"Rightly Dividing" 2 Timothy 2:15

Blade · Feb 20, 2021

As the word says we are not here to please man but God. Some day we all will see if our work gets burned up or not. Context earlier "No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier." Do we see? Well 3 pages in and the talk about "rightly dividing".. is very wise yet some have missed what this is really about.

I love the KJV but if we study we find there are some verses they didn't .. translate the best. For me nothing better then org Hebrew/Greek. Also should be known this verse many debate about "show your self". A song comes to mind by Petra

There's a way that seems right to a man
But it only brings him death
I wanna go the way that leads to life
Till I draw my dying breath

(CHORUS):
Don't wanna be a man pleaser - I wanna be a God pleaser
I just want to have the wisdom to discern the two apart
Don't wanna be a man pleaser - I wanna be a God pleaser
I just want to do the things that please the Father's

JohnDB · Feb 20, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

The translators (Miles Coverdale, Tyndale, and Erasmus) worked mostly from Latin.

There were some manuscripts in Hebrew from the Masoretes. And a few in Arabic that they worked with.

And they didn't have Westcott and Hort to advise them either. Westcott actually was the scholar; Hort was more of the "money and promotions man" but was very much a scholar himself. Westcott was a scholar of ancient Hebrew writing on everything but scripture itself. Which is why his commentary on Hebrews and Jude are of extreme value. His other comments on other books aren't bad either.

The original published Bible (The Great Bible) which was promoted by King Henry VIII (penned by Miles Coverdale copying mostly from Tyndale) to found his new Church of England was never all that popular.

Bloody Mary hated it and suppressed it...But when Elizabeth, the Virgin Queen came along the Geneva Bible became popular. It was a collection of the Latin and other manuscripts as best as they could do.

Two hundreds years later King James authorized and paid for a new, modern translation. (As Pope of the Church of England he felt the need to) But due to the lack of "glosses" and pictures that Geneva Bibles had...it flopped. (Getting rid of the glosses was it's intention) It was only used in the Churches as everyone had their own family bible.
The Geneva Calvinists had done their job well.

There were no Greek Manuscripts at anytime. Only Latin, Hebrew, and Arabic.

It wasn't until the invention of the printing press that standardized Bibles even became a thing. And it was as the first mass produced scriptures became popular that the chapter numbers and verse numbers became introduced and popular too. (Before King James)

The popular KJV today has nothing to do with the other two KJV except for the name. (Which was a marketing ploy by it's authors Oxford and Cambridge universities in England.)
It too was a flop. No one bought it either. It wasn't until a marketing strategy during or after WWI that it became popular. (Because the royalties had run out)

No one used any Greek Manuscripts...ever.

Laish · Feb 21, 2021

JohnDB said:

What are you talking about Erasmus with the exception last two paragraphs of revelations used exclusively the Greek to produce the TR . The only thing that was used from the vulgate was punctuation.
His Greek publication was shunned by the Catholic Church because it differed from the Latin.
Blessings
Bill

Laish · Feb 21, 2021

JohnDB said:

Again what’s going on the Geneva Bible it was the first complete English Bible to depend solely on the Hebrew text for the Old Testament and the New Testament was done using a German translation of the Greek and a Greek script that predates the Latin translation. Which was lifted from Tyndalls New Testament.
Blessings
Bill

throughfaith · Feb 21, 2021

Edify said:

Ok Then the next question this raises is ' how ' ? This is the problem with this translation.

throughfaith · Feb 21, 2021

posthuman said:

If i wanted to take up fencing or sword fighting maybe . Ultimately its arbitrary. Essentially your saying it means ' handle rightly. Or ' in line with walking in the spirit ' . This isn't exactly helpful and is subjective.

mustaphadrink · Feb 21, 2021

posthuman said:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God,

a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

(2 Timothy 2:15, nkjv)

that phrase 'rightly dividing' is a single word, orthotomeó, from ortho ((right or accurate)) and temno ((to cut)). it's only found once in the whole Bible, right here.

the sword we are armed with is the Word of God. a sword is used to cut -- we're not talking about cutting the sword in half; we're talking about wielding it.
a double-edged sword has a cross section like a long thin diamond-shape. when you cut something with it, you want the long axis of the sword's cross-section directly in line with the motion of the blade. when you don't have the sword aligned with the motion of your swing, it does not cut effectively ((i.e. you are not 'rightly dividing' or 'accurately handling' or 'cutting straight'))

in the diagram above the red line represents the direction the sword is travelling when it is swung. the gray box is the thing you are striking/cutting. the black diamond-shape is the a cross-section of the blade.

if you do not have good edge alignment you won't cut straight. part of the energy of the sword isn't being transferred into the cut; it's forcing the blade sideways when it hits the target. if your edge alignment is terrible, like the 3rd image, you may not cut at all - your sword might twist even further off-line, wrenching in your hand, and smack the target with the flat.

think like you're trying to hammer a nail into a board. you want ideally to hit the nail straight with the hammer, not sideways. if you hit the nail sideways ((relative to the axis of the nail)) you just push the nail sideways and either gouge out a channel in the wood with it, or bend the darn thing, rather than driving it straight into the wood.
same concept with a sword. you want to cut straight. you need to accurately handle it. you need to keep the edge of it directly in line with the arc of the swing.

this is ((IMO)) what Paul is talking about when he says 'cut straight with the word of truth' -- he's not talking about putting the Bible in a paper shredder. he's telling Timothy to practice good spiritual swordsmanship, like "a good soldier" ((2 Timothy 2:3-4))

a soldier, especially one whose weapon is a sword, knows that they must cut straight and true. he doesn't cut his spear in half, he thrusts straight with it. he doesn't break his sword into pieces, he wields it skillfully, in a practiced and adept way.

what's the problem with Hymenaeus and Philetus? ((2 Timothy 2:16-18)) -- they are not aligned with the Spirit; they are mishandling the sword of the word of truth. their problem isn't that they didn't divide the Bible in half in the right place, but that they way they used the word was not in line with the truth.

so this verse doesn't mean we should treat the law and the prophets like they were written by a different God. it doesn't mean we should treat Jesus like He preached a different gospel than Paul. it means we need to use the scripture the right way - with understanding and deftness, not like an untrained conscript, but like a well-practiced, adroit & skillful warrior.

I hadt to reply to this post as it is not often someone writes a post where I am the central character. You should see me trying to drive a nail into a piece of wood. Every heard of a hit and miss affair? That's me. When I am cutting wood, I line everything up and measure twice, cut the wood and then find out it is the wrong length. Don't laugh. Well go on, you might as well because any project I embark upon ends up as "how long will it last before it falls apart." I put some shelves up in the laundry once. Three days later they fell down.

When God handed out the practical skills I must have been in the toilet. He made up for it with my son. If there is anything practical he can't do he will just figure it out. He designed all the scaffolding and seating of the local Christmas Carol Concert and then built it. He bought a local 26 seater bus and turned it into a motor home. Did most of the work himself except that which required specialist equipment.

I am so jealous.

John146 · Feb 21, 2021

Edify said:

It is my opinion that they didn't for 2 reasons:
I read somewhere(can't remember) that the translators had trouble with koine Greek, thereby causing inconsistancies.
If I don't come to that conclusion, it would have to be a worse reason, because not only the KJV 1611 had those problems. I recall reading that the supervising authority told the translators to keep the KJV 1611 similar to the Bishop's Bible as much as possible.

You’re bashing the KJV over “I heard, I read somewhere, I recall reading.”

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 21, 2021

posthuman said:

The OP verse is similar to the following verse:

It reminds me of this, anyway...

Philippians 1:10 -

Literal Standard Version
for your proving the things that differ, that you may be pure and offenseless—to [the] Day of Christ

Young's Literal Translation
for your proving the things that differ, that ye may be pure and offenceless -- to a day of Christ,

Tyndale Bible of 1526
that ye myght accepte thinges most excellent that ye myght be p ure and soche as shuld hurte no manes conscience vntyll the daye of Christ

Bishops' Bible of 1568
That ye maye discerne thynges that differ, that ye maye be pure, and without offence, tyll the day of Christe.

Smith's Literal Translation
For you to try [/test/prove] things differing; that ye may be pure and not stumbling to the day of Christ;

Anderson New Testament
in order that you may distinguish things that differ, to the end that you may be pure and blameless till the day of Christ,

Godbey New Testament
in order that you may distinguish those things which differ; that you may be pure and without offence in the day of Christ;

Worsley New Testament
that ye may try [/test/prove] things that differ, that ye may be sincere and without offence until the day of Christ;

[similar to "correctly apportion the word of truth"]

John146 · Feb 21, 2021

JohnDB said:

The translators (Miles Coverdale, Tyndale, and Erasmus) worked mostly from Latin.

There were some manuscripts in Hebrew from the Masoretes. And a few in Arabic that they worked with.

And they didn't have Westcott and Hort to advise them either. Westcott actually was the scholar; Hort was more of the "money and promotions man" but was very much a scholar himself. Westcott was a scholar of ancient Hebrew writing on everything but scripture itself. Which is why his commentary on Hebrews and Jude are of extreme value. His other comments on other books aren't bad either.

The original published Bible (The Great Bible) which was promoted by King Henry VIII (penned by Miles Coverdale copying mostly from Tyndale) to found his new Church of England was never all that popular.

Bloody Mary hated it and suppressed it...But when Elizabeth, the Virgin Queen came along the Geneva Bible became popular. It was a collection of the Latin and other manuscripts as best as they could do.

Two hundreds years later King James authorized and paid for a new, modern translation. (As Pope of the Church of England he felt the need to) But due to the lack of "glosses" and pictures that Geneva Bibles had...it flopped. (Getting rid of the glosses was it's intention) It was only used in the Churches as everyone had their own family bible.
The Geneva Calvinists had done their job well.

There were no Greek Manuscripts at anytime. Only Latin, Hebrew, and Arabic.

It wasn't until the invention of the printing press that standardized Bibles even became a thing. And it was as the first mass produced scriptures became popular that the chapter numbers and verse numbers became introduced and popular too. (Before King James)

The popular KJV today has nothing to do with the other two KJV except for the name. (Which was a marketing ploy by it's authors Oxford and Cambridge universities in England.)
It too was a flop. No one bought it either. It wasn't until a marketing strategy during or after WWI that it became popular. (Because the royalties had run out)

No one used any Greek Manuscripts...ever.

What website did you get this info from?

JohnDB · Feb 21, 2021

Laish said:

Wycliffe had assembled the scriptures and had done some translating of the new testament himself.

And John used Early Latin when he wrote his letters. (Including Revelation) It's very similar to Greek...but it's early Latin.

Word construction was the chief rule change that followed specific guidelines.

It's wasn't until the Oxford/Cambridge Translation that the Alexandrian texts were even used...(if I'm remembering correctly...it's been a minute since I looked at this)

But here...look at this...this will help.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wycliffe's_Bible

JohnDB · Feb 21, 2021

John146 said:

Various and many.

Why?

John146 · Feb 21, 2021

JohnDB said:

When one posts in opposition of the KJV, I like to know their sources. That’s all.

JohnDB · Feb 21, 2021

John146 said:

I'll admit that I'm playing "fast and loose" with some explanations...John Calvin was an American...much later than the Group in Geneva produced the Geneva Bible but their theologies are aligned with John Calvin.

Back during this time there was a massive political disagreement about central authority vx local authority of the Churches. And it's lost on us today...but the Church ruled the World. So it's hard for us to imagine such a world.

Most tried to stay out of scriptures by using the Psalter and Book of prayers.

The world was a very different place in those days. I'm trying to use terms that will be readily understood instead of very accurate explanations.

JohnDB · Feb 21, 2021

John146 said:

Gotcha...

I just replied above.

KJV is only popular because of a marketing campaign by printers needing work and income. There were many more popular translations in the early 1900's but they all required royalties...the Oxford/Cambridge "KJV" didn't. So they printed this one and sold them without paying royalties and had a massive marketing campaign glommed on by other printers needing work and sales.

Industrial revolution and all that jazz was going on. Machines made a lot of stuff...faster than people could buy them. But getting a job to pay for stuff was the really difficult part.

posthuman · Feb 21, 2021

throughfaith said:

in slang terms we wouldn't be far off to translate this as "get the scripture straight" and my premise is that this carries the meaning of using and understanding it correctly & skillfully. i believe that understanding fencing well has carryover by analogy to understanding how to use the scripture well, and this thread is an example of it.

the word is a spiritual sword and the skillful use of a sword involves keeping the blade aligned with the motion of it. so the obvious question is, what is the motion of it? we know some things from scripture:

all scripture is God-breathed
- 2 Timothy 3:16-17
scripture is given by men & women being moved by the Holy Spirit / the Holy Spirit speaking through them
- 2 Peter 1:21, Mark 12:36, Acts 1:16

so the authorship of all the scripture is via the Spirit of God.
also we know,

the Christian, the man or woman of God, the believer, the born-of-God is walking & moving by the Spirit when they are doing the will of God
- John 3:5-7, Romans 8:4-5, Galatians 5:16, 5:25 etc etc
our armament is spiritual and our warfare is spiritual, not earthly
- 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:10-17, Romans 13:12, Romans 6:13
  - note: in Romans 6:13 the word "instruments" is probably better translated "armament" - in Greek it's a military term for a soldier's kit, describing both armor & weapons

so i will propose that "the motion of the sword" is by the Holy Spirit. this is true both when we talk about the Christian using the sword, and when we talk about the sword being used of God on the Christian to chasten, to teach, and to sanctify us as we read it. it's the action of the Holy Spirit - the intent of the sword is the intent of the Spirit of God, and so this is how the strikes and parries that the sword carries out are determined. the Spirit is the one wielding it in our own hearts, and when we pick it up to wield it, we're only using it rightly 'in proper form' when we are using it in the Spirit, following the Spirit, walking in the Spirit.

so, the arc the blade should travel in is the way the Spirit moves. when we handle the scripture we should keep it aligned with the working of the Spirit.
yeah, that's vague on the surface. i know. but that's why this is a thread, not a blog -- so we can discuss it.

however it does say "study" -- and we know some things from scripture about how the Spirit speaks, what the intent of the Spirit is, which in my analogy translate to what are the motions we need to keep the sword-edge aligned with?

The scripture testifies of Christ
- John 5:39, Luke 24:27, 44-45
the Spirit testifies of Christ
- John 15:26, John 16:8-15

so i'm going to say from this, that the fundamental intention of all of scripture is to testify of Christ, His person and His work. whether directly teaching us knowledge of Him, or whether convicting & judging sin, which is antithesis of Him, or whether explaining righteousness, which is His character.

from all this -- i would say that "the motion of the sword" when accurately handled is the movement of the Spirit of God, and that movement is speaking of Christ, glorifying Christ & revealing Christ. that is fundamentally what we need to keep our use of the scripture aligned with, if we are to use it skillfully, as "a workman that needeth not be ashamed"

a great example of this is given to us in Galatians 4:21-31 where Paul 'trains us' in proper spiritual swordsmanship, explaining that the right understanding of Genesis 16, Hagar & Sarai, is as testimony of Christ, speaking about salvation through Him & the covenant of His blood & body. yes, Genesis is absolutely a true account of literal events that actually happened. but the fundamental purpose of this account is to testify of Christ, and when we use it the proper use is to speak about the person and work of Him.

we're supposed to see Jesus on every page of the Bible. that's what the Bible is, a revelation of God to us, and Jesus is the Invisible God made visible ((Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 3:16 etc)) -- He is there in every chapter, and just as He hid Himself in cloud and fire in the wilderness when He led His people out of Egypt, and Hid Himself in flesh when He was born incarnate in the flesh, He has hidden Himself in the scripture from the first to the last page, and in these last days given us of His Spirit Who reveals Him.

the revealing of Him is the motion of our sword; this is what we line up our point with when we thrust, and our edge with when we cut. He is our shield when we parry, the truth of Him our guards and our posture.

((if this makes sense))

John146 · Feb 21, 2021

JohnDB said:

God used the KJV and it’s believers to head the largest world wide revival in history. None other can compare. Satan has used the copycat new versions to bring in the Laodicean age. But let’s get back to the thread at hand.

posthuman · Feb 21, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

The OP verse is similar to the following verse:

It reminds me of this, anyway...

Philippians 1:10 -

Literal Standard Version
for your proving the things that differ, that you may be pure and offenseless—to [the] Day of Christ

Young's Literal Translation
for your proving the things that differ, that ye may be pure and offenceless -- to a day of Christ,

Tyndale Bible of 1526
that ye myght accepte thinges most excellent that ye myght be p ure and soche as shuld hurte no manes conscience vntyll the daye of Christ

Bishops' Bible of 1568
That ye maye discerne thynges that differ, that ye maye be pure, and without offence, tyll the day of Christe.

Smith's Literal Translation
For you to try [/test/prove] things differing; that ye may be pure and not stumbling to the day of Christ;

Anderson New Testament
in order that you may distinguish things that differ, to the end that you may be pure and blameless till the day of Christ,

Godbey New Testament
in order that you may distinguish those things which differ; that you may be pure and without offence in the day of Christ;

Worsley New Testament
that ye may try [/test/prove] things that differ, that ye may be sincere and without offence until the day of Christ;

[similar to "correctly apportion the word of truth"]

beautiful, thank you, i had not connected these

And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment
(Philippians 1:9 nkjv)

John146 · Feb 21, 2021

posthuman said:

Get the scripture straight by rightly dividing.😉

JohnDB · Feb 21, 2021

When trying to figure out which translation is the best...

There are none in the English language.

Donor language and receptor languages need to be equivalent in some fashion...and that's why they dug up Tyndale's bones forty years after King Henry VIII had him killed and burned the bones again.

English misses parts of speech and often has no similar idioms of speech.

Not to mention that Hebrew is a metaphoric language to begin with. Latin and Greek were as well in spots...

And this stuff doesn't go into a language that is limited in parts of grammar and speech.

"Rightly Dividing" 2 Timothy 2:15

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