Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
It seems that your view is that the 3 sets of God's wrath occur simultaneous. Is that correct? If so, then I can see why the "last trump" would also be the 7th trumpet.

However, I view Revelation as more or less sequential. How do you explain all the sets of judgments to be simultaneous

Thanks.

I agree that Christ's return includes resurrection of the dead saints, and rapture (to meet the Lord in the air) of living saints. However, as I read through Rev 19-20, it seems clear that Jesus returns to end the Trib at the battle of Armageddon and then sets up His millennial kingdom, during which Satan is bound, and then released "for a short time" to again deceive the nations. Then Jesus ends his final rebellion at the battle of Gog and Magog. And THEN He judges at the GWT. What follows the GWT judgment is the new heavens and new earth (ch 21).

I am in agreement with that except I think the resurrection and rapture occur in the twinkling of an eye. When Christ returns the battle of Armageddon won't be a battle, more like God's enemies will be dealt with instantly.

Matthew 24 says the coming of the Son of Man will be like the days of Noah. The world was overrun with wickedness and the flood wiped them out. God only allows wickedness to reach a point before it's time to reset.

Same thing happened with the tower of Babel where people were too coordinated in their ability to speak the same language and make wickedness highly efficient. Same thing happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

The great tribulation will be the state of the world when "the restrainer is out of the way" allowing wickedness to flourish. "No one will survive those days, not even the elect, unless those days were shortened." The thing that will shorten those days is the return of Christ who is God.

In my estimation it'll be swift.

I agree with everything you said except for possibly the exact timing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I would be happy to discuss any verse provided that is given as evidence that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured saints back up to heaven.

That is the crux of pre-trib rapture doctrine. Without that evidence, it's just all conjecture and construct.

Okay, so (I can't recall if I phrased it just like this in those 3 posts, but...) we could possibly discuss my point about "THE Departure *FIRST*" (2Th2:3) before the day of the Lord (earthly time-period) can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME (i.e. the 7 yrs)... My point would be (and where I believe you are missing what Paul is conveying in 2Th2:1-3), "THE Departure *FIRST*" means... TO WHERE? (well, obviously "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" [v.1] which Paul had earlier stated would be "to the MEETING of the Lord IN THE AIR")...



... and which "DOTL" time period Paul acknowledged that that Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that it will "ARRIVE"... *like* the INITIAL "birth PANG" of a woman in labor (just like Jesus had spoken of in the PLURAL [same word] in His phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS" which clearly many more follow on from THE BEGINNING of those, before His "RETURN" to the earth will take place, Matt24:29-31,33-51/Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" / and Matt25:31-34)


Oh... I fear I've covered too much ground in this post...

...just wanting to possibly discuss the SEQUENCE ISSUES in 2Th2:1-3, because by taking one or two "mis-steps" just here, throws off the entire message Paul is actually conveying in this text. I disagree with *your* color-coding there... I disagree that v.1's contents are speaking of distinct items (though v.1 and v.2 ARE)...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 Thess 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Do you notice what is being contrasted? Wrath vs salvation. So this verse is about the ultimate end of the unbeliever; the lake of fire.

Disagree.

Paul, in these two Thessalonians epistles, is covering the Subject of an "eschatological salvation"... I'm sure you're aware of the differing kinds of "saved / salvation" being referred to in various contexts of Scripture, right?

This context is an "eschatological salvation" ("...the One delivering us out-from the wrath coming"--note: this does not specify WHOSE "wrath" in particular [though I personally believe it's God's wrath using even the wrath of others during that future, specific, limited time-period being referenced in this CONTEXT of his two epistles--in the SAME WAY that Matt22:7's "when the king heard it HE WAS WROTH... sent forth his armies... burned up their city," see... or like in Hab1:6,12 "[ordained the Chaldeans] FOR judgment [/to execute JUDGMENT]... [established the Chaldeans] FOR CORRECTION"])

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am in agreement with that except I think the resurrection and rapture occur in the twinkling of an eye. When Christ returns the battle of Armageddon won't be a battle, more like God's enemies will be dealt with instantly.

I agree that resurrection and rapture are the same time. Armageddon is described as a battle, but of course Jesus ends it very quickly, so there's not a battle at all.

Matthew 24 says the coming of the Son of Man will be like the days of Noah. The world was overrun with wickedness and the flood wiped them out. God only allows wickedness to reach a point before it's time to reset.

Agreed.

Same thing happened with the tower of Babel where people were too coordinated in their ability to speak the same language and make wickedness highly efficient. Same thing happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Correct.

The great tribulation will be the state of the world when "the restrainer is out of the way" allowing wickedness to flourish. "No one will survive those days, not even the elect, unless those days were shortened." The thing that will shorten those days is the return of Christ who is God.

What is your view of who the "restrainer" is?

In my estimation it'll be swift.

No doubt.

I agree with everything you said except for possibly the exact timing.

One thing you didn't address what whether Revelation was written sequentially or simultaneously. iow, are the 3 sets of 7 judgments sequential, or do they all occur at the same time?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Please, let's not confuse "the time of trouble" aka what you Jesuit Futurists call "the tribulation" which is the wrath of men against Christians....with the 7 Last Plagues which is "the wrath of God" against the wicked.

Of those "7 Vials" (with the "7 LAST plagues"... aside from the "ALL [/every] plagues, as often as they will" of the "2W's [days]" PRIOR to this point in the chronology[!]-->[which theirs is ending at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time-slot!]) it is stated, "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED"... NOT "is STARTED"

... the same exact word ("completed") is found in one other verse:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the trumpet, then the mystery of God would be completed, as proclaimed to His servants, the prophets" ... and I don't see anyone suggesting that "the mystery of God" (a phrase only used elsewhere in Col2:2-3 "...which is Christ Himself") "is STARTED AND COMPLETED" "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound"... right?? That would be just silly... I would think.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Of course Paul is speaking of "sleep" as a metaphor for not being conscious of what's happening around them while they're living their lives.

That's what I just said.

But it is placed in the CONTEXT of (what I just said in another post) Paul covering the Subject of an "eschatological salvation" in these two Thessalonians epistles.

[i.e. partly covering the Subject of the "ARRIVAL" of the "DOTL" earthly time-period of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME, followed by BLESSINGs also unfolding upon the earth over the course of MUCH TIME (i.e. the MK age); that is how the phrase "the Day of the Lord" has always been defined / used throughout the OT--rather than the "made up" definition that the "Amill-teachings" have come up with apart from Scripture itself...]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay, so (I can't recall if I phrased it just like this in those 3 posts, but...) we could possibly discuss my point about "THE Departure *FIRST*" (2Th2:3) before the day of the Lord (earthly time-period) can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME (i.e. the 7 yrs)... My point would be (and where I believe you are missing what Paul is conveying in 2Th2:1-3), "THE Departure *FIRST*" means... TO WHERE? (well, obviously "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" [v.1] which Paul had earlier stated would be "to the MEETING of the Lord IN THE AIR")...

Let's start with the context for v.3.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

To begin, I see v.1 as the order of the Second Advent (coming of our Lord) and the resurrection/rapture (gathering).

v.3 I don't see "the departure" in this verse. So I'm not following anything in your paragraph. What I do read in v.3 is that the phrase 'that day', which refers to the Second Advent of Christ, won't happen until the "rebellion occurs" and the "man of lawlessness is revealed". Maybe you understand "that day" to mean a pre-trib event, but v.1 doesn't allow me to believe that.

... and which "DOTL" time period Paul acknowledged that that Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that it will "ARRIVE"... *like* the INITIAL "birth PANG" of a woman in labor (just like Jesus had spoken of in the PLURAL [same word] in His phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS" which clearly many more follow on from THE BEGINNING of those, before His "RETURN" to the earth will take place, Matt24:29-31,33-51/Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" / and Matt25:31-34)

Your explanations seem rather tortuous to me. Hard to follow. And adding all those verses don't help me.

What I am interested in is a verse that indicates that Jesus returns to heaven after the resurrection/rapture of saints. And that is something I've not seen yet.

If Jesus will return to heaven with all the saints, it seems quite reasonable that at least one author would make that clear.

Oh... I fear I've covered too much ground in this post...

...just wanting to possibly discuss the SEQUENCE ISSUES in 2Th2:1-3, because by taking one or two "mis-steps" just here, throws off the entire message Paul is actually conveying in this text. I disagree with *your* color-coding there... I disagree that v.1's contents are speaking of distinct items (though v.1 and v.2 ARE)...

Yes, I agee that any "mis-steps" would throw off the entire message that Paul was conveying.

I am surprised that you don't think that v.1 speaks of distinct items. The "gathering" certainly IS a distinct item or event. And it is clear in v.1 that it follows the "coming of our Lord". That also appears to be a very distinct event.

So your comment is perplexing to me. It seems extremely clear that v.1 forms the order of the Second Coming and the rapture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
1 Thess 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Do you notice what is being contrasted? Wrath vs salvation. So this verse is about the ultimate end of

Disagree.

Wow. Really? How can it not be?

Paul, in these two Thessalonians epistles, is covering the Subject of an "eschatological salvation"... I'm sure you're aware of the differing kinds of "saved / salvation" being referred to in various contexts of Scripture, right?

Yes, I sure am. I expect you are referring to the 3 tenses of salvation. So it seems your view is that Paul was speaking of the present tense of salvation. Is that correct.

I do agree that disobedient believers will face God's discipline (also described in Scripture as wrath).

This context is an "eschatological salvation" ("...the One delivering us out-from the wrath coming"--note: this does not specify WHOSE "wrath" in particular [though I personally believe it's God's wrath using even the wrath of others during that future, specific, limited time-period being referenced in this CONTEXT of his two epistles--in the SAME WAY that Matt22:7's "when the king heard it HE WAS WROTH... sent forth his armies... burned up their city," see... or like in Hab1:6,12 "[ordained the Chaldeans] FOR judgment [/to execute JUDGMENT]... [established the Chaldeans] FOR CORRECTION"])[/QUOTE]
With respect, this seems to be to be an attempt to defend the view that all believers will be removed before the tribulation.

I think Paul was admonishing believers to holy living (waking up from slumber) and v.10 summarizes WHY we should live holy lives; because He saves us from ultimate wrath.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yeah, I'm just stupid enough to think Revelation - one of the two most symbolic books in the entire Bible - should be interpreted literally Of course the Two Witnesses are symbolic, and if you're interested in laying Jesuit eschatological nonsense and just let the Bible interpret itself, then read what Zechariah 4 has to say about John's symbolism.

I've covered at length, "the four living creatures" (who say "COME" re: the first FOUR SEALS) are DESCRIBED in the SAME WAY that the "four-directional plotment of Israel" was described (their "banners") in the OT... so that (as I've said) this pertains to that, during that future "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (it ain't all about us--it is the believing remnant of Israel who will be the HEROES OF THE DAY during that time period / the trib yrs... let's not usurp their rewards unto ourselves! [by misapplication/misappropriation of the pertinent Scriptures ])

JESUS DIDN'T SAY THEY WOULD "NOT CARE" LIKE YOUR "LEFT BEHIND" PEOPLE...HE SAID THEY WOULD "KNOW NOT".

The parallel passage found in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 does not provide only one option (as you suggest): "not knowing". No.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What I do read in v.3 is that the phrase 'that day', which refers to the Second Advent of Christ

No.

It doesn't.

V.3's "that day" speaks of the time period the Thessalonians were being exhorted by Paul NOT TO BELIEVE any false conveyors trying to convince them that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"... (i.e. the IMMEDIATELY-PRECEDING verse [grammatically-speaking], the one that covered the Subject of some particular "DAY" [i.e. time-period])...

...which would be a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for them to [wrongly] be convinced was true, BECAUSE OF their present and ONGOING, very NEGATIVE experiences they were at that time ENDURING (per 2Th1:4 "persecutions and tribulations ye endure").

They were under no such delusion that Christ Himself "IS PRESENT," nor would this cause any measure of "freaking out"... however, the other would. I think you're tending to project a modern-type scenario [back] into their thoughts, rather than observing what it is the TEXT IS SAYING was on their minds... (the Subject of v.2 was on their minds... or at least AT RISK of being so; V.1's Subject [its ONE Subject] was NOT on their minds... Paul was BRINGING it TO their minds, in view of this need for writing a LETTER to them [v.2... v.15])

Besides the fact that Paul had already acknowledged in 1Th5:1-3, that they "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL, which matches perfectly with what Jesus had said would be at the START of that time period (not at the END of what Subject Jesus was covering)... and which we can now see that "the beginning of birth PANGS" are parallel the SEALS of Rev6, and Rev1:1 said that those FUTURE ASPECTS of the Book [1:1 / 1:19c /4:1] are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase in both Lk18:8 and Rom16:20), speaking of the future, specific, LIMITED time-period (we call the TRIB / 7 yrs)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, I sure am. I expect you are referring to the 3 tenses of salvation. So it seems your view is that Paul was speaking of the present tense of salvation. Is that correct.

I had just said, "Paul, in these two Thessalonians epistles, is covering the Subject of an "eschatological salvation"... so surely you jest (or you are in need of your glasses being majorly adjusted ).

What happens at the time of "our Rapture" is the "change [i.e. glorified bodies... "like unto His glorious body"]"... thus "glorification" tense of "salvation" (not "present tense").

 

[Phoneman-777]

There's your mistake.

"... lying around all over the place..." .

No.

It will be just as much "tangible evidence" ('lying around') as Jesus' FIRST ascension

Yes, the first century Earth looked EXACTLY like a future turned upside down Earth with empty clothes and shoes across the nations where Christians once stood, and crashed vehicles everywhere and global panic and hysteria and chaos and 24 hour news channels covering it all 🙄

 

[Phoneman-777]

There is every reason to think that the wise, the believers post rapture will have a VERY good idea of what is going on. They will have the Bible, the preaching of the 144,000, proclamations of angels flying in heaven.....Oh yes they will know what's happening. They will understand that this is the seven year tribulation. After all they are believers. Elect by God...so they do know the truth.

In fact they will be so resolute in their belief, that they will refuse the mark of the beast and suffer martyrdom.

BTW.....your analogy is faulty.

So far you are batting zero buddy. Seriously you really are 100% wrong 100% of the time it's amazing.

Jesuit Futurists claim the pre-trib rapture happens when Jesus comes as a “thief in the night”.

1 Peter 3:10 says when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, there won’t be 7 more minutes of anything, let alone 7 years.

See what I did there? I dismantled the entire Jesuit Futurist idea. No need to speculate about what’s going to happen after Jesus comes as a thief.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Jesuit Futurists claim the pre-trib rapture happens when Jesus comes as a “thief in the night”.

Actually in this matter the Jesuit Futurists as well as evangelical and fundamentalists futurists are all on the right track. You are the one who is resisting the truth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, the first century Earth looked EXACTLY like a future turned upside down Earth with empty clothes and shoes across the nations where Christians once stood,

I already said... I do NOT think it will take place AS DESCRIBED in the "Left Behind" series of book and movies as they've depicted it...

and crashed vehicles everywhere

...and no "crashed vehicles everywhere"...

and global panic and hysteria and chaos and 24 hour news channels covering it all 🙄

... at the same time that the "religious lost' will also be spreading their delusional FALSEHOODS that "what just happened" (the removal of lotsa ppl!) was "what Matthew 13 HAS SAID" (not!)... that the "TARES" have been "GATHERED OUT" (but that will be a total mis-application of Scripture and timing / chronology! / i.e LIE!)
Paul tells of the TWO CONTRASTING "beliefs" ppl will come to, following "our Rapture" (some will believe THE TRUTH; others will embrace THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI instead!)

 

[Phoneman-777]

"... crashed planes, derailed trains, cars careening out of control, and clothes and jewelry and prosthetic limbs, etc., lying all over the planet on the spot where Christians disappeared in ..."

I'll say it once again. ^ THAT ^ is not what it will look like at the time of "our Rapture".


It will be like when Jesus' FIRST ascension took place ON HIS RESURRECTION DAY (John 20:17), *not* like His "40-day" LATER VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1.




I.e. NO ONE SAW it take place, nor any tangible "evidence" of it ('lying around')... ALL THEY HAD was MM's TESTIMONY/WORD ("what HE HAD SAID for her to 'SAY UNTO them'")

[... just as in Noah's day ]




... I think you've succumbed to a "fictional" version of it...

No global chaos when the “secret rapture” happens? Are you going to be passing out the same Koolaid you’re drinking now? 😉

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesuit Futurists claim the pre-trib rapture happens when Jesus comes as a “thief in the night”.

It is NOT "Jesus Himself" who comes as a "thief IN THE NIGHT" but "the DAY OF THE LORD [earthly time-period of JUDGMENTs arriving to unfold upon the earth over SOME TIME]".

Jesus Himself says, "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF. [period; No "IN THE NIGHT" is added to this phrase when referencing HE HIMSELF (His "RETURN" to the earth later at the Armageddon time-slot, Rev16:15-16)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No global chaos when the “secret rapture” happens? Are you going to be passing out the same Koolaid you’re drinking now? 😉

I said, it will be like the day of Jesus' FIRST ascension (ON His Resurrection Day--not His "40-day" LATER VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1 [which will be like His "RETURN" to the earth, as they told them in that Acts 1 text--note the parallel texts speaking of THAT instance... "when EVERY EYE [existing on the earth, at the time] shall SEE Him..."])...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And ch 4 says nothing about any U-turn back to heaven.

Well, for one thing, I've stated that 1Th4 is not (as a stand-alone passage) supplying the "timing" of the event... only insofar as it states "so [/thus] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with] the Lord"

[similar to what Gen2:22 said and Eph5:27 "PRESENT to Himself" (also 2Cor11:2 "PRESENT")]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No global chaos when the “secret rapture” happens? Are you going to be passing out the same Koolaid you’re drinking now? 😉

Recall, I've said that immediately following "our Rapture" will be the FIRST SEAL opened (the rider on the white horse WITH A BOW--where "bow"" often represents "DECEPTION")... and I don't know if you might believe as I do, that Daniel 8:25's "and by peace shall destroy many" is either a future event/person, OR perhaps even just [more likely] a TYPE of that future event/person, but I see this as parallel to the "man of sin BE REVEALED" at the START of the [7]Trib yrs, paralleling the FIRST LISTED item Jesus spoke of in "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS"=Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 - G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"... I think most ppl think "total negativity" when they picture this, rather than "total decep-tivity" ["white" horse, and all that John-Wayne-lookin' stuff... not the red-suited-guy-with-the-pitchfork-and-horns-lookin' stuff (with the angry sneer kind of thing goin' on), see. No.]

It's not till SEAL TWO that "peace is taken from the earth"

(I believe that's ^ something like nearly a year [more or less] later... something like that... I forget the precise details of my study on the chronology of it, but something like that, if I recall [I made a few posts recently on the parallels to this...])