The diciples prayer .

[throughfaith]

Yes, I think we should learn it, recite it, and model our prayer after it. It was Jesus intent for us to do.

This is what people teach , I get it . Its become like a standard answer . But where does it say It was Jesus intent for us to do?

 

[Journeyman]

Today we have a whole host of denominations including the Catholics saying this prayer like a mantra. Its not a new testament verse for the church . The clue is in the very Jewish , OUR father .

God is the Father of all believers. Jesus's model for prayer is for all believers.

 

[Journeyman]

Do you know what were the Jews thinking about when they were praying for God's kingdom to come on Earth?

Jews believed different things among themselves. Apparently, Jesus's followers originally believed that Messiah would defeat Israels human enemies and begin his rule on earth. What Jews are you referring to?

 

[Guojing]

Jews believed different things among themselves. Apparently, Jesus's followers originally believed that Messiah would defeat Israels human enemies and begin his rule on earth. What Jews are you referring to?

From scripture, this is what Zacharias , John the Baptist's the father, stated in Luke 1 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so we know its from God,

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

So yes, all enemies, human or spiritual. Remember at that time, Rome was their conqueror and Pompey the Great actually walked into their Holy of Holies.

 

[throughfaith]

' model for prayer ' where did you get that phrase from ?

 

[Journeyman]

Do you still pray to God to forgive you, based on how much you are forgiving others?

I sure do. I pray it every day. I walk around praying it. It's always in my mind, but I see that petition as request to make me more like Jesus, although he himself didnt need to be forgiven.

I hope you don't walk through life hoping God's judgement will fall on sinners.

 

[Journeyman]

From scripture, this is what Zacharias , John the Baptist's the father, stated in Luke 1 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so we know its from God,

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

So yes, all enemies, human or spiritual. Remember at that time, Rome was their conqueror and Pompey the Great actually walked into their Holy of Holies.

So when you were an enemy of Christ, did you want God to deliver his people from you?

 

[Guojing]

I sure do. I pray it every day. I walk around praying it. It's always in my mind, but I see that petition as request to make me more like Jesus, although he himself didnt need to be forgiven.

I hope you don't walk through life hoping God's judgement will fall on sinners.

No, my question to you was,

"do you pray to God to forgive your sins, based on how much you forgive the sins others have committed against you?"

 

[Guojing]

So when you were an enemy of Christ, did you want God to deliver his people from you?

Gentiles were not in Zacharias's mind when he uttered that prophecy (Ephesians 2:11-12)

 

[Journeyman]

' model for prayer ' where did you get that phrase from ?

From the elements contained im the prayer. First acknowledging our Father. Then the request of his Kingdom, which Jesus said in another place is already here.

 

[throughfaith]

From the elements contained im the prayer. First acknowledging our Father. Then the request of his Kingdom, which Jesus said in another place is already here.

Yes this is a problem. Its where we take a passage and pick at it and take pieces from it apply it . Without justification. Jesus tells a group they must present themselves to the priests for cleansing ( literally ) why not pick that verse for today? Luke 17
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
This is something that was required and Jesus commands them to do so . Why do you not claim this verse ?

 

[Journeyman]

No, my question to you was,

"do you pray to God to forgive your sins, based on how much you forgive the sins others have committed against you?"

I understand your question. Do you understand that although King David knew he was forgiven, he still said his sin was ever before him? Or do you look at other sinners as though you are morally superior to them?

 

[throughfaith]

I understand your question. Do you understand that although King David knew he was forgiven, he still said his sin was ever before him? Or do you look at other sinners as though you are morally superior to them?

My point on the diciples ( Jewish prayer) Is that prior to the cross this was our position .
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Do you think Jesus is speaking to any gentiles in light of theses verses ?

 

[Guojing]

I understand your question. Do you understand that although King David knew he was forgiven, he still said his sin was ever before him? Or do you look at other sinners as though you are morally superior to them?

If you truly understand my question, why don't you answer it first, before asking me a question that is unrelated?

 

[Journeyman]

Gentiles were not in Zacharias's mind when he uttered that prophecy (Ephesians 2:11-12)

Guojing,
Gentiles were in the minds of Jews waiting for the kingdom to appear

 

[Guojing]

Guojing,
Gentiles were in the minds of Jews waiting for the kingdom to appear

Where is your scripture?

 

[phil36]

Gentiles were not in Zacharias's mind when he uttered that prophecy (Ephesians 2:11-12)

Hi Guojing,

Thanks for reminding us about Ephesians 2:11-22.

Some great truths here.

Here we see Paul telling us that gentiles were strangers (without God), alienated from the covenants of promise. But this whole section destroys what you have been writing about Guojing. For Paul tells us what Christ has done.

But now in Christ Jesus --

1) Gentiles have been brought near have access to the Father v13;18

2) Through Christ the wall of hostility between Jew and gentile has been brought down and we have peace v14.

3) Paul states again that now through Christ we are one in the New Covenant which fulfilled all the Old Covenants of promise v15 & 16 (2 Cor 1:20). This is the new ekklesia of people.. the church jew and gentile (cf. Col 3:15)----


For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility


So here is a recap---


V12--
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


v13a--

But now in Christ Jesus



v19ff--

you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,


There is no other way to be saved except through faith Christ Jesus for Jew and gentile. And in Christ we become one. There is no other separate plan of salvation for gentile or jew.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes this is a problem. Its where we take a passage and pick at it and take pieces from it apply it . Without justification.

I'm justified in acknowledging God's greatness, in petitioning God for my needs or godly desires and in asking him to make me into the image of Christ. Those are the elements of that prayer and there is no prayer that anyone has ever prayed that don't fit that mold.

Jesus tells a group they must present themselves to the priests for cleansing ( literally ) why not pick that verse for today? Luke 17
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
This is something that was required and Jesus commands them to do so . Why do you not claim this verse ?

I have no problem having faith in what Jesus says to do. What's the matter with you?

 

[Journeyman]

My point on the diciples ( Jewish prayer) Is that prior to the cross this was our position .
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Do you think Jesus is speaking to any gentiles in light of theses verses ?

He is through Paul for Gods sake. Whats the matter with you? Are you saying that because Jesus never travelled outside of Israel during his ministry on earth that nothing he said was for gentiles?

 

[throughfaith]

I'm justified in acknowledging God's greatness, in petitioning God for my needs or godly desires and in asking him to make me into the image of Christ. Those are the elements of that prayer and there is no prayer that anyone has ever prayed that don't fit that mold.

I have no problem having faith in what Jesus says to do. What's the matter with you?

What I'm getting at is understanding the bible. We are instructed to study to show thyself approved ect . What's the point in scripture if we just make things up ?