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S
Every bible student has a right to present their views on eschatological scripture interpretation without being accused of attempting to deceive people. It is a Bible Discussion forum. If you have different views and present those views and someone thinks your interpretation is faulty they should tell you why and not accuse you of trying to deceive anyone. You would appreciate that approach. We should treat others the way we want to be treated.
Also if you have read enough of Oyster67 posts in the past you should have been able to recognize his good godly spirit and genuine love for the Lord Jesus and recognize that he is not one who has any interest in deceiving anyone.
Your readiness to suggest that his views are an attempt to deceive makes any view you present suspect, since you do not seem to have the discernment to know a brother from their posts and do not appear to know how to love. The lack of love makes your interpretations suspect before they are even heard. So... lighten up bro!
The context of 2 Thess 2 is that they had received letters from someone claiming to be from Paul suggesting that they were already in the Day of the Lord. Read any commentary written in the past 200 years. Or read at least a few and whether the author is Pre, Post or Amillennial they all agree that when Paul said "Let no man deceive you by any means" he is referring to this...
“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”
Paul is saying not to be shaken in mind that the day of the Lord had already started, and not to be deceived by a letter as from us that it they were already entered into the day of the Lord.
Now your post seems to be suggesting that Paul was saying that expecting the Coming of Jesus Christ at anytime is deception. As though he were teaching them not to expect the coming of the Lord until the antichrist is revealed.
There are a great body of scriptures, many of them by Paul that teach the sudden coming of the Lord and our being ready.
You seem to be suggesting that to think that way is wrong. As if you think that Paul is saying that we are to look for the rebuilding of the temple first. Or that we are to look for the revelation of the son of perdition first.
Looking for the sudden return of Christ is what we are to look for not the antichrist. The antichrist standing in the holy place is the proof that the Day of the Lord has started, which is the day of wrath and judgments prophesied by the prophets and in Revelation.
They had been given a letter as from Paul or the apostles (us) that they were in the day of the Lord. That was the deception someone was trying to pull.
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
You might think you are on to something by using this passage to teach that Paul was saying that we will not be gathered until after the antichrist is revealed and you should present your reasons why you believe that is what he intended to say. But someone else who disagrees will be tempted to say you are trying deceive us by removing all of the teachings in the New Testament that tell us to live ready for the sudden appearing of Christ. As if Paul changed all of those scriptures with this one.
And I am going to assume you are not trying to deceive us but that you are simply mistaken in your hermeneutic.
Also if you have read enough of Oyster67 posts in the past you should have been able to recognize his good godly spirit and genuine love for the Lord Jesus and recognize that he is not one who has any interest in deceiving anyone.
Your readiness to suggest that his views are an attempt to deceive makes any view you present suspect, since you do not seem to have the discernment to know a brother from their posts and do not appear to know how to love. The lack of love makes your interpretations suspect before they are even heard. So... lighten up bro!
The context of 2 Thess 2 is that they had received letters from someone claiming to be from Paul suggesting that they were already in the Day of the Lord. Read any commentary written in the past 200 years. Or read at least a few and whether the author is Pre, Post or Amillennial they all agree that when Paul said "Let no man deceive you by any means" he is referring to this...
“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”
Paul is saying not to be shaken in mind that the day of the Lord had already started, and not to be deceived by a letter as from us that it they were already entered into the day of the Lord.
Now your post seems to be suggesting that Paul was saying that expecting the Coming of Jesus Christ at anytime is deception. As though he were teaching them not to expect the coming of the Lord until the antichrist is revealed.
There are a great body of scriptures, many of them by Paul that teach the sudden coming of the Lord and our being ready.
You seem to be suggesting that to think that way is wrong. As if you think that Paul is saying that we are to look for the rebuilding of the temple first. Or that we are to look for the revelation of the son of perdition first.
Looking for the sudden return of Christ is what we are to look for not the antichrist. The antichrist standing in the holy place is the proof that the Day of the Lord has started, which is the day of wrath and judgments prophesied by the prophets and in Revelation.
They had been given a letter as from Paul or the apostles (us) that they were in the day of the Lord. That was the deception someone was trying to pull.
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
You might think you are on to something by using this passage to teach that Paul was saying that we will not be gathered until after the antichrist is revealed and you should present your reasons why you believe that is what he intended to say. But someone else who disagrees will be tempted to say you are trying deceive us by removing all of the teachings in the New Testament that tell us to live ready for the sudden appearing of Christ. As if Paul changed all of those scriptures with this one.
And I am going to assume you are not trying to deceive us but that you are simply mistaken in your hermeneutic.
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That is exactly what Paul is saying which proves the pre-trib rapture cannot be true.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
This is the second coming and the rapturing of the saints.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
This means to be soon, close enough to your hand that something can be grabbed.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
That day cannot happen until the falling away and revealing of the man of sin happens which means no pre-trib rapture.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
This is the second coming and the rapturing of the saints.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
This means to be soon, close enough to your hand that something can be grabbed.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
That day cannot happen until the falling away and revealing of the man of sin happens which means no pre-trib rapture.
S
But the same Paul also wrote:
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil 4:5
So it has to be interpreted with all the other verses about the coming of the Lord. If the Day of Christ is the same as the Day of the Lord. And if we have entered into the Day of the Lord then these things will be proof. This has not happened yet so we are not technically in the Day of the Lord. If you interpret "at hand" meaning at any moment, and say that we must not expect the return of the Lord at any moment, then you have to explain many other verses of scripture. Below are only a sample of many others.
I do think it is obvious that the gathering together unto Him occurs very near the event of the Antichrist being revealed. This can all happen in a very short time frame. The same day even. This is why both can be true. The Day of the Lord will not officially begin until this prophetic event and also the saints will be gathered unto Him when this event occurs. This is a possible interpretation.
I cannot insist on a period of time of days or months or years between the revelation of the son of perdition and the gathering of the saints unto Him based on this scripture. The revelation of that Wicked will be sign that the Day of the Lord has began, and if that has happened then they would have reason to be shaken in mind. But we are not to be shaken in mind because we are promised escape from that day of wrath. So be comforted that you have not entered into the Day of the Lord. That is not going to happen. You will be gathered unto Him before the antichrist is revealed to the world. This is what I think he is saying based on the "shaken in mind" reason.
And this interpretation reconciles with all those that tell us to live expecting his sudden appearing. Not that we are waiting for the temple to be rebuilt.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Philippians 4:5
Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand;
Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Corinthians 1:7
So that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 16:15
(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
I allow my brothers to have a different opinion about the timing of the rapture and the Day of the Lord and not think they are trying to deceive people. It is not a false doctrine. It is simply a matter of trying to understand what the scriptures mean and what the Lord wants us to do about it. For the most part we should be able to all agree that we are to live every ready for the coming of the Lord.
That there will be an end time out pouring of judgments.
That we must live ready to be found in Him without spot and blameless at His appearing.
That we are promised deliverance from the wrath to come.
These are the main ideas we get from all the scripturas combined. The rest we can allow each other to speculate where the scriptures are not crystal clear but we should not strive and accuse one another of false teaching over the timing of the rapture.
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil 4:5
So it has to be interpreted with all the other verses about the coming of the Lord. If the Day of Christ is the same as the Day of the Lord. And if we have entered into the Day of the Lord then these things will be proof. This has not happened yet so we are not technically in the Day of the Lord. If you interpret "at hand" meaning at any moment, and say that we must not expect the return of the Lord at any moment, then you have to explain many other verses of scripture. Below are only a sample of many others.
I do think it is obvious that the gathering together unto Him occurs very near the event of the Antichrist being revealed. This can all happen in a very short time frame. The same day even. This is why both can be true. The Day of the Lord will not officially begin until this prophetic event and also the saints will be gathered unto Him when this event occurs. This is a possible interpretation.
I cannot insist on a period of time of days or months or years between the revelation of the son of perdition and the gathering of the saints unto Him based on this scripture. The revelation of that Wicked will be sign that the Day of the Lord has began, and if that has happened then they would have reason to be shaken in mind. But we are not to be shaken in mind because we are promised escape from that day of wrath. So be comforted that you have not entered into the Day of the Lord. That is not going to happen. You will be gathered unto Him before the antichrist is revealed to the world. This is what I think he is saying based on the "shaken in mind" reason.
And this interpretation reconciles with all those that tell us to live expecting his sudden appearing. Not that we are waiting for the temple to be rebuilt.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Philippians 4:5
Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand;
Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Corinthians 1:7
So that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 16:15
(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
I allow my brothers to have a different opinion about the timing of the rapture and the Day of the Lord and not think they are trying to deceive people. It is not a false doctrine. It is simply a matter of trying to understand what the scriptures mean and what the Lord wants us to do about it. For the most part we should be able to all agree that we are to live every ready for the coming of the Lord.
That there will be an end time out pouring of judgments.
That we must live ready to be found in Him without spot and blameless at His appearing.
That we are promised deliverance from the wrath to come.
These are the main ideas we get from all the scripturas combined. The rest we can allow each other to speculate where the scriptures are not crystal clear but we should not strive and accuse one another of false teaching over the timing of the rapture.
Well actually he isn't wrong, The rapture happening at any moment doesn't really seem to fit God's ways of doing things, he is a God of order and always warns and gives certain signs before anything happenings honestly a random rapture doesn't seem to fit the bill but he did say what to look for to be watchful and we see many of these but what was the pone major sign to be watching for? Honestly I think the sign of the son of man would be it, Jesus mentions there would be famine and plauge wars and rumors of wars but these things have existed since the beginning of time and sadly mankind is unable to learn from their mistakes so history is often repeated.
However a sign of the son of man has only ever happened once if you believe the star of Bethlehem to be that aside from that I have no idea what the sign of the son of man would be.
If the star of Bethlehem is in fact that sign then we had it in december although it wasn't the full star of Bethlehem it is the only thing that close to it and wasn't visible to the naked eye for 800 years prior
But I do want to know what all to look for if in fact the rapture is at hand, I have sensed it as well as many others I have had many dreams and visions of it including the wedding but I still think it is not quite here yet. Don't get me wrong I think is dangerously close but I think some things have to happen first
However a sign of the son of man has only ever happened once if you believe the star of Bethlehem to be that aside from that I have no idea what the sign of the son of man would be.
If the star of Bethlehem is in fact that sign then we had it in december although it wasn't the full star of Bethlehem it is the only thing that close to it and wasn't visible to the naked eye for 800 years prior
But I do want to know what all to look for if in fact the rapture is at hand, I have sensed it as well as many others I have had many dreams and visions of it including the wedding but I still think it is not quite here yet. Don't get me wrong I think is dangerously close but I think some things have to happen first
Yes. Explain why Paul would correct others that thought the second coming was "at hand" and in another letter tell people the opposite?
The Lord is at hand. That means the Lord is close to us and we should know that because he is always with us. That is different than saying:
The Lord's return is at hand, or referring to the second coming as "That day is at hand".
Just read the passage and you will see the context is not about when the Lord returns. Not even the same Greek word is used in the two verses being discussed.