Was the Garden of Eden, literally Heaven on Earth? Was the Earth already fallen except for the Garden?
- Thread starter pittsburghjoe
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L
Live4Him
Guest
Hi, seed time harvest.
I really don't want to get pulled back into this conversation because I've already determined that it's going nowhere, but I didn't want to be rude by avoiding your direct question to me, so here I am.
Satan's normal place of residency is in the heavenly realm.
That said, according to scripture, there are apparently 3 heavens.
For example, we read:
II Corinthians chapter 12
[1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
[4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Apparently, "the third heaven" is where "paradise" is, and it's where Paul "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter", and I believe that this is where God resides.
At times, at least, and it seems like it's daily, Satan still has access to this "third heaven".
Again, we read:
Revelation chapter 12
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
It is my understanding that this battle between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels is yet future, and that when it eventually does take place it will be a fulfillment of that which was prophesied by the prophet Daniel:
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. " (Daniel 12:1)
I believe that when Michael stands up and when Michael and his angels fight against Satan and his angels are the same event. Notice that it will be at this yet future time when "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time". I fully believe that this timeframe is what we would call "the great tribulation", and that is what Jesus called it in his Olivet Discourse:
Matthew chapter 24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Anyhow, seeing how this battle between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels is yet future, this tells us that "the accuser of our brethren", Satan, has not yet been "cast down" from "the third heaven" (II Cor. 12:2) from which he accuses the saints "before our God day and night" (Rev. 12:10).
Well, that's Satan's relation to "the third heaven", but logic tells us that if there is a "third heaven", then there also must be a first and second heaven.
To my understanding, the first heaven would simply be our atmosphere where the fowls fly, and I believe that this is supported here:
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. " (Gen. 1:20)
Does Satan ever operate in the realm of this first heaven?
Well, we know, for certain, that he has access to this earth because he tempted Jesus in the wilderness.
We also know that he has access to this earth from the following two portions of scripture:
Job chapter 1
[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
[7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job chapter 2
[1] Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
[2] And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
In both of these instances, Satan presents himself "before the LORD" in what I believe is "the third heaven", and he tells the LORD that he came "from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it", so, again, it appears that Satan has access to both "the third heaven" and this earth.
Well, if there's a first heaven and a "third heaven", then there must be a second heaven lodged in between them, and there's evidence that suggests that Satan interacts in this realm as well.
For one thing, we're told that our battle as Christians is "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12), and other Bible translations translate "high places" as either "in the heavenly realms" or "in the heavenly places".
You can verify that for yourself here:
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/6-12.htm
Also, seeing how our battle is not just against Satan, but "his angels" (Rev. 12:7, 9) as well, we should note that angelic battles are described for us in what seems to be the realm of the second heaven in scripture.
For example, we read:
Daniel chapter 10
[12] Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
[13] But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Here, an angel tells Daniel that he was hindered from coming to him because "the prince of the kingdom of Persia", an angelic being, "withstood me one and twenty days". In fact, "Michael, one of the chief princes" or an archangel, had to come and help him to break through this angelic heavenly battle.
I'm sorry that I had to give you such a long answer to your question, but I wanted to show you that Satan and his angels apparently presently have access to all three heavens.
In other words, contrary to what some people believe and preach, Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven, nor has he yet been confined to this earth.
I hope that this answers your question.
Here we go again...
couple
[ˈkəpəl]
VERB
coupled (past tense) · coupled (past participle)
- (be coupled to/with)
combine.
"a sense of hope is coupled with a palpable sense of loss"
synonyms:
combine · integrate · mix · incorporate · accompany · link · team · associate · connect · ally · add to · join to · conjoin
antonyms:
divorce- connect (a railroad vehicle or a piece of equipment) to another.
"a cable is coupled up to one of the wheels"
synonyms:
harness · hitch · hitch up · tether · fasten · attach · join · join up · team
antonyms:
unhitch
- connect (two electrical components) using electromagnetic induction, electrostatic charge, or an optical link.
"networks of coupled oscillators"
synonyms:
connect · attach · join · fasten · fix · link · secure · tie · bind ·
antonyms:
separate
- (couple up)
join to form a pair.
- connect (a railroad vehicle or a piece of equipment) to another.
- mate or have sexual intercourse.
synonyms:
mate · breed · have sex · have sexual intercourse · make love
The body HE coupled for Father Adam was in HIS image and after HIS likeness. That is why it was a "coupling" because the raw materials that GOD used to couple HIS body are 12 Most precious Stones that GOD placed in the earth before the fall, before that earth became terrestrial, which baptized the earth into those 12 Most Precious Stones that HE used to couple the body for Father Adam in HIS image and after HIS likeness. That is why in the fall, the earth was also affected. And that is also why there are 12 tribes of Israel. And this was revealed in Rev where we learned that each tribe has their Most Precious Stone.
the churches out there, and the people out there, have not known the true Genesis story. You believed a story that claimed that the serpent knew what the fruit would do, as if the serpent helped Mankind. you believed that Adam, and Eve walked around the Garden Naked, but were naive.
Father Adam is the Principal Ancestor of the Mankind race, that willingly sacrificed his celestial life of bliss, so that he could kick start procreation for his children to also have physical body as he has.
- “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Does that semicolon mean it is now talking about a different Adam?
Can a living being ..live without a soul?
- The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.
The natural man came first that wasn't spiritual.
The second man was of heaven because God formed him with a soul?
- 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Could this be saying the animal humans got a soul from the heavenly man?
- 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Did the fall of Adam and Eve cause all other existing animal Humans to be granted souls? Or was it only through their offspring?
- Roman's 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
I've got bad new for you. The papacy matches exactly to the first beast in Revelation. The fatal wound was the pope that died in captivity. The second beast didn't have crowns on the horns ..the USA doesn't have kings. The USA is a lamb because it is a Christian Nation. Satan had his war already. We are at the end of the last church age ..this reality is almost over.
Yes.
Define "soul".
No. The second man, Jesus, was from heaven, simple as that.
No, it does not say that.
maybe a better question:
why did Michael & his angels fight, when Christ with a single word could expel Satan?
((see Matthew 4:10-11 for example))
you are the one misreading scripture when you say that.
Cursed is the ground for your sake
- the LORD God Almighty, Genesis 3:17
**ahem**
The Pre-Adamite earth myth is simply that. A myth, without any scriptural support. Eden (Paradise) was definitely not Heaven on earth, but very close to that. Now Paradise is in Heaven. God's Heaven.
i can help with that; it's here:
I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
(John 10:9-10)
(John 10:9-10)
That is not past tense but future tense. And God wants to show evil angels that they will be routed by the holy angels without divine intervention. The evil angels are no longer in the third heaven, but exist in the other two heavens, primarily in the first heaven (the atmospheric heaven). So it is from there that they will be cast down to earth. The increase in demonic activity on earth today is a harbinger of what is to come in the relatively near future.
there is support; the OP is just a misguided gnostic who doesn't know the support, whose aim is to teach heresy instead of the truth.
it's in asking why the earth was "void" in Genesis 1, and putting that together with Satan being the anointed cherub walking among fiery stones, and Isaiah by the Spirit saying, he looked, and there was no man.
while we may disagree with what's put together as implications of these things ((and others)), it's not really true to say there's 'no support' in scripture for that idea -- which, i emphasize, is not the idea of the OP. he has an anti-material view, saying that all physical reality is sin. he disguises it here, but it's been his constant conversation since he joined.
i won't use this place to debate past/future tense, but specifically, why would God have Michael & his angels throw Satan out, when with a single word or a glance of His holy eye He can destroy Satan? why is this His will? why does He abide war in heaven when He could instantaneously end it Himself?
that's really what the question is about. you said, He wants to show the angels they will be routed by other angels without His own intervention -- but why? He Himself came as a man, rather than have men accomplish salvation -- so why doesn't He Himself cast out Satan? what does this show? is He teaching angels something different than He teaches man? but angels see what He does among man, and wonder
Only God knows the real reasons, but He is teaching men and angels that Satan is NOT equal to God in any way, shape, or form. Therefore He will use the holy angels to cast out all the evil angels including Satan, just before the Antichrist takes control.
Lucifer's ambition from the very beginning was to be more than equal to God. So he has tried to usurp the worship that is due to God alone. But in the end God will show him that he is nothing but simply a very evil creature, who will remain in the Lake of Fire for eternity.
Keep reading the thread, I found a way for Adam and Eve to be physical before the fall.
L
Live4Him
Guest
That's a strange response for more than one reason.
Not that I plan on having this discussion here now, but I've been preaching for more than 30 years that the Vatican/the Papacy is the first beast in Revelation.
I've also been preaching for approximately that same timeframe that the USA is the second beast or "another beast" of Revelation.
That said, Satan hasn't yet had the war that we read about in Revelation chapter 12.
How could you possibly know some of these things, and yet be as far removed from reality (and you're WAY OUT THERE) on other things that are being discussed in this thread?
Not really looking for an answer...just thinking out loud.
Btw, the fatal/deadly wound was not a pope dying in captivity.
Instead, it was the Papacy losing its power in 1870, and its deadly wound was healed in 1929 at the signing of the Lateran Treaty.
In fact, the newspaper headlines of that day recorded this event as "Healing the Deadly Wound".
i am after all only on page 2
thanks -- please don't take anything i say in disagreement, personally ♥