Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Runningman]

@FreeGrace2

After reflecting on this topic some more I realized I did not answer on your questions. About who the he is that is restraining the "mystery of iniquity" or some versions say the "mystery of lawlessness."

In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

I want to focus on verse 7 specifically:

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The pronoun used in this verse is masculine he. This makes me think this is talking about a person. This could be a reference to either the Holy Spirit or maybe even Michael the Archangel. What is being restrained is Satan so who is powerful enough to do that? God Himself or maybe one of His angels who can win a fight against Satan like Michael.

I've heard people say the he that is restraining lawlessness is the church. What do you think?

 

[cv5]

On the contrary, we've been listening for an answer, and NO pre-tribber has given one. So there's NOTHING to hear yet.


Hey, that's OUR question to YOU. Where are the verses that convince one that Jesus takes glorified saints back up to heaven?
Where, where, where are they?


Oh, we've been asking asking asking, and looking looking looking for quite a while, and all we get are the kind of posts that you give; no evidence at all. Just a whole lot of conjecture and construct.


Based on the FACTS of Scripture, and your total inability to find any evidence that supports your conjecture.


On the contrary, our starting place is the Bible. Please don't call the Bible "one dimension".


On the contrary, that is our conclusion, based on the facts that have already been presented.


What is bizarre is all the ignoring of the FACTS that pre-tribbers ignore.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These are the absolute facts that cannot be denied.

Despite your multitude of posts I have not budged from my pretrib position one iota.
Why? Your hopelessly addled eschatological exegesis. It's a mess take my word for it.

 

[Runningman]

"your" verses?? Which verses?? You haven't shown any yet.


When are you going to share them?


No, our center is the Bible, unlike your center.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These are the absolute facts that cannot be denied.

Well said. Nicely numbered and laid out clearly in an easy to understand format. I might have to borrow that some time if it's ok.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2

After reflecting on this topic some more I realized I did not answer on your questions. About who the he is that is restraining the "mystery of iniquity" or some versions say the "mystery of lawlessness."

In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

I want to focus on verse 7 specifically:

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The pronoun used in this verse is masculine he. This makes me think this is talking about a person. This could be a reference to either the Holy Spirit or maybe even Michael the Archangel. What is being restrained is Satan so who is powerful enough to do that? God Himself or maybe one of His angels who can win a fight against Satan like Michael.

I've heard people say the he that is restraining lawlessness is the church. What do you think?

Hi. Thanks for remembering my question. I was taught from an early age a pre-trib rapture. Along the way, I was taught that the Holy Spirit leaves along with the Church at the rapture.

Well, when I began reading through the NT regularly I started to really pay attention to things. Here's what came to mind.

We know the Tribulation will see a human being ruling the world (Beast aka antichrist). The nations will give their sovereignty to him. So, up until now, what has been keeping any single ruler from taking over? Various nations that have been a sort of "moral policeman". In the 19th Century it was England. When that nation faded from power, the USA became that moral policeman.

So it seems to me what "restrains" is a nation based on moral principles. And when finally there are no nations to be the world's moral policeman, there will be no restrainer to prevent such a one world government from taking over.

So, at the present time, it seems to me that the USA is the current "restrainer". If the one world government is just around the corner, as many think, and I tend to agree, then the "him" or "it" would be the USA.

Given that we've just witnessed a complete take-over of the USA by marxists, functionally, it seems it will be the current administration, which is very "global" in viewpoint, will gladly hand over power to a one world government.

Just my thoughts. I could be completely way off base.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Despite your multitude of posts I have not budged from my pretrib position one iota.

That is totally fine with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone. That mission belongs to the Holy Spirit. All I am doing is presenting truth from the Bible. What people do with it is between them and God. It's none of my business.

Why? Your hopelessly addled eschatological exegesis. It's a mess take my word for it.

No, I won't take your word for anything. Pre-tribbers have no case whatsoever. So they use a huge heaping of conjecture and mix it thoroughly with construct to come up with the baseless idea that Jesus takes glorified believers back to heaven.

If Jesus was going to take glorified believers back to heaven, there is no doubt that we would find that idea clearly stated in Scripture.

Instead, all we have is a bunch of conjecture and construct. No evidence at all.

And that's a fact.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well said. Nicely numbered and laid out clearly in an easy to understand format. I might have to borrow that some time if it's ok.

Well, thank you. You may borrow anything you need any time you want.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These numbered facts must be proven wrong FROM SCRIPTURE (not conjecture or construct) in order to defend the pre-trib position.

 

[Runningman]

Hi. Thanks for remembering my question. I was taught from an early age a pre-trib rapture. Along the way, I was taught that the Holy Spirit leaves along with the Church at the rapture.

Well, when I began reading through the NT regularly I started to really pay attention to things. Here's what came to mind.

We know the Tribulation will see a human being ruling the world (Beast aka antichrist). The nations will give their sovereignty to him. So, up until now, what has been keeping any single ruler from taking over? Various nations that have been a sort of "moral policeman". In the 19th Century it was England. When that nation faded from power, the USA became that moral policeman.

So it seems to me what "restrains" is a nation based on moral principles. And when finally there are no nations to be the world's moral policeman, there will be no restrainer to prevent such a one world government from taking over.

So, at the present time, it seems to me that the USA is the current "restrainer". If the one world government is just around the corner, as many think, and I tend to agree, then the "him" or "it" would be the USA.

Given that we've just witnessed a complete take-over of the USA by marxists, functionally, it seems it will be the current administration, which is very "global" in viewpoint, will gladly hand over power to a one world government.

Just my thoughts. I could be completely way off base.

I was not raised in Christianity. When I learned what I did about the end times, I did it by picking up and reading the Bible. The pretribulation rapture doctrine was foreign to me until a year ago. When I first digested it I gave it an honest look, but I can't find any Biblical support for it.

I think you are into something significant with saying that the restrainer is a government. God ordains governments and policeman as a deterrent to evil. Romans 13:1-7 is a good read about this. So definitely something to consider for sure and I think what you said holds water. I'll think about it and examine it for a while and see if I realize anything.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Actually in this matter the Jesuit Futurists as well as evangelical and fundamentalists futurists are all on the right track. You are the one who is resisting the truth.

Actually, Protestants, or “fundamentalists” as you say, got it from the Jesuits when Protestants began adopting a new strategy — “stop protesting”.

We true Protestants have this terrible problem that prevents us a Catholic church that can’t even get milk doctrines like “salvation by grace through faith” correct should be trusted to interpret the T-bone steaks of the Word like eschatology 🤔

I hold that one view is true.......the pretrib rapture view. The alternative views clearly don't work on any conceivable level. The main failing being the incapacity to understand the difference between the Church and Israel. And a woeful misapprehension of prophecy.

You're not going to like the sound of this but you don't know what you're talking about. That being said your situation could not be more dire. I would urge you to take heed of what is being posted on this thread. That is if you want to avoid the great tribulation which by all accounts is at the very doorstep.

Well, according to Galatians 3:29 KJV, "Israel" has nothing to do with the people who occupy a tiny fragment of what was once the great Promised Land, and everything to do with the true "Abraham's seed" - those who belong to Christ which comprise the Christian church - it seems that it is your interpretation of end times prophecy which is a misapprehension.

Furthermore, there are so many plot holes with Jesuit Futurism, it's no wonder why it doesn't hold any water. For instance, how can their be 7 years of tribulation after Jesus comes as a thief when 2 Peter 3:10 KJV plainly says there won't even be 7 more minutes when Jesus comes as a thief?

 

[Phoneman-777]

What do you believe about this?

I know from Scripture that "one taken, other left" applies to the Second Coming - not some mythological "secret rapture" - where the "taken" ones will be killed by the "brightness of His coming" just as the Flood came upon the Antediluvians and "took them all away".

The Bible no where teaches 7 years separates the "gathering together with Him" of the saints from the Second Coming. 1 Thess. 4:16-18 KJV plainly says the dead and living saints are gathered with Jesus in the clouds when He comes with a Shout, the Voice of the Archangel, and with the Trump of God" which anyone can see is anything but "secret".

 

[cv5]

Actually, Protestants, or “fundamentalists” as you say, got it from the Jesuits when Protestants began adopting a new strategy — “stop protesting”.

We true Protestants have this terrible problem that prevents us a Catholic church that can’t even get milk doctrines like “salvation by grace through faith” correct should be trusted to interpret the T-bone steaks of the Word like eschatology 🤔

Well, according to Galatians 3:29 KJV, "Israel" has nothing to do with the people who occupy a tiny fragment of what was once the great Promised Land, and everything to do with the true "Abraham's seed" - those who belong to Christ which comprise the Christian church - it seems that it is your interpretation of end times prophecy which is a misapprehension.

Furthermore, there are so many plot holes with Jesuit Futurism, it's no wonder why it doesn't hold any water. For instance, how can their be 7 years of tribulation after Jesus comes as a thief when 2 Peter 3:10 KJV plainly says there won't even be 7 more minutes when Jesus comes as a thief?

See what I mean? Hopeless. Replacement theology is a heresy BTW. I am prone to putting amillennialism into the same category. I mean what else can you do with a doctrine that jettisons two thirds of the Bible?

 

[ewq1938]

See what I mean? Hopeless. Replacement theology is a heresy BTW. I am prone to putting amillennialism into the same category.

Why not put all three there? Pre-trib, RT, Amill.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You do not see any pattern there? Noah is in the ark 7 days before. Church is where how long before the trib?

Yes, I see a definite pattern: in the days of Noah, there was only a warning requiring those who would heed it to do so by faith alone until supernatural destruction hit the unsuspecting wicked in the form of a Flood.

Any eschatological interpretation which deviates from this Christ-affirmed template must be discarded.

Therefore, we now witness the going forth of a warning which, too, must be heeded by faith alone until the sudden appearance of our Lord Who is coming "as a thief in the night" with fire to gather the dead and living saints to Him in the clouds while the wicked drop dead all over the Earth "at the brightness of His coming".

There is no room for a "secret rapture" in any scenario which incorporates "the days of Noah" as a template.

 

[Phoneman-777]

See what I mean? Hopeless. Replacement theology is a heresy BTW. I am prone to putting amillennialism into the same category. I mean what else can you do with a doctrine that jettisons two thirds of the Bible?

Why do you deny the truth of Galatians 3:29 KJV or Galatians 6:16? The one says only those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed while the other pronounces peace upon the Israel of God, which are those who walk by the rule of a new creature in Christ.

Those Khazarian descendants occupying the "holy land" today who refer to Jesus as "the great imposter" and "son of a whore" have nothing to do with Abraham's seed -- because you can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find one instance where God gathered Israel back to the land after scattering them for rebellion without them having first repented. The events of 1948 were orchestrated by the Luciferian U.N., the Luciferian Deep State of the U.S., and by Luciferian Papal intrigue, not by the hand of God.

 

[Phoneman-777]

They were "lost [unsaved]" persons for the entire 120 years Noah was preparing the ark and being a preacher of righteousness... and they "disobeyed" all that long time... The word "knew" ("they knew not") is NOT defined as "they'd never heard a thing about it"... It's that they heard the warning / the Word of God via Noah, and DISREGARDED it... They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage CLEAR UP TO the day Noah entered the ark, with no regard to the Word of God via Noah, the building of the ark, the parade of animals coming to Noah to board ship... they disregarded ALL THAT for MANY YEARS! (over a hundred years, most likely... coz 1Pet3:20 says "while the ark was preparing"... all that while they "apeithēsasin [G544 - a word that carries the meaning of "DISBELIEVED"]")

... the same thing that (for example) those who will witness the death of the "2W" (you probably don't believe they are literal "THESE TWO PROPHETS"), "they that dwell upon the earth" will "REJOICE OVER THEM" (that they've been killed) "and MAKE MERRY, and SHALL SEND GIFTS to one another"... at the time-frame of the "6th Trumpet events [when the "2nd Woe" will be just about to be announced as "past"--meaning the "1st Woe unto the earth" IS well-past--and THAT one's at MID-TRIB--3.5 years INTO this thing, already]"... so they're already FAR INTO THE TRIB and they are OBLIVIOUS of all the SIGNS that have already been blazing all around them, and "our Rapture" event that preceded ALL of that OVER 3.5 years EARLIER (which many will INCORRECTLY label as the "gather ye FIRST the TARES" as having happened, when they are only aware ppl have gone MISSING, that's it! [a wrong "application" of that passage, however])



Ppl that DISREGARD God's Word (via any form it's presented) WILL NOT be aware, *because* they "DISBELIEVE" and thus will not give a hoot about "counting down to the end / to His "RETURN" [which they will not even BELIEVE IN]" !! (ONLY "the RIGHTEOUS" / "the WISE" will heed God's Word, at that time--why are you expecting "the WICKED" [also the "ye CURSED" Jesus will call them] to concern themselves with such a thing, when they will NOT BELIEVE IT, "just as in Noah's day"--ONLY NOAH [and crew] "knew" AND PREPARED... no one else BELIEVED the Word of God via Noah / the warning... again, "KNEW" does NOT mean they'd NEVER HEARD... NO. Doesn't mean that!)



I think you're hung up on a fictional version of things that someone has presented to you, and you can't seem to move past it. Like a mental block.

The SAME WORD is used here:

[G1097] - John 10:6 - John 10:6 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

https://biblehub.com/text/john/10-6.htm

"Jesus spoke to them this allegory, but they did not know [G1097] what it was that He was saying to them."

The word does not mean they'd never heard a thing about it... just that in their disbelieving (meaning, those back in Noah's day--the Word of God via Noah) it had no impact on their own preparation, because they disregarded the Word of God via Noah... thus they perished in the flood ("and took them all away"... in judgment).

[Lk17:27,29 "and destroyed them ALL" is NOT what takes place following "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but what takes place at the time of His Second Coming to the earth--but they (certain ones, not all!) will NOT BELIEVE He is coming, see... so why would ppl who DON'T BELIEVE be "counting the days"?? They'll be mocking those who WILL BE and who DO KNOW (at that time)]

The Bible asks that we use "reason" when we study it...it's not reasonable to think people who witness a "secret rapture" are going to be surprised by the Second Coming exactly 7 years later when it's going to be all anyone will be talking about.

For heaven's sake, have you forgotten the hysteria in 2012 when people all over the planet thought the world might end over a stupid pagan calendar?

Yet, you expect us to believe the majority of Earth's witnesses to the most incredible phenomenon to strike the Earth in the form of the so-called "secret rapture" will result in most people dismissing the Bible as nonsense - and regard what Jesuit Futurists claim is a prediction of the return of Jesus 7 years later - as not even worthy of looking up from a morning newspaper? It's just not reasonable to think that way, friend!

 

[Phoneman-777]

No, I think you're head has been in the sand, so that you are unaware of the multitudes of scholars who agree that ALL of Matthew 24 is about events FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (what I'm saying)





Paul, in his TWO CHPTS (CONTEXT) of 2Th1&2 is telling of the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl will come to embrace FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. in the LEAD UP to His "RETURN" to the earth / 2nd Coming to the earth [that TIME-PERIOD, tho not all will believe they're IN SUCH ])... Scripture, whenever it uses these two phrases in close proximity, ALWAYS refers to the SAME TIME PERIOD, and Paul here uses BOTH in this wider CONTEXT: "the Day of the Lord = IN THAT DAY" (as also in this CONTEXT). It refers to the Trib years (the "IN THE NIGHT" time period when the "man of sin" will be present to DO ALL he is slated to DO over those 7 years... from SEAL #1 to Rev19--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of, as do a cpl other passages I've pointed out, using that phrase)

Trust me, when most Jesuit Futurists hear "taken/left", they immediately think of the "secret rapture". Might be poll worthy.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Let's just cover this first point. = )

[as I said in the other posts where we were covering this]... only as much of a "front row seat" as there was on the day of Jesus' FIRST ascension (ON His Resurrection Day, Lev23:10-12 / 1Cor15:20), a time when no one witnessed VISIBLY His "[active] I ASCEND" that very day (John 20:17).

It was only TOLD to MM, and He told her to "SAY UNTO [My brethren]..." about it.

[later that same day, late in the evening, "He UPBRAIDED them [the 11] for their UNBELIEF and HARDNESS OF HEART *because* they DID NOT BELIEVE those who had seen Him after He had risen." [MM included!] - Mark 16:14 ("He appeared FIRST to MM" Mark 16:9... and He had TOLD her what to "SAY UNTO them" John 20:17)]

Perhaps there will be a few ppl who see them/us "VANISH"... I've already pointed out that the manner in which "our Rapture" will take place will be A PRIMARY IMPETUS that helps Israel turn in faith to their Messiah (Jesus Christ), but this will be during a time period of great deception and grave persecution (Matt24:4-8)... few would "believe" them about it even if it is told them...

...however, (what I just said about "Paul's 2nd Letter" [Thess])... this parallels precisely what is said about "Elijah's letter" that "came to" so-and-so (2Chron21:12)... which ppl like atheists today point out that passage as being "inconsistent" ("not true," according to them) because the letter from him came to so-and-so long after Elijah would have been GONE in the whirlwind (as though this make the Bible *obviously* UNTRUE, according to them... but they are mis-reading the passage... It does NOT state that "Elijah then sat down and penned so-and-so a letter"... NO. The text states, "a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying..." [meaning an entirely different thing! and ENTIRELY POSSIBLE *after he WAS GONE,* [b/c delivered via SOMEONE ELSE!] see ])


a little bit at a time... chew carefully... = D

Bro, your end time scenario in no way resembles what happened in Noah's day:

• In Noah's day, the Earth was totally destroyed and, among other things, is why the granite superstructure which is supposed to be down there is sticking up all over the place up here, leaving us to deal with plate tectonics, earthquakes, etc., but Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist theology has no such destruction accompanying the "secret rapture" or the Second Coming.
• The Antediluvians all were forced to walk by faith while those "left behind" will be walking by sight.
• The Antediluvians had every reason to believe Noah was crazy, while the "left behind" will have "secret rapture" evidence scattered all over the planet.
• The survival rate among the Antediluvians was something like 8:1 million bazillion, while Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurists claim no such near extinction of humanity accompanies the "secret rapture" or the Second Coming.

Jesus said, "...in the days of Noah" -- He didn't say "...in the days of Jesuit "Counter-Reformation" propaganda".

 

[Phoneman-777]

Think of it this way: Jesus draws the analogy between the flood and the time of the 70th week Tribulation. There are no preceding signs for either. Only preaching and witnessing.

Where does the Bible say there is a "70th week tribulation" exactly? Because last time I checked, the 70th Week started immediately after the 69th week expired as Jesus came walking up out of the Jordan to commence His Earthly ministry...and culminated with the Gospel going to the Gentiles 7 years later.

What you fail to comprehend is that the time of the Tribulation is coming as a thief. Once it begins Jesus is coming 84 months later precisely.

Again, where does the Bible say this? It's purely subjective theology. There's nothing in all of Scripture directing us to chop off the 70th week and send it down to the end of time and no other Numerically Specific Time Prophecy in the entire Bible is treated as such. If the 70th week is still future, Gabriel would have called it the "69 weeks plus 2,000 years and counting plus one more week" prophecy - not a "70 Weeks" prophecy.

That's how you deal with the concept of coming as a thief. Many times the GT and SC are spoken about as a total package. Because they are....... By the way.......taking that perspective eliminates enormous amounts of supposed paradoxes and conflicts. In reality they do not exist.

Jesus' coming "as a thief in the night" refers to "suddenness", not "secrecy". He Himself said if people say, "He is in the SECRET chambers, believe it not" but you guys insist on enshrouding His coming in secrecy!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus' coming "as a thief in the night" refers to

Show me the reference [/references] to Jesus coming "as a thief IN THE NIGHT"

[with the "IN THE NIGHT" phrase added]

 

[Phoneman-777]

Sure there could be some kind of global chaos nobody knows for sure. All we DO know is that we won't be here to suffer the consequences. We also DO know that there is going to be a worldwide deception/cover-up. The MSM propaganda machine is very very good at doing that...!

Sorry, but we're going to be down here in the midst of the 7 Last Plagues of Revelation just as surely as Israel was in the midst of the 7 last plagues in Egypt...and just as protected.