Not By Works

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Jun 22, 2020
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Yep, its basically a circular argument.

It is faith without works that save, but if you claim to have faith but there are no works following, your faith is dead and could not save.

Its enough to make many heads spin ;)
Oh thank you... I thought I was going insane or something...
Your the first person that has expressed this same kind of belief...
It's more than circular thinking, it's spherical thinking... LoL... :)
Going around and round, no wonder our heads are spinning...;)
 
Aug 3, 2019
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trust and faith in Christ save. while good behavior should follow, good behavior has 0 to do with salvation.


believe- saved.

non belief- not saved.

everything beyond that is a separate conversation.
The devils "believe" and tremble, so that very fact alone demands further examination of what "belief" is...and the answer is found in Hebrews 11:

"By faith, (belief) Abraham DID SOMETHING".
"By faith (belief), Noah DID SOMETHING."
"By faith (belief), Rachab DID SOMETHING."

No matter what you confused OSAS guys do, you can't change the fact that belief is demonstrated by obedience and the absence of faith by disobedience...and a saved person who has lost faith is not going to heaven.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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What makes you think that the man in Corinthians was actually a Christian?
Nothing that I can see in the passage indicates he was a genuine beliver that I can see.

We know that this sin was abhorrent to the Pagans and even the culture and the Jewish community.

1 Corinthians 5:1
Sin in Relationships (5:1–6:20)
Paul Confronts Sexual Immorality and Spiritual Pride
1 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.

Now it seems that the church accepted this. So now they have allowed a little leaven into the church.

We find that Paul is not actually addressing the sinful nature of people outside of the church. He says

1 Corinthians 5:9-10

Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

So it has nothing to do with sexually immoral people outside of the church because if it was then they would not be in the world and preach the gospel.

The later verses in chapter 5 is Paul clarifying what he meant.

1 Corinthians 5:9

Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.

Then he clarifies

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Verse 11 does not say a brother, it's a named brother.
Basically someone claims to be a brother (genuine beliver) yet is living in unrepentant sin. Therefore discipline him, excommunicate him from you in the hope that he will repent of this sin.

The premise I'm trying to make here is that we cannot assume this man was saved to begin with.

The purpose of this whole chapter is

To convict people in the church not to be fooled by their spiritual state.

1 Corinthians 10:12
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

To protect the spiritual health of believers

Galatians 2:4
4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),

To not give unberlievers an excuse to slam the church

1 Peter 2:12
12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

As I say nothing in this chapter suggests the man was saved to begin with.
Man in Corinthians? Which one would that be?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Oh thank you... I thought I was going insane or something...
Your the first person that has expressed this same kind of belief...
It's more than circular thinking, it's spherical thinking... LoL... :)
Going around and round, no wonder our heads are spinning...;)
1614831032549.png
They should be confused, and here is why. Genuine FAITH is a gift form GOD, and as such it is of the HEART, and not Intellect.


Romans 10:9-10 (HCSB)
9 If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

That is the ONLY SALVATION that I know !
 
Jan 12, 2019
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View attachment 225896
They should be confused, and here is why. Genuine FAITH is a gift form GOD, and as such it is of the HEART, and not Intellect.


Romans 10:9-10 (HCSB)
9 If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

That is the ONLY SALVATION that I know !
So how would you respond to someone who "calls your Paul", and "raise you with James 2"?

Do you fold or reraise?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Would you resort to making circular arguments, in order to make James agree with Paul?
Is the following argument circular?

a. Salvation is by Grace through faith, not of works.
b Those who are saved are changed on the inside by the Gracious work of God
c. Inward change results in outward transformation

God works in us both to will (desire,want to) and to do of His good pleasure. So if God is the one creating the desire AND the ability, He deserves all the credit, glory, and praise.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Is the following argument circular?

a. Salvation is by Grace through faith, not of works.
b Those who are saved are changed on the inside by the Gracious work of God
c. Inward change results in outward transformation

God works in us both to will (desire,want to) and to do of His good pleasure. So if God is the one creating the desire AND the ability, He deserves all the credit, glory, and praise.
Yes, good works should follow salvation.

But even if it doesn't, one is still saved.

That is how you make the argument non-circular.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, good works should follow salvation.

But even if it doesn't, one is still saved.

That is how you make the argument non-circular.
No you missed the point all together

good works WILL (not should) Follow

if one claims to have faith but does not do anything the one they claim to have faith in says, ever, that person is decieved, his faith is dead, it WHY he has no works
 
Jan 12, 2019
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No you missed the point all together

good works WILL (not should) Follow

if one claims to have faith but does not do anything the one they claim to have faith in says, ever, that person is decieved, his faith is dead, it WHY he has no works
Then you are making a circular argument, like I stated earlier.

It is faith without works that save, but if you claim to have faith but there are no works following, your faith is dead and could not save.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Yes, good works should follow salvation.

But even if it doesn't, one is still saved.

That is how you make the argument non-circular.
But you added to what I said, therefore my argument itself is not circular, only what you read into it is.

I never said what you posted here or anywhere else at any time.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Then you are making a circular argument, like I stated earlier.
You are confusing the cause and it’s effects. You are saying if a cause produces an effect, then it follows that the effect must have produced the cause. That is a fallacious argument.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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But you added to what I said, therefore my argument itself is not circular, only what you read into it is.

I never said what you posted here or anywhere else at any time.
I am not adding to what you said.

You asked me a question about whether your argument is circular or not.

So I replied with, if you are making the same point as I did about the should, then it is not.

However, if you actually meant something else, then you have to make your argument clearer.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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You are confusing the cause and it’s effects. You are saying if a cause produces an effect, then it follows that the effect must have produced the cause. That is a fallacious argument.
Circular arguments, by definition, is confusing cause and effect.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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I am not adding to what you said.

You asked me a question about whether your argument is circular or not.

So I replied with, if you are making the same point as I did about the should, then it is not.

However, if you actually meant something else, then you have to make your argument clearer.
The argument was clear, sir. You chose to add/read into it what wasn’t stated.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Circular arguments, by definition, is confusing cause and effect.
I’m not the one confusing cause and effect. You think that mine and Eternal’s argument, which are basically the same, are circular, because you do not realize that grace is the cause of salvation, faith is the instrument, and a changed life is the effect.

Now a cause (salvation) produced an effect (changed life), but the effect (changed life) is not what produced the cause (salvation).

Now We are eternally saved by grace through faith, not of works, but that same Grace effectually works in us and through us. Paul said “ I worked harder than they all, yet not I but the Grace of God working in me”.

Grace is the cause, changed life is the effect.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Now We are eternally saved by grace through faith, not of works, but that same Grace effectually works in us and through us. Paul said “ I worked harder than they all, yet not I but the Grace of God working in me”.

Grace is the cause, changed life is the effect.
So basically you are also saying that if I don't see a changed life in someone, in terms of good works, I can conclude he is not really saved?