Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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I don't know that I can get behind this because scripture says otherwise.
For example:
Ecclesiastes 9 states, "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing . . . For there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 5-10).
Daniel 12:2 describes the dead as "those who sleep in the dust of the earth," who later "shall awake" through being resurrected.
Many centuries later the biblical account of the death of Lazarus, a friend of Jesus, illustrates death to be a sleep-like state. "Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany" (John 11:1). Jesus decided to go to him, but, so He could perform a miracle to strengthen His disciples' faith, He waited until Lazarus died.
Before going to Bethany, Jesus discussed the condition of Lazarus with His disciples. He told them Lazarus was asleep and that He was going to awaken him (John 11:11-14). The disciples responded that sleep was good because it would help him get well (John 11:12). Jesus then plainly told them, "Lazarus is dead" (John 11:14). Notice that Jesus stated emphatically that Lazarus was dead, but at the same time He described death as a condition like sleep.
When the time came for Jesus to act, "He cried with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come forth!' And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes...Jesus said to them, 'Loose him, and let him go'" (John 11:43-44).
Lazarus had not gone to heaven or hell. He had been entombed, where he "slept" in death until Jesus called him out of the grave by a miraculous resurrection.
Like Lazarus, everyone enters a figurative state of sleep at death. The dead are unconscious. The common belief is that at death the body goes to the grave and the soul remains conscious and goes either to heaven or hell. Yet as we have seen, this belief is not biblical.
In another reference that describes the state of the dead, Paul refers to the righteous dead who will be resurrected to meet Christ in the air as being "asleep":
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
So those who are in their graves will be resurrected, rising to meet the returning Messiah along with His followers who are then still alive. They all will be caught up in the air to meet Christ in the first resurrection. They will then return to the earth to reign with Him in the Kingdom of God.
That the dead are figuratively in a state of sleep, awaiting the resurrection, "was the prevalent opinion until as late as the 5th century" (D.P. Walker, The Decline of Hell: Seventeenth-Century Discussions of Eternal Torment, 1964, p. 35). The change away from the biblical teaching occurred several centuries after Christ. The plain teaching of the Bible is that the dead are unconscious, waiting in the grave. They are, as Jesus and Paul put it, sleeping. They will not awake until the resurrection.
Even Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant Reformation, wrote at one point: "It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment . . . On what authority can it be said that the souls of the dead may not sleep . . . in the same way that the living pass in profound slumber the interval between their down-lying at night and their uprising in the morning?" (Letter to Nicholas Amsdorf, Jan. 13, 1522, quoted in Jules Michelet, The Life of Luther, translated by William Hazlitt, 1862, p. 133). Yet the Reformation did not embrace the truth that the dead sleep in total unawareness.
Eventually all will arise from this sleep. As Jesus said, the hour is coming "in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5:28-29) Just like Lazarus, we will hear his voice. This is the comforting and encouraging truth revealed in the Scriptures.
When it comes to people seeing heaven and hell, I believe it is their future along with many others after the day of judgement they are shown.
For example:
Ecclesiastes 9 states, "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing . . . For there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 5-10).
Daniel 12:2 describes the dead as "those who sleep in the dust of the earth," who later "shall awake" through being resurrected.
Many centuries later the biblical account of the death of Lazarus, a friend of Jesus, illustrates death to be a sleep-like state. "Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany" (John 11:1). Jesus decided to go to him, but, so He could perform a miracle to strengthen His disciples' faith, He waited until Lazarus died.
Before going to Bethany, Jesus discussed the condition of Lazarus with His disciples. He told them Lazarus was asleep and that He was going to awaken him (John 11:11-14). The disciples responded that sleep was good because it would help him get well (John 11:12). Jesus then plainly told them, "Lazarus is dead" (John 11:14). Notice that Jesus stated emphatically that Lazarus was dead, but at the same time He described death as a condition like sleep.
When the time came for Jesus to act, "He cried with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come forth!' And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes...Jesus said to them, 'Loose him, and let him go'" (John 11:43-44).
Lazarus had not gone to heaven or hell. He had been entombed, where he "slept" in death until Jesus called him out of the grave by a miraculous resurrection.
Like Lazarus, everyone enters a figurative state of sleep at death. The dead are unconscious. The common belief is that at death the body goes to the grave and the soul remains conscious and goes either to heaven or hell. Yet as we have seen, this belief is not biblical.
In another reference that describes the state of the dead, Paul refers to the righteous dead who will be resurrected to meet Christ in the air as being "asleep":
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
So those who are in their graves will be resurrected, rising to meet the returning Messiah along with His followers who are then still alive. They all will be caught up in the air to meet Christ in the first resurrection. They will then return to the earth to reign with Him in the Kingdom of God.
That the dead are figuratively in a state of sleep, awaiting the resurrection, "was the prevalent opinion until as late as the 5th century" (D.P. Walker, The Decline of Hell: Seventeenth-Century Discussions of Eternal Torment, 1964, p. 35). The change away from the biblical teaching occurred several centuries after Christ. The plain teaching of the Bible is that the dead are unconscious, waiting in the grave. They are, as Jesus and Paul put it, sleeping. They will not awake until the resurrection.
Even Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant Reformation, wrote at one point: "It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment . . . On what authority can it be said that the souls of the dead may not sleep . . . in the same way that the living pass in profound slumber the interval between their down-lying at night and their uprising in the morning?" (Letter to Nicholas Amsdorf, Jan. 13, 1522, quoted in Jules Michelet, The Life of Luther, translated by William Hazlitt, 1862, p. 133). Yet the Reformation did not embrace the truth that the dead sleep in total unawareness.
Eventually all will arise from this sleep. As Jesus said, the hour is coming "in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5:28-29) Just like Lazarus, we will hear his voice. This is the comforting and encouraging truth revealed in the Scriptures.
When it comes to people seeing heaven and hell, I believe it is their future along with many others after the day of judgement they are shown.
I Strongly disagree, (Soul Sleep), the doctrine taught and promoted by Ellen G. White and 7th Day Adventists
Soul sleep" is the belief that the souls of Christians who die will "rest" in an inert state until Christ's future return. Soul sleep is also called Christian mortalism or psychopannychism.
As scripture clearly teaches below, upon death there is immediate comfort for the righteous (Abraham's Bosom), and torment for the wicked in (Hell)
Revelation 20:13KJV
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Luke 16:19-25KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Soul sleep" is the belief that the souls of Christians who die will "rest" in an inert state until Christ's future return. Soul sleep is also called Christian mortalism or psychopannychism.
As scripture clearly teaches below, upon death there is immediate comfort for the righteous (Abraham's Bosom), and torment for the wicked in (Hell)
Revelation 20:13KJV
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Luke 16:19-25KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Both sides make their case.
Maybe consider the other verses making life in heaven incorrect.
It is still a debate.
But postribs have nobody in heaven after the rapture.
So your beliefs of soul sleep make Jesus words a bit bizarre that he is preparing a place in heaven. And there are mansions there,and that he is there,and that they will be with him there,and that he will drink wine with them there.
Then the rich man and lazarus....not at all soul sleep
Paul's words " tho be absent from the body is to be present with the lord."
So no soul sleep is not a good position.
Maybe consider the other verses making life in heaven incorrect.
It is still a debate.
But postribs have nobody in heaven after the rapture.
So your beliefs of soul sleep make Jesus words a bit bizarre that he is preparing a place in heaven. And there are mansions there,and that he is there,and that they will be with him there,and that he will drink wine with them there.
Then the rich man and lazarus....not at all soul sleep
Paul's words " tho be absent from the body is to be present with the lord."
So no soul sleep is not a good position.
OK, this is how forums should work. When a poster asks a question or asks for Scriptural evidence, the other poster should answer the question(s) and provide the evidence for their claims.
This is what I asked:
"Can you give me specific verses that say that? As far as I can see, that is merely speculation and conjecture.
All the 2 centuries of the church that have already died are in heaven, of course. But there will be NT believers on earth during the Tribulation. That's why John wrote ch1-3 and 22:16 FOR the church.
If the church isn't involved in the Trib, then why bother with Revelation anyway?"
So, you failed to provide any specific verses that say what you have claimed.
And, you failed to answer my question about why any NT believer should bother reading Revelation anyway.
This is what I asked:
"Can you give me specific verses that say that? As far as I can see, that is merely speculation and conjecture.
All the 2 centuries of the church that have already died are in heaven, of course. But there will be NT believers on earth during the Tribulation. That's why John wrote ch1-3 and 22:16 FOR the church.
If the church isn't involved in the Trib, then why bother with Revelation anyway?"
So, you failed to provide any specific verses that say what you have claimed.
And, you failed to answer my question about why any NT believer should bother reading Revelation anyway.
"""Eventually all will arise from this sleep. As Jesus said, the hour is coming "in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5:28-29) Just like Lazarus, we will hear his voice. This is the comforting and encouraging truth revealed in the Scriptures."""
Only the dead in Christ rise First. ( 1thes 4)
The resurrection you are referring to is the general resurrection ( 2 nd death) after the mil. After satan is released for the final rebellion.
Only the dead in Christ rise First. ( 1thes 4)
The resurrection you are referring to is the general resurrection ( 2 nd death) after the mil. After satan is released for the final rebellion.
FreeGrace2 said:
All the 2 centuries of the church that have already died are in heaven, of course.
Why did Paul write that separation from the body (physical death) IS face to face with the Lord?
2 Cor 5-
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
When believers die, they go to heaven.
Refers to their physical bodies, which will be resurrected and glorified.
No. Jesus used "sleep" as a metaphor for physical death.
John 11-
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
Actually, we don't know where he went. Nor do we know where ANY of the many people He raised from the dead went. But it should be obvious that ALL of them eventually died again.
This sounds like SDA doctrine. It's simply a misunderstanding of the metaphor for physical death. btw, there are many accounts of people who died in car accidents and surgeries, who were able to clearly recall conversations of those around them and they described hovering over where their bodies were, seeing everything.
So the idea of being unconscious cannot be proven.
Actually it is. Rev 6-
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
These people IN heaven aren't unconscious. They are martyrs from the Trib.
It is correct to say their physical bodies are asleep. But NOT their souls.
There is no such thing as soul sleep.
Paul is distinguishing between the dead believers and the living believers. The dead believers' physical bodies are described as sleeping.
All the 2 centuries of the church that have already died are in heaven, of course.
Why did Paul write that separation from the body (physical death) IS face to face with the Lord?
2 Cor 5-
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
When believers die, they go to heaven.
Refers to their physical bodies, which will be resurrected and glorified.
No. Jesus used "sleep" as a metaphor for physical death.
John 11-
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
Actually, we don't know where he went. Nor do we know where ANY of the many people He raised from the dead went. But it should be obvious that ALL of them eventually died again.
This sounds like SDA doctrine. It's simply a misunderstanding of the metaphor for physical death. btw, there are many accounts of people who died in car accidents and surgeries, who were able to clearly recall conversations of those around them and they described hovering over where their bodies were, seeing everything.
So the idea of being unconscious cannot be proven.
Actually it is. Rev 6-
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
These people IN heaven aren't unconscious. They are martyrs from the Trib.
It is correct to say their physical bodies are asleep. But NOT their souls.
There is no such thing as soul sleep.
Paul is distinguishing between the dead believers and the living believers. The dead believers' physical bodies are described as sleeping.
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Because...when Christ comes back at the Second Advent, He empties heaven of its residents, brings them to earth, resurrects and glorifies their physical bodies, and then reigns for 1,000 years on this present earth.
Then, when He kills all unbelievers at the battle of Gog and Magog, the present heaven and earth are melted in the "fervent heat" that Peter described in 2 Peter, and God provides a "new heaven and new earth", where ALL believers will reside forever.
So, no problem with an empty heaven when Jesus returns at the Second Advent. Why would believers stay in heaven? They'd miss the Millennial reign. And there is no evidence of bringing believers from heaven AFTER the Millennium.
Then, when He kills all unbelievers at the battle of Gog and Magog, the present heaven and earth are melted in the "fervent heat" that Peter described in 2 Peter, and God provides a "new heaven and new earth", where ALL believers will reside forever.
So, no problem with an empty heaven when Jesus returns at the Second Advent. Why would believers stay in heaven? They'd miss the Millennial reign. And there is no evidence of bringing believers from heaven AFTER the Millennium.
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Dang I gave you the evidence ... read the story of the flood and what God said about the rainbow.
You might also read how Abe interceded for Sodom and Gomorrah how that God cannot be so unjust as to destroy the righteous with the wicked. It is an established truth.
Revelation is full of instructive doctrine as well as prophecy.
Revelations is a misnomer it is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" that is His coming again.
You might also read how Abe interceded for Sodom and Gomorrah how that God cannot be so unjust as to destroy the righteous with the wicked. It is an established truth.
Revelation is full of instructive doctrine as well as prophecy.
Revelations is a misnomer it is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" that is His coming again.
It's clear that even with biblical references and scripture that some people will still see what they want and ignoring what does not make sense to them, instead of seeking or asking God for answers.
I see it clearly, and why if there is so much confusion within so many people is it so important to people they are right?
I think we all know that answer.
Have a blessed day!
I see it clearly, and why if there is so much confusion within so many people is it so important to people they are right?
I think we all know that answer.
Have a blessed day!
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