Reason for the "angry" God of the Old Testament.
- Thread starter pittsburghjoe
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I wrote about this a few years ago. It may help answer your question.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-god-a-moral-monster.187984/
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-god-a-moral-monster.187984/
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That's simple.
Tell 'em.........If you think God isn't an angry God, just keep living the way you are. One day soon, you will be the heir of His Wrath!
If you don't think God is a loving God, just repent and turn to Him! He will pour out His loving grace and mercy upon you, and you will live forever with Him!
Tell 'em.........If you think God isn't an angry God, just keep living the way you are. One day soon, you will be the heir of His Wrath!
If you don't think God is a loving God, just repent and turn to Him! He will pour out His loving grace and mercy upon you, and you will live forever with Him!
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The best way to shut them down is to walk away. If they will not listen to your arguments or point of view then they are not ready for what you have to say. They are not worth your time.
Are they monsters? If you define that as sinners then we all are monsters. If you mean wicked then yes. If you mean fools then yes. But without Christ, we were all in this same definition. They need love, forgiveness, mercy, grace, kindness, and trust before they feel safe to talk about foundation-shaking subjects.
Are they monsters? If you define that as sinners then we all are monsters. If you mean wicked then yes. If you mean fools then yes. But without Christ, we were all in this same definition. They need love, forgiveness, mercy, grace, kindness, and trust before they feel safe to talk about foundation-shaking subjects.
Of course, this wouldn't matter to the atheist if God doesn't exist, if the Bible isn't authoritative or Heaven and Hell don't exist.
Define torment Biblically? Is it possible their eternal existence is loving? Just as a father to a child that doesn't want anything to do with the father still cares for the child but gives them what they want. To be away from the father. God pulls away and they are in a place where the attributes of God are gone. The only way we experience anything good is through the attributes of God as we are created in His image. If God pulls away we are left with our carnal natural evil nature. Literally, a place without God is Hell. The souls in Hell wanted to be without God. God gives them exactly what they want.
God says in Romans all are without excuse. God has worked in nature, conscience, prophets, miracles, visions, dreams, etc. God gives people plenty of opportunities to respond.
Define torment Biblically? Is it possible their eternal existence is loving? Just as a father to a child that doesn't want anything to do with the father still cares for the child but gives them what they want. To be away from the father. God pulls away and they are in a place where the attributes of God are gone. The only way we experience anything good is through the attributes of God as we are created in His image. If God pulls away we are left with our carnal natural evil nature. Literally, a place without God is Hell. The souls in Hell wanted to be without God. God gives them exactly what they want.
God says in Romans all are without excuse. God has worked in nature, conscience, prophets, miracles, visions, dreams, etc. God gives people plenty of opportunities to respond.
Not a chance. The Bible and geological evidence confirms that the Flood was global.
Also, the only reason God has not unleashed His wrath on the ungodly is because the Gospel must first be preached in all the world. But He is the same God who is presently offering grace and mercy to sinners.
Also, the only reason God has not unleashed His wrath on the ungodly is because the Gospel must first be preached in all the world. But He is the same God who is presently offering grace and mercy to sinners.
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Some did yes, obviously some were utterly wicked, but yes, before Christ all the races with exception to Israel lost the knowledge of God. We can actually sort of see this in the Bible as in the early parts of Genesis there is an almost universal recognition of God, and that makes logical sense since God saved Noah and his sons whom are the fathers of everyone alive today, but by the time we get to Abraham there are very few that retain the knowledge of God, and by the time of Moses it's pretty much just Israel and those that sojourn with them.
The good news is that with Christ's birth, crucifixion, and resurrection then the knowledge of God began to spread to the other races via the apostles (this forms a large plot point of book of Acts and the backdrop for Paul's letters) so that the world may be given the knowledge of God again so that it has no excuses. On the other hand though this means the world will be even more wicked on this side of history because they will simply reject God and his good ways, thus the extreme curses of the book of Revelation that are promised for them culminating ultimately in the total destruction of creation. Though one good turn deserving another, this also means that those that believe in Jesus and his good ways will indeed inherit the promise of God of eternal life.
This passage comes to my mind immediately, and I think is fairly decent in supporting this notion:
Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
The good news is that with Christ's birth, crucifixion, and resurrection then the knowledge of God began to spread to the other races via the apostles (this forms a large plot point of book of Acts and the backdrop for Paul's letters) so that the world may be given the knowledge of God again so that it has no excuses. On the other hand though this means the world will be even more wicked on this side of history because they will simply reject God and his good ways, thus the extreme curses of the book of Revelation that are promised for them culminating ultimately in the total destruction of creation. Though one good turn deserving another, this also means that those that believe in Jesus and his good ways will indeed inherit the promise of God of eternal life.
This passage comes to my mind immediately, and I think is fairly decent in supporting this notion:
Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
The Father described in the OT is no more angry than his Son. Nor is the Son described in the NT any more patiently loving than his Father. They're exactly the same.
God has always been longsuffering toward the evil of mankind,
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him: But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God. Ecc.8:11-13
Just because our Lord didn't immediately pass judgement on people who mercilessly abused him doesnt mean they won't pay for their crimes unless they repent in the time he graciously offers. Someday, the unrepentant will say,
hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev.6:16
God has always been longsuffering toward the evil of mankind,
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him: But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God. Ecc.8:11-13
Just because our Lord didn't immediately pass judgement on people who mercilessly abused him doesnt mean they won't pay for their crimes unless they repent in the time he graciously offers. Someday, the unrepentant will say,
hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev.6:16
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