Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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There's no definite article ('the') in 1Cor15:23 before the word "firstfruit":
1 Corinthians 15:23 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)
Also, James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" / "a CERTAIN firstfruit"...
... and Lev23 mentions TWO distinct "firstfruit" (regarding TWO distinct harvests).
In Rev14:4, re: the 144,000, the wording parallels the SECOND of those TWO "firstfruit" (i.e. the "WHEAT harvest," Lev23:17) and there it speaks of "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"...
... this is consistent with all other of the timing / SEQUENCE issues I've pointed out in past posts.
1 Corinthians 15:23 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)
Also, James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" / "a CERTAIN firstfruit"...
... and Lev23 mentions TWO distinct "firstfruit" (regarding TWO distinct harvests).
In Rev14:4, re: the 144,000, the wording parallels the SECOND of those TWO "firstfruit" (i.e. the "WHEAT harvest," Lev23:17) and there it speaks of "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"...
... this is consistent with all other of the timing / SEQUENCE issues I've pointed out in past posts.
Is there a point to be made here about lack of the definite article?
A point? And how does this have any relevance to the resurrection/glorification of believers?
OK, according to biblestudytools.com these are the subheading of the chapter:
Appointed festivals
Sabbath
Passover and festival of unleavened bread
Offering the firstfruits
Festival of weeks
Festival of trumpets
Day of Atonement
Festival of Tabernacles
So these are all the verses under "firstfruits"
Offering the Firstfruits
9 The LORD said to Moses,
10 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest.
11 He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.
12 On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect,
13 together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil—a food offering presented to the LORD, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine.
14You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live.
I see nothing here that is relevant to 1 Cor 15:23. So, what is your point by bringing Lev 23 up?
And?? The point, please.
Well, you're going to have to actually connect the dots.
Since none of the verses cited in your post are relevant to 1 Cor 15:23 and Christ being the "firstfruits" in regard to glorification, yo've not made any coherent point.
A point? And how does this have any relevance to the resurrection/glorification of believers?
OK, according to biblestudytools.com these are the subheading of the chapter:
Appointed festivals
Sabbath
Passover and festival of unleavened bread
Offering the firstfruits
Festival of weeks
Festival of trumpets
Day of Atonement
Festival of Tabernacles
So these are all the verses under "firstfruits"
Offering the Firstfruits
9 The LORD said to Moses,
10 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest.
11 He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.
12 On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect,
13 together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil—a food offering presented to the LORD, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine.
14You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live.
I see nothing here that is relevant to 1 Cor 15:23. So, what is your point by bringing Lev 23 up?
And?? The point, please.
Well, you're going to have to actually connect the dots.
Since none of the verses cited in your post are relevant to 1 Cor 15:23 and Christ being the "firstfruits" in regard to glorification, yo've not made any coherent point.
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Lev 23:11 -
Berean Study Bible
And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD so that it may be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.
Young's Literal Translation
then he hath waved the sheaf before Jehovah for your acceptance; onthe morrow of the sabbath doth the priest wave it.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will wave the sheaf before the LORD so that you may be accepted; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.
New American Standard Bible
He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
King James Bible
And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
I'm saying that ^ is what Jesus did, after He had told MM about His "[active] I ASCEND" (John 20:17) and had earlier talked about His "[active] I GO TO THE FATHER" (John 13:33,36; 14:2,3,4; 14:28; 16:5-7,16,19,20,21-22,28 [17:11]), which I am saying He did on the very day of His "resurrection"-1Cor15:20 (that is, ON FIRSTFRUIT, per Lev23:10-12 ^ )... [the FIRST ascension before the "40-day" LATER VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1]
...not speaking of His LATER VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1 (which is the manner in which He will RETURN to the earth King of kings, openly manifest, Rev19 [/ 2Th2:8b "the APPEARANCE/MANIFESTATION of His coming/presence," in contrast to v.1, which is "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" UP THERE [IN THE AIR]--and no one else, at that point])
Berean Study Bible
And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD so that it may be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.
Young's Literal Translation
then he hath waved the sheaf before Jehovah for your acceptance; onthe morrow of the sabbath doth the priest wave it.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will wave the sheaf before the LORD so that you may be accepted; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.
New American Standard Bible
He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
King James Bible
And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
I'm saying that ^ is what Jesus did, after He had told MM about His "[active] I ASCEND" (John 20:17) and had earlier talked about His "[active] I GO TO THE FATHER" (John 13:33,36; 14:2,3,4; 14:28; 16:5-7,16,19,20,21-22,28 [17:11]), which I am saying He did on the very day of His "resurrection"-1Cor15:20 (that is, ON FIRSTFRUIT, per Lev23:10-12 ^ )... [the FIRST ascension before the "40-day" LATER VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1]
...not speaking of His LATER VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1 (which is the manner in which He will RETURN to the earth King of kings, openly manifest, Rev19 [/ 2Th2:8b "the APPEARANCE/MANIFESTATION of His coming/presence," in contrast to v.1, which is "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" UP THERE [IN THE AIR]--and no one else, at that point])
You can look in every postrib rapture workbook and never unpack rev 14.
Why????
Because to you it is
1) anti pretrib rapture FIRST
2) REFRAMING those rapture verses
So when it comes to depth ( bride/ groom components) those teachers are bankrupt.
Once the center of end times is on the table ( bride/groom and Heavens purposes) the ENTIRE SUBJECT TURNS ON A DIME.
The thing is, you have to kinda start over.
BTW
I never understood how the 144 k could be any firstfruits of any kind (they are not first of anything).
But thank you Jesus for the Holy Ghost.
The 144k are declared at the first miracle of Jesus.
.....at....a WEDDING.
They are the wine declared " the best is saved for last"
( They are firstfruit Jews)
You heard it here first ( no pun untended)
You will find nobody unpacking rev 14.
I am all alone in that chapter.
It is so very hidden.
And yet the biggest game changer of the entire deal.
THANK YOU JESUS
Why????
Because to you it is
1) anti pretrib rapture FIRST
2) REFRAMING those rapture verses
So when it comes to depth ( bride/ groom components) those teachers are bankrupt.
Once the center of end times is on the table ( bride/groom and Heavens purposes) the ENTIRE SUBJECT TURNS ON A DIME.
The thing is, you have to kinda start over.
BTW
I never understood how the 144 k could be any firstfruits of any kind (they are not first of anything).
But thank you Jesus for the Holy Ghost.
The 144k are declared at the first miracle of Jesus.
.....at....a WEDDING.
They are the wine declared " the best is saved for last"
( They are firstfruit Jews)
You heard it here first ( no pun untended)
You will find nobody unpacking rev 14.
I am all alone in that chapter.
It is so very hidden.
And yet the biggest game changer of the entire deal.
THANK YOU JESUS
I meant to put the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" (in Lev23) also, in that last post, continuing on...
Lev23:17 -
Berean Study Bible
Bring two loaves of bread from your dwellings as a wave offering, each made from two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour, baked with leaven, as the firstfruits to the LORD.
Young's Literal Translation
out of your dwellings ye bring in bread of a wave-offering, two [loaves], of two tenth deals of flour they are, [with] yeast they are baken, first- [ fruits] to Jehovah.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Bring two loaves of bread from your settlements as a presentation offering, each of them made from four quarts of fine flour, baked with yeast, as firstfruits to the LORD.
New American Standard Bible
You shall bring in from your dwelling places two [loaves] of bread for a wave offering, made of two-tenths [of an] [ephah]; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to the LORD.
King James Bible
Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; [they are] the firstfruits unto the LORD.
-- https://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/23-17.htm
[Rev14:4 re: 144,000]
Lev23:17 -
Berean Study Bible
Bring two loaves of bread from your dwellings as a wave offering, each made from two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour, baked with leaven, as the firstfruits to the LORD.
Young's Literal Translation
out of your dwellings ye bring in bread of a wave-offering, two [loaves], of two tenth deals of flour they are, [with] yeast they are baken, first- [ fruits] to Jehovah.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Bring two loaves of bread from your settlements as a presentation offering, each of them made from four quarts of fine flour, baked with yeast, as firstfruits to the LORD.
New American Standard Bible
You shall bring in from your dwelling places two [loaves] of bread for a wave offering, made of two-tenths [of an] [ephah]; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to the LORD.
King James Bible
Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; [they are] the firstfruits unto the LORD.
-- https://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/23-17.htm
[Rev14:4 re: 144,000]
How am I looking at it backwards?
I'm not saying the same thing you are saying about the 144,000 being "raptured" / "located in Heaven" (I believe they remain on the earth... same as the REST of that particular "harvest").
I *AM* saying there is more than ONE "harvest"... and that the 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT harvest," in which there are many more (not just the 144,000 of Israel) that participate in the "WHEAT harvest" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (per Matt13:24,39,40,49-50 parallel Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 and Matt25:31-34, etc... [both chpts here])
[to be clear, I do not believe "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") are the "WHEAT harvest". No.; As I said, the "WHEAT" is harvested by means of a "tribulum"; whereas the EARLIER harvest, by means of "tossing INTO THE AIR"]
I'm not saying the same thing you are saying about the 144,000 being "raptured" / "located in Heaven" (I believe they remain on the earth... same as the REST of that particular "harvest").
I *AM* saying there is more than ONE "harvest"... and that the 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT harvest," in which there are many more (not just the 144,000 of Israel) that participate in the "WHEAT harvest" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (per Matt13:24,39,40,49-50 parallel Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 and Matt25:31-34, etc... [both chpts here])
[to be clear, I do not believe "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") are the "WHEAT harvest". No.; As I said, the "WHEAT" is harvested by means of a "tribulum"; whereas the EARLIER harvest, by means of "tossing INTO THE AIR"]
Where do you get such an idea?
Type of what, specifically?
OK, I see it now. By creating (constructing) the idea that a word "points to something" and are a "type" of something, the claimer is able to make up just about anything they want.
No dice. The "firstfruits" of Lev 23 are simply OFFERINGS made to the Lord, as prescribed by the Lord.
To use Lev 23 to try to explain anything else is ludicrous.
Type of what, specifically?
OK, I see it now. By creating (constructing) the idea that a word "points to something" and are a "type" of something, the claimer is able to make up just about anything they want.
No dice. The "firstfruits" of Lev 23 are simply OFFERINGS made to the Lord, as prescribed by the Lord.
To use Lev 23 to try to explain anything else is ludicrous.
FreeGrace2 said:
Of course, those familiar with Scripture know that 1 Cor 15:23 says that Jesus is the "firstfruits". That's one, not 144K.
Looking forward to your take on the facts that I've shared with you.
So, what does this prove? As you said in your earlier post, "there are many many firstfruits".
So, how does Ref 14:4 relate to 1 Cor 15:23?
And, where are your comments about the facts I gave you?
Of course, those familiar with Scripture know that 1 Cor 15:23 says that Jesus is the "firstfruits". That's one, not 144K.
Looking forward to your take on the facts that I've shared with you.
So, what does this prove? As you said in your earlier post, "there are many many firstfruits".
So, how does Ref 14:4 relate to 1 Cor 15:23?
And, where are your comments about the facts I gave you?
I said, He did this (what I'd pointed out re: His FIRST ascension, 'I ASCEND') on the same day of His "RESURRECTION" (1Cor15:20)... you know, when He "rose again"... "from the dead"...
...but after He "rose again" and after He spoke with MM and said to her what He said (in John 20:17).
That day on the calendar is [also known as] "FIRSTFRUIT" (which is, 'on the morrow, following the sabbath').
Does that answer your question?
I believe Scripture indicates He not only "rose from the dead" that day ['resurrection'], but also did His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" that very same day (which is some "40 days" earlier than the LATER VISIBLE ascension of Acts 1)
[btw, I believe He was BORN on Tabernacles]
...but after He "rose again" and after He spoke with MM and said to her what He said (in John 20:17).
That day on the calendar is [also known as] "FIRSTFRUIT" (which is, 'on the morrow, following the sabbath').
Does that answer your question?
I believe Scripture indicates He not only "rose from the dead" that day ['resurrection'], but also did His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" that very same day (which is some "40 days" earlier than the LATER VISIBLE ascension of Acts 1)
[btw, I believe He was BORN on Tabernacles]
Remember 9/11? The churches were FULL for three solid weeks.
How religious do you think the world will become when Satan is allowed to unleash his global environmental, economic, and societal catastrophism on the planet, and then his false prophets preach from every pulpit that God's anger is upon us because of our sin and that we have to legislate morality in order to save ourselves from total destruction?
All throughout Earth's history, the devil has always sought to make laws contrary to God's law and then get God's people in trouble for not obeying his laws...and the Psalmist plainly states that in the last days, Satan is going to "frame mischief by a law".
How religious do you think the world will become when Satan is allowed to unleash his global environmental, economic, and societal catastrophism on the planet, and then his false prophets preach from every pulpit that God's anger is upon us because of our sin and that we have to legislate morality in order to save ourselves from total destruction?
All throughout Earth's history, the devil has always sought to make laws contrary to God's law and then get God's people in trouble for not obeying his laws...and the Psalmist plainly states that in the last days, Satan is going to "frame mischief by a law".
To be clear, I did NOT "connect" those two ^ things you're saying I "connected". NO.
Instead, I said there are TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23:
--[1] in Lev23:10-12 (on FIRSTFRUIT, 'on the morrow, following the sabbath'--the very day of Jesus' 'RESURRECTION' ['resurrection ['to stand again]' connecting with 1Cor15:20] and ON which day He ALSO did His '[active] I ASCEND'); in this Lev23:10-12 passage, there are NO "baked loaves" being referred to here as being "waved" (as you suggested I said... but I did not state that);
--[2] in Lev23:17 (re: 'WHEAT harvest'; [connecting with Rev14:4 / re: 144,000]); this Lev23:17 passage says "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"
And, again, I'm just saying, "WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT harvest" (harvested by means of a 'tribulum'--harvesting implement)--the "144,000" are "firstfruit" of THAT harvest.
The "WHEAT harvest" (pertaining to the 'TWO loaves' [<--here's the 'baked loaves' you mentioned] and 'baken WITH LEAVEN') comes after the EARLIER "harvest"... the one which is harvested by means of "tossing INTO THE AIR"... and here it is "the sheaf of the firstfruit" which is "waved" by the priest (not 'baked loaves' waved here);
I'm just trying to point out the "connections" that you've misunderstood regarding (and thus responded far afield from) my previous post.
Hope that helps... or at least helps the readers see what the intention of my post had been meant to lay down (rather than what you picked up, by it, instead = ) )...
Instead, I said there are TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23:
--[1] in Lev23:10-12 (on FIRSTFRUIT, 'on the morrow, following the sabbath'--the very day of Jesus' 'RESURRECTION' ['resurrection ['to stand again]' connecting with 1Cor15:20] and ON which day He ALSO did His '[active] I ASCEND'); in this Lev23:10-12 passage, there are NO "baked loaves" being referred to here as being "waved" (as you suggested I said... but I did not state that);
--[2] in Lev23:17 (re: 'WHEAT harvest'; [connecting with Rev14:4 / re: 144,000]); this Lev23:17 passage says "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"
And, again, I'm just saying, "WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT harvest" (harvested by means of a 'tribulum'--harvesting implement)--the "144,000" are "firstfruit" of THAT harvest.
The "WHEAT harvest" (pertaining to the 'TWO loaves' [<--here's the 'baked loaves' you mentioned] and 'baken WITH LEAVEN') comes after the EARLIER "harvest"... the one which is harvested by means of "tossing INTO THE AIR"... and here it is "the sheaf of the firstfruit" which is "waved" by the priest (not 'baked loaves' waved here);
I'm just trying to point out the "connections" that you've misunderstood regarding (and thus responded far afield from) my previous post.
Hope that helps... or at least helps the readers see what the intention of my post had been meant to lay down (rather than what you picked up, by it, instead = ) )...
FreeGrace2 said:
How in the world can anyone attach Lev 23:11 to either Jesus' "active" ascension or His being the "firstfruits".
Lev 23 is a chapter that covers festivals for the Jews .
Sorry, no. Where do you get the idea when He went to His Father after speaking to MM on THAT day, that is known as "first fruit"?
You keep repeating the "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" but I don't recall any verse where that was spoken. Could you provide it?
Is this signifiant? If so, please explain.
How in the world can anyone attach Lev 23:11 to either Jesus' "active" ascension or His being the "firstfruits".
Lev 23 is a chapter that covers festivals for the Jews .
Sorry, no. Where do you get the idea when He went to His Father after speaking to MM on THAT day, that is known as "first fruit"?
You keep repeating the "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" but I don't recall any verse where that was spoken. Could you provide it?
Is this signifiant? If so, please explain.
FreeGrace2 said:
Why do people try to connect literal baked bread, which are OFFERINGS to the Lord, called "firstfruits", to 1 Cor 15:23 which describes Jesus' glorification as being the "firstfruits" of resurrection??
Well, it sure looked like it to me, with your emphasis on 2 firstfruits statement, and mentioning Lev 23. It is very hard following the points you are trying to make.
So, what is the significance of 2 mentions of firstfruit in Lev 23? How does ANYTHING in Lev 23 relate to end times??? You've not made any of that clear.
I don't know what you are talking about here. Why even discuss a "wheat harvest", and is there a different harvest?
Please explain clearly.
What does any of this have to do with end times???
Who cares about 2 loaves and how it's harvested? You haven't explained anything.
Well, from my questions here, it is obvious that you still haven't made any "connections" between Lev 23 and end times.
Why do people try to connect literal baked bread, which are OFFERINGS to the Lord, called "firstfruits", to 1 Cor 15:23 which describes Jesus' glorification as being the "firstfruits" of resurrection??
Well, it sure looked like it to me, with your emphasis on 2 firstfruits statement, and mentioning Lev 23. It is very hard following the points you are trying to make.
So, what is the significance of 2 mentions of firstfruit in Lev 23? How does ANYTHING in Lev 23 relate to end times??? You've not made any of that clear.
I don't know what you are talking about here. Why even discuss a "wheat harvest", and is there a different harvest?
Please explain clearly.
What does any of this have to do with end times???
Who cares about 2 loaves and how it's harvested? You haven't explained anything.
Well, from my questions here, it is obvious that you still haven't made any "connections" between Lev 23 and end times.