Thanks for taking the time to sum it up for me.
I still don't get it. And I probably never will ( I don't think I'm the only one, though).
But thanks for trying.
Rev 1921
- Thread starter oyster67
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Thanks for taking the time to sum it up for me.
I still don't get it. And I probably never will ( I don't think I'm the only one, though).
But thanks for trying.
Hey my bother I was reading and then just noticed that you are right Christ never said that. Yet its what you posted. You knew Christ never said "caught up (rapture) is imminent" yet also knowing (only guessing) that what you said is not written.
So hard for me to just say a few lines and hit "post". There is SO much more to this. Christ goes back to make WHO a home? And IF He really did leave .. He can't ever lie said that He will come back receive them unto Himself so WHERE He is they will be. Thinking He lied or does not know when. Well not long after that "are you going to rule now? Of those times and seasons only the Father knows". Hmm
Then Paul.. who since Paul has had such a great revelation from God? He saw something, knew something. For me reading it..not like watching the movies "it has a time stamp on it". Seems what God showed him had not time stamp. Well for me if I was not sure didn't know I would say "them or they or those". Paul never did. Paul from what God not man GOD showed him said dead rise.. but WE. Now thats just it huh.. WHEN did this change? There is nothing in the word saying tribulation has to come first then caught up. There is no PRE trib has to happen first. There is no mid has to happen first. There is Post have to happen first. See I KNOW what I say comes clearly across as PRE TRIB. I have to be true. I know its not written so I will not talk as if its fact. What gets left out so much is "this is what I believe and heres why".
I am I the only one that sees knows I have ALL power ALL authority over the enemy. Now it does not stop there. Christ said I am in the Father and you in me and I in you. Yeah.. so how in the world can one get past Rev telling us "It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation" Its very clear. And odd the Church is NO WHERE in after Chapter 4. And? Its ok! Lot had to be gone "as long as you are here I an do nothing". But now again something has changed. We know His wrath/judgement is on the whole world..all in the world. No place on the planet to hide this time and? Its ok! God will protect us....granted Lot HAD to gone or Gods wrath would not come but now.. its coming on the whole earth no place to hide.. just questions.
Man if I could like some of you put all this in to 4 lines haha I would have sorry. So since I know there is no verse and would have to add and then speculate... I figure.. why not live for Him in this moment I have been given and live as if He is coming right now. There is no man Since Christ was here that knows the answer. Yet some put faith in what someone else said. I have always seen Him coming before the great tribulation. No verse so I have to be wise and just live for Him now!
Christ placed his return and the gathering of the saints post-trib.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Of course it's comfort.
His arrival is both terror to those who don't know him and glory to those those who do.
That is how his coming is illustrated in all prophecy.
The fact that the rapture is a good thing doesn't imply there won't be bad things preceding it.
2 Thess 1
6 God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when
the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marvelled at among all those
who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Do your homework. Here are the words of Christ regarding the imminent coming of Christ for His saints:
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:42)...Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:44)... Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:13)...
Why are people afraid of the imminent coming of Christ for the Resurrection/Rapture? Because they are afraid to meet Him being unprepared.
The following passage (John 14:1-3) confirms that (1) no Tribulation period is connected with the Rapture and (2) Christ takes His saints back to Heaven to be with Him eternally: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house [Heaven] are many mansions [in the New Jerusalem]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again [AT THE RAPTURE], and receive you unto myself; that where I am [IN HEAVEN], there ye may be also.
The apostles and the New Testament churches called this "the Blessed Hope" and expected the Rapture in their lifetimes. We too can expect the Rapture at any moment. Only God and Christ know the perfect moment for this momentous event.
Hello ewq1938!
This scripture that you posted above, is one of the most misunderstood. And the reason for this, is because when people read it, they do not recognize the change that Paul makes. You bolden one, but not the other and that is why the confusion:
* by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him
* That the day of the Lord is at hand
Though the two events above are closely linked, they are separate events. And in order to understand the context of what Paul is talking about, it is important to understand the difference between the two.
Paul starts off with "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and then in verse 2 switches to 'the Day of the Lord,' also mentioned as 'that day.'
The reason for this, is because there were false teachers in Thessalonica teaching that 'the Day of the Lord' had already come, not our being gathered. The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him is a blessed event, removing the church from the earth before His wrath begins. Where the Day of the Lord is the time of God's wrath, which is the time period which follows after the church is gathered. Everywhere that you read about the Day of the Lord, it is always about God's future wrath.
Therefore, since there were those teaching that the Day of the Lord had already come, the Thessalonians were basically writing to Paul to say "Hey Paul, these people are teaching that the Day of the Lord has already come, so how come we weren't first caught up to meet the Lord in the air according to your teaching?"
In short, it is the Day of the Lord that will not take place until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
What you are doing, is making our being gathered to the Lord and the Day of the Lord as the same event, and they are not.
"Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day (Day of the Lord) will not come, unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. Therefore, Below is the chronological order:
* The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him
* The Day of the Lord (wrath of God) identified by the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness.
The following verses even support this stating that the One who is not holding back the man of lawlessness and the full power of sin, will continue to do so until He is taken out of the way. Then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.
The One who is restraining is the Holy Spirit, when He is taken out of the way, then the church must also be taken out of the way because the Holy Spirit dwells within every believer.
* The One who is restraining is taken out of the way (and the church with Him), then the man of lawlessness will be revealed.
JB, stop counting the Lord's appearing in the air as being a coming and you will not have a problem. When the Lord comes to gather the church, He only descends to the atmosphere, where He first calls up the dead and then the living and then returns to the Father's house. It isn't until the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. So, His second coming to the earth to end the age will only be one time. However prior to that, He will appear in the atmosphere to call us up, where He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, as promised.
In addition and as I keep reminding you, if you have the church being gathered at the same time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which cannot and will not happen, because God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. Your view stomps all over that principle.
Why would you think that God would punish the righteous with the wicked?
This is exactly what you are doing by your belief of the church being gathered after the great tribulation.
To better understand this, you also need to do an in depth study of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This world is not going to be any place to live during that time, even if God were to protect the church. It's going to be the worst time in the history of the world. So bad that, if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one on earth would be left alive. And you think the Lord is going to have His church live in that?
And I would add and I'm sure that you know, the New Jerusalem comes down after the millennial kingdom and great white throne judgment.
How would it be able to give light to the entire world, unless it was above the earth?
Regarding your question, remember, everyone at that time will be in their immortal and glorified bodies. Therefore, we may be able to just think about going there and it will happen. We will not be as we are now, but will have heavenly abilities and immortal and glorified bodies, which are said to be raised in power.
Where did you read that the great tribulation must happen before the church can be gathered?
I'm beginning to wonder about you.
What part of that don't you understand?
It only says the New Jerusalem would forever be lit. Sheesh.
I have some very good news for you. Jesus said...
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Yes indeed. He will the bring together the Tribulation Saints that missed the Rapture from all over the world and unite them with the Rapture saints from heaven. Great verse! I will repost it for the edification of all...
Matthew
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Raptured Saints have been in Heaven for 7 years at this point. All the Tribulation events previously spoken of took place on Earth during those 7 years. Some who where 'left behind' and 'saw the light' survived the Tribulation. The dead from all ages where caught up in the Rapture along with the living saints. Glad to be of help.
Only those that survived the Great Tribulation are raptured. It's impossible for them to "miss" it.
You need the homework. First, not knowing when Christ will come is not the same as he can come at any time. Paul told us the second coming will not happen until the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin happens. The pre-trib doctrine violates that.
Second, those in those verses who do not know when he is coming as those who are unsaved and blinded. The same people represented in the flood story who "knew not" until the flood came. The flood represents the second coming and the start of the wrath of God. Remember:
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
I really feel sorry for all the Saints of ages past.
There is no reason to feel sad for them. They are in a better place than you and I currently are.