Minimising our Axioms.

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T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#1
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#1
Minimising our starting points as we approach the scriptures.
I believe the less Axioms we have ( starting points) we have the better we will understand scriptures.
Here's a reduction to what I think we can all agree upon A place to begin our study with as little as possible bias , presuppositions , ' doctrines , ect in our minds before we attempt to understand what the bible is SAYING rather than what is presumed to TEACH .
Heres 3 .
1 The Bible Comes from God.

2. The Bible is true.

3 God cannot lie .

From this we ask observation questions ,in discovery mode ( not doctrines in search of a proof text)
Who
what
when
why
ect
Extra Axioms ; The sovereignty of God . The will of man , ect I'm sure you could think of many others .I believe is the wrong starting point .
As would be a set of doctrines.


Thoughts ?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#2
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#2
throughfaith said:
Minimising our starting points as we approach the scriptures.
I believe the less Axioms we have ( starting points) we have the better we will understand scriptures.
Here's a reduction to what I think we can all agree upon A place to begin our study with as little as possible bias , presuppositions , ' doctrines , ect in our minds before we attempt to understand what the bible is SAYING rather than what is presumed to TEACH .
Heres 3 .
1 The Bible Comes from God.

2. The Bible is true.

3 God cannot lie .

From this we ask observation questions ,in discovery mode ( not doctrines in search of a proof text)
Who
what
when
why
ect
Extra Axioms ; The sovereignty of God . The will of man , ect I'm sure you could think of many others .I believe is the wrong starting point .
As would be a set of doctrines.


Thoughts ?
Click to expand...
I think a very popular axiom found here is the covenant of grace doctrine taught in covenant theology.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-covenant-grace/
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#3
Jun 30, 2015
25,411
13,752
113
#3
throughfaith said:
Minimising our starting points as we approach the scriptures.
I believe the less Axioms we have ( starting points) we have the better we will understand scriptures.
Here's a reduction to what I think we can all agree upon A place to begin our study with as little as possible bias , presuppositions , ' doctrines , ect in our minds before we attempt to understand what the bible is SAYING rather than what is presumed to TEACH .
Heres 3 .
1 The Bible Comes from God.

2. The Bible is true.

3 God cannot lie .

From this we ask observation questions ,in discovery mode ( not doctrines in search of a proof text)
Who
what
when
why
ect
Extra Axioms ; The sovereignty of God . The will of man , ect I'm sure you could think of many others .I believe is the wrong starting point .
As would be a set of doctrines.


Thoughts ?
Click to expand...
I applaud your effort, but I would suggest that although each of your three statements is true, none is an axiom. All three are actually derived by reading the text of the Bible and getting to know its Author.

I propose just one axiom: The bible is not a work of fiction.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#4
Feb 24, 2009
3,230
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New Zealand
#4
Yeah..

Who is speaking to whom?
What is the subject?
What is the occasion?

Same sort of thing as who what where when why.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#6
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#6
Dino246 said:
I applaud your effort, but I would suggest that although each of your three statements is true, none is an axiom. All three are actually derived by reading the text of the Bible and getting to know its Author.

I propose just one axiom: The bible is not a work of fiction.
Click to expand...
I guess "The bible is not a work of fiction" is covered by the 3 i mentioned . I thought we'd need a ' who ' God and ' cannot lie '
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#7
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#7
throughfaith said:
Definitely 👍
Click to expand...
Just the first paragraph is the issue .
///The Reformed creeds and confessions express the continuity of God’s covenant of grace despite its many historical variations. For instance, the Heidelberg Catechism says: “…///
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#8
Jun 30, 2015
25,411
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#8
throughfaith said:
I guess "The bible is not a work of fiction" is covered by the 3 i mentioned . I thought we'd need a ' who ' God and ' cannot lie '
Click to expand...
Both of which are presented in the Bible. The point was to minimize the number of axioms, was it not? :)
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#9
Jul 31, 2013
37,788
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#9
throughfaith said:
Minimising our starting points as we approach the scriptures.
I believe the less Axioms we have ( starting points) we have the better we will understand scriptures.
Here's a reduction to what I think we can all agree upon A place to begin our study with as little as possible bias , presuppositions , ' doctrines , ect in our minds before we attempt to understand what the bible is SAYING rather than what is presumed to TEACH .
Heres 3 .
1 The Bible Comes from God.

2. The Bible is true.

3 God cannot lie .

From this we ask observation questions ,in discovery mode ( not doctrines in search of a proof text)
Who
what
when
why
ect
Extra Axioms ; The sovereignty of God . The will of man , ect I'm sure you could think of many others .I believe is the wrong starting point .
As would be a set of doctrines.


Thoughts ?
Click to expand...
2 follows from 1 & 3
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#12
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#12
So if we applied this method everytime we get in discussion about the bible, instead of hacking away at the leaves with endless verse ping ping, this would cut to the chase I feel . We may notice our starting assumptions and be able to recognise them and drop them if necessary.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#13
Jun 30, 2015
25,411
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#13
throughfaith said:
On top of the three given yes .
Click to expand...
That's where we disagree. I don't think the three statements you provided are, in fact, axioms.

If you use as an axiom something which can be derived through the process, you are engaging in circular reasoning. Further, the point of an axiom is that it cannot be derived, but rather must stand on its own, independently of the process of discovery.

Case in point: in mathematics, you cannot prove that 1 = 1. You must simply accept it as a fundamental truth. I'm sure @posthuman can give you many examples, and better explanations, of mathematical axioms; I'm working on little-used information from over 30 years ago.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#14
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#14
Dino246 said:
That's where we disagree. I don't think the three statements you provided are, in fact, axioms.

If you use as an axiom something which can be derived through the process, you are engaging in circular reasoning. Further, the point of an axiom is that it cannot be derived, but rather must stand on its own, independently of the process of discovery.

Case in point: in mathematics, you cannot prove that 1 = 1. You must simply accept it as a fundamental truth. I'm sure @posthuman can give you many examples, and better explanations, of mathematical axioms; I'm working on little-used information from over 30 years ago.
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with circular reasoning. Why do you believe the bible?
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#15
May 17, 2013
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#15
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#16
Jul 3, 2015
59,938
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#16
I start with: there is a God.

From this proceeds: He is the Creator of the universe, and the giver of life :)

Out of this springs: He has a purpose for creation, and us individually :D

The search for meaning and purpose is ages old. Knowing that
God loves, and knows what is best for us, underpins all else.

Allowing Him to then direct our lives makes much more sense ;)
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#17
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#17
Dino246 said:
That's where we disagree. I don't think the three statements you provided are, in fact, axioms.

If you use as an axiom something which can be derived through the process, you are engaging in circular reasoning. Further, the point of an axiom is that it cannot be derived, but rather must stand on its own, independently of the process of discovery.

Case in point: in mathematics, you cannot prove that 1 = 1. You must simply accept it as a fundamental truth. I'm sure @posthuman can give you many examples, and better explanations, of mathematical axioms; I'm working on little-used information from over 30 years ago.
Click to expand...
Can you prove those 3 points ?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#18
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#18
Dino246 said:
That's where we disagree. I don't think the three statements you provided are, in fact, axioms.

If you use as an axiom something which can be derived through the process, you are engaging in circular reasoning. Further, the point of an axiom is that it cannot be derived, but rather must stand on its own, independently of the process of discovery.

Case in point: in mathematics, you cannot prove that 1 = 1. You must simply accept it as a fundamental truth. I'm sure @posthuman can give you many examples, and better explanations, of mathematical axioms; I'm working on little-used information from over 30 years ago.
Click to expand...
Would it have been better to have said " before we approach the bible to have as little ' starting points ' as possible?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#19
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#19
Dino246 said:
I applaud your effort, but I would suggest that although each of your three statements is true, none is an axiom. All three are actually derived by reading the text of the Bible and getting to know its Author.

I propose just one axiom: The bible is not a work of fiction.
Click to expand...
' Not a work of fiction ' about what?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#20
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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#20
I can hit every verse , chapter , book ect with
1 The Bible Comes from God.

2. The Bible is true.

3 God cannot lie .
and who ,what ,when ,why and be in discovery mode as I go .
 
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