salvation is guaranteed as you claimed it says.

 

[VCO]

Jude 4 warned us against false ideas which would turn "the grace of God into licentiousness" by making grace a license to commit sin.

Ezekiel 13:22 said the same heresy existed in his day where false teachers encouraged Israelite men to not return from doing wickedness by "promising him life."

Yet, today OSAS is fast at work telling people grace is a license to sin all we want because it has no effect on our salvation, and promises eternal life but also want the freedom to continue in deliberate, known, habitual sin. What a disgusting doctrine of devils which flies in the face of the Savior's ultimatum: "Ye must be born again."

I checked your post because you gave a review of my post a WINNER review. And you continue to believe the LIE that OSAS churches teach that telling people grace is a license to sin all we want because it has no effect on our salvation, and promises eternal life, WHICH IS AN ABSOLUTE LIE ABOUT OUR BELIEFS.

Apparently your Denomination taught you that LIE, and they do not even KNOW it is a LIE, and YOU BELIEVED IT HOOK, LINE, AND SINKER. In case you do not know That post of mine was simplified TRUE GOSPEL MESSAGE. And almost Every single OSAS Church teaches it the SAME WAY, and YOU PERSONALLY gave it a review:

Winner

1. [IMG]https://christianchat.com/data/avatars/s/287/287593.jpg?1574736723[/IMG]
   Phoneman-777
   Today at 9:47 AM

You have TOTALLY misunderstood our OSAS Teaching. Let me share with you what we ACTUALLY TEACH.

WE count FAR FEWER BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, and ONLY Born Again Believers are the ONLY Genuine SAVED CHRISTIANS, than obvioulsly you do. JESUS SAID at least TWO times in Mat. 7, "by their FRUIT you will know them". Only Fruit bearing Christians are Truly SAVED. No I am NOT talking about DEEDS, but rather MOTIVE for the Deeds. (Ref. Gal. 5:22-23), and JESUS IS THE CHIEF FRUIT INSPECTOR.

Revelation 2:23 (ESV)
23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.

No we do not teach Deeds are necessary but for Salvation, but the LORD WILL EXAMINE OUR MOTIVES.

IF Agape LOVE IS NOT THE REASON for the DEEDS, it is NOTHING BUT FILTHY RAGS.

That is the reason HE had the APOSTLE WRITE:

John 14:15-17 (HCSB)
15 “If you love {true motive} Me, you will keep My commands.
16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.

AND THIS:

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is {true motive - why we want to} : to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

That IS FOR SURE, what most of the OSAS CHURCHES TEACH AND BELIEVE, so please stop spreading the LIE.

HEAR IS ANOTHER VERSE THAT WE ALL OSAS BELIEVER, absolutely literally BELIEVE.

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

A continuous life style of SIN, only proves you were never part of the True Church or Born Again.

Are we PERFECT? NOT IN THE LEAST, but that is why we have 1 John 1:9 to retreat to, and in fact that verb confess is in the continuous action Greek VERB TENSE. It is a continuous thing that Born Again Christian will want to do, is to confess every new sin he finds in his life.

1 John 1:9 (HCSB)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[CherieR]

That’s a good question, when people look at others and try to determine if they are saved or not what do they look for?

I suppose it depends on the person as to what is looked for. Good question.

 

[OIC1965]

So do you believe one can have true living faith and never have works?

Faith without works is dead, but it is not works that makes faith alive. A dead faith cannot be brought to life by good works any more than a dead body can raise itself. Living faith is a product of the work of the Holy Spirit. Dead faith is lifeless, because it is fleshly and not of the Spirit, but a product of man's vain religion that excludes the power of God.