Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Lucy-Pevensie , Did you happen to see my Post #1344 of this thread... the one that starts out like this:

Did you see my posts covering:
--Lk21:23,20 "and WRATH upon this people" re: the 70ad events [-section];

--Matt22:7 [re: the events surrounding 70ad] "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [<--see also what Jesus said on the very day that the "69 Weeks [total]" were concluded: Luke 19:41-44, parallel to these passages of Matt22:7 and Lk21:23,20]

https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4492434


Do you believe there was "wrath" by Him in those events surrounding 70ad, as these passages seem to say...?



[I don't recall anyone responding to this post... so perhaps no one saw it??]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

@Lucy-Pevensie , Did you happen to see my Post #1344 of this thread... the one that starts out like this:



https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4492434


Do you believe there was "wrath" by Him in those events surrounding 70ad, as these passages seem to say...?



[I don't recall anyone responding to this post... so perhaps no one saw it??]

No, I'm afraid I don't normally read your posts because they usually look like gibberish to me.
I skim past.


Notice how what Paul addresses to "the Church which is His body," is DISTINCT from what Jesus addressed via His Olivet Discourse (to the "proleptic 'you'" of that Olivet Discourse passage):


Notice in the following passage I'm always pointing out... see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words]

1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 -

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,

but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.

7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.

8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,

9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 the One having died for us,

so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen]

OR whether we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen],

we may live together with [G4862 - syn - 'unioned-with'/'identified-with'] Him.

11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.



...note that THIS [Grk word for] "sleep" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (speaking of "the dead in Christ" of v.16).

1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep" in death, like the previous chpt is.

 

[Phoneman-777]

To be clear, I am not suggesting that everyone on the earth (following "our Rapture") WILL know the exact timing of His return to the earth [<--Lk17:27,29 "destroyed them ALL"], BECAUSE many will disregard His Word (the point being made); Only "the WISE *will understand*"... but "NONE of the wicked shall understand" (recall, it will be during a time of GREAT DECEPTION!; and 2Th2:10-12 will also then be in play "HE SHALL SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that...")

I'm saying it is POSSIBLE for ppl to then "know" [for the info is now available IN HIS WRITTEN WORD] when He's expected to return to the earth [then/during that time-period], but NOT EVERYONE will HEED HIS WORD [and/or those bringing it in/during/within those trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture")--ex. Matt24:14 / 26:13, and other passages I've listed re: the trib yrs with the particular "msg" / "INVITATION" going forth during that future time period] ...(just as in Noah's day).

So, let me get this straight:

1. The entire world is going to have a front row seat at the "secret rapture".
2. Everyone "left behind" gets a "second chance" by a "fair and just" God Who never gave that to anyone else
3. Those who refuse this "second chance" will fall victim to a "7 Year Trib Amnesia" pandemic.
4. They'll forget all about the "secret rapture" even though there's crashed planes/trains/cars all over
5. Along with "7 Year Trib Amnesia", they'll also develop "Anal Glaucoma" which will blind them to how much trouble their butts will be in 7 years after the "secret rapture"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No, I'm afraid I don't normally read your posts because they usually look like gibberish to me.
I skim past.

I have no clue how you got ahold of a post of mine that I was not addressing with you... I was asking you whether or not you believe that Luke 21:23,20 and Matthew 22:7 and Luke 19:41-44 are speaking of the 70ad events, and its having "wrath" (by Him)... or whether you think it was simply the "wrath of man" (despite what Matthew 22:7 says).

Your thoughts?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

It seems the fathers were as conflicted as we are today.
What I know for sure is that Jesus is going to return.

 

[Absolutely]

Absolutely correct. The only way you are going to fully understand the Church/Rapture is to understand the marriage context.

Any other view is quite frankly abhorrent.

I know in my experience the bride/groom dynamic enhanced my end times understanding exponentially. Greatly magnified the revelation of end times.
I see 3 "apexes"
The gentile bride gathered

The trib and gathering of the Jews

David's throne re established and Jesus sitting in it

( The gt is indirect in God's plan)

Postribs are centered and preoccupied in the indirect dimension.

Therefore things do not even have to harmonize since the revelation of heaven and the business of heaven is off the table via error by emphasis and omission.

Their entire debate is one dimensional and textbook.....their entire deal!!!!!

IOW preoccupied with what the devil is about to do.

That is WHY they reject verses and omit.
Their prism is ominous and dreadful.
Any hope or goodness of the gathering up of the bride,the beauty and such winning spirit of the blessed hope is not in their walk.

So they see us as heretics.

The debate is one sided. Because I should enter a verse to the mix and see either another view or a factual rebuttle.

Instead ....we have utter baseless rejection or deflection/ omission.

But rev 14 combined with other verses is a game changer.( One such game changer )

 

[Runningman]

If the tribulation was the wrath of God it would have been titled- The Great Wrath.

Yeah. And if the Tribulation was was wrath of God then it wouldn't really make sense either because that would mean God is going to attempt to stamp out the church, persecute the world, martyr Christians, and try to force them to take a mark of the beast which would damn them to hell. All totally false and umbiblical doctrine.

The great tribulation and the woes there of of from the devil. Plain and simple.

The wrath of God comes after the GT.

 

[Phoneman-777]

No, I'm afraid I don't normally read your posts because they usually look like gibberish to me.
I skim past.


Notice how what Paul addresses to "the Church which is His body," is DISTINCT from what Jesus addressed via His Olivet Discourse (to the "proleptic 'you'" of that Olivet Discourse passage):


Notice in the following passage I'm always pointing out... see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words]

1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 -

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,

but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.

7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.

8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,

9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 the One having died for us,

so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen]

OR whether we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen],

we may live together with [G4862 - syn - 'unioned-with'/'identified-with'] Him.

11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.



...note that THIS [Grk word for] "sleep" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (speaking of "the dead in Christ" of v.16).

1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep" in death, like the previous chpt is.

That's so clear is should be beyond debate. Of course Paul is speaking of "sleep" as a metaphor for not being conscious of what's happening around them while they're living their lives. How can so much error be gathered together in one profile?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I have no clue how you got ahold of a post of mine that I was not addressing with you... I was asking you whether or not you believe that Luke 21:23,20 and Matthew 22:7 and Luke 19:41-44 are speaking of the 70ad events, and its having "wrath" (by Him)... or whether you think it was simply the "wrath of man" (despite what Matthew 22:7 says).

Your thoughts?

I'm not sure you understand how prophecy works if you think they must be strictly divided.

 

[Runningman]

It seems the fathers were as conflicted as we are today.
What I know for sure is that Jesus is going to return.

Honestly, the fathers weren't divided over the rapture until the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine came out in the late 1800s and it's known as dispensational premillennialism.

The doctrine about post-tribulation rapture is the earliest view of the end times and it came out at the end of the first century. It's known as historical premillennialism.

There is also amillenialism and postmillennialism, but aren't as popular among protestant Christians as far as I've seen.

Yes Jesus is coming back! Watch and wait on the Lord.

 

[cv5]

If the tribulation was the wrath of God it would have been titled- The Great Wrath.

I have no problem with that. 12 times it is clearly stated and quite unequivocally that this time is the Wrath of God. The Great Wrath. There never was anything like it and there never will be again.

If we can't agree that it is the Wrath of God then we all should pack up our books and go home. I mean that's what it says........read it for yourself. I have heard commentators on this thread deny it over and over again it's quite shocking really.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=wrath&t=NKJV#s=s_primary_66_1

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The relationship is FIRST consummated (the chuppah) in the privacy of heaven. The wedding feast occurs afterwards.

All of this matches the Biblical Rapture phenomenon perfectly.

https://bible.ca/marriage/ancient-j...nd-marriage-customs-ceremony-in-the-bible.htm

All the elements of the betrothal & wedding contract are revealed in prophecy on earth and they will be completed on earth just as the prophetic pattern indicates.

 

[Absolutely]

Nope.
Verse one: rapture.
Verse two: second coming

The topic at hand is: why are Thessalonians an a state of panic, thinking that they are NOW going through THE Tribulation (and were left behind!), despite Paul's earlier teaching that they would be taken OUT OF the Day of the Lord?

Paul reconfirms his earlier teaching (pre-trib Rapture) and repudiates the false letter that was circulating.

Otherwise the Thessalonians would be REJOICING at going through the Tribulation, thinking that Jesus will soon be returning.

What?????
Man that is boggus.
You actually believe the bride that is not tied to a tree and beaten bloody is worthy of Jesus gathering up????

I mean could you please re read mat 25 and see the specticle of justice where the 5 wise virgins are beaten senseless while they wait for Jesus???
And his approval of the false groom he sent to beat them????
And then you can't see the billions of white horses where the groom comes WITH his virgins ???? To pick up his virgins barely able to function after the beating of the false groom he sent?????

Man you really do not understand how we need the gt in order to be worthy do you?

You should read margaret mcdonald's dream.
She said the bride must go through the gt to become worthy.

See???? See ????????????

That pretrib mess has us soooooo unworthy!!!!!

That is just a no brainier how that bride/ groom pretrib rapture is unscriptural.
Just look at the great biblical case I laid out.


Oh wait

I just re read my Bible.

I now am pretrib rapture position.

 

[Absolutely]

Have you forgotten we are talking about God?

Why do you assume he is already married before he goes to battle? His return is processional according to the prophets.
The wedding is on the earth after his return. His bride is ready. Ready doesn't mean already married.


Psalm 45
Celebration of a Royal Wedding
For the music director; according to The Lilies. Of the sons of Korah.
A maskil. A song of love.

My heart is moved with a good word;
I recite my compositions to the king.
My tongue is the pen of a skilled scribe.
2 You are the most handsome of the sons of humankind;
grace is poured out on your lips;
therefore God has blessed you forever.
3 Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,
in your splendor and your majesty.
4 And in your majesty ride victoriously,
because of truth and humility and righteousness.
And let your right hand teach you awesome deeds.
5 Your arrows are sharp;
peoples fall under you
in the midst of the king’s enemies.
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
A scepter of uprightness is
the scepter of your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
from among your companions with festive oil.

Ok
Make that case
The marriage in heaven has about 4 or 5 witnesses against your assertion.

Do a study on it.

The bride/ groom component is no where in postrib rapture studies

 

[Runningman]

I have no problem with that. 12 times it is clearly stated and quite unequivocally that this time is the Wrath of God. The Great Wrath. There never was anything like it and there never will be again.

If we can't agree that it is the Wrath of God then we all should pack up our books and go home. I mean that's what it says........read it for yourself. I have heard commentators on this thread deny it over and over again it's quite shocking really.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=wrath&t=NKJV#s=s_primary_66_1

Wrong. That's the great flood and according to Genesis it says it was God's grief not wrath.

The verse in Revelation you quoted is entirely out of context. Reread the chapter about the great flood in Genesis and Matthew 24 and tell me where it says it is God's wrath because I don't see it.

 

[Absolutely]

Ok
Make that case
The marriage in heaven has about 4 or 5 witnesses against your assertion.

Do a study on it.

The bride/ groom component is no where in postrib rapture studies

.....and when postribs do engage me in that dimension it is so put down it is remarkable.

See, they left it out.
They left out the greatest event that is next in God's heart. The gathering of the bride.
It is riveting...that dimension.

It is the heart of heaven

....

And postribs left it out

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, let me get this straight:

1. The entire world is going to have a front row seat at the "secret rapture".

Let's just cover this first point. = )

[as I said in the other posts where we were covering this]... only as much of a "front row seat" as there was on the day of Jesus' FIRST ascension (ON His Resurrection Day, Lev23:10-12 / 1Cor15:20), a time when no one witnessed VISIBLY His "[active] I ASCEND" that very day (John 20:17).

It was only TOLD to MM, and He told her to "SAY UNTO [My brethren]..." about it.

[later that same day, late in the evening, "He UPBRAIDED them [the 11] for their UNBELIEF and HARDNESS OF HEART *because* they DID NOT BELIEVE those who had seen Him after He had risen." [MM included!] - Mark 16:14 ("He appeared FIRST to MM" Mark 16:9... and He had TOLD her what to "SAY UNTO them" John 20:17)]

Perhaps there will be a few ppl who see them/us "VANISH"... I've already pointed out that the manner in which "our Rapture" will take place will be A PRIMARY IMPETUS that helps Israel turn in faith to their Messiah (Jesus Christ), but this will be during a time period of great deception and grave persecution (Matt24:4-8)... few would "believe" them about it even if it is told them...

...however, (what I just said about "Paul's 2nd Letter" [Thess])... this parallels precisely what is said about "Elijah's letter" that "came to" so-and-so (2Chron21:12)... which ppl like atheists today point out that passage as being "inconsistent" ("not true," according to them) because the letter from him came to so-and-so long after Elijah would have been GONE in the whirlwind (as though this make the Bible *obviously* UNTRUE, according to them... but they are mis-reading the passage... It does NOT state that "Elijah then sat down and penned so-and-so a letter"... NO. The text states, "a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying..." [meaning an entirely different thing! and ENTIRELY POSSIBLE *after he WAS GONE,* [b/c delivered via SOMEONE ELSE!] see ])

1. Everyone "left behind" gets a "second chance" by a "fair and just" God Who never gave that to anyone else
2. Those who refuse this "second chance" will fall victim to a "7 Year Trib Amnesia" pandemic.
3. They'll forget all about the "secret rapture" even though there's crashed planes/trains/cars all over
4. Along with "7 Year Trib Amnesia", they'll also develop "Anal Glaucoma" which will blind them to how much trouble their butts will be in 7 years after the "secret rapture"

a little bit at a time... chew carefully... = D

 

[Absolutely]

Wrong. That's the great flood and according to Genesis it says it was God's grief not wrath.

The verse Revelation you quoted is entirely out of context. Reread the chapter about the great flood I'm Genesis and Matthew 24 and tell me where it says it is God's wrath because I don't see it.

Yeah
It was just a speed bump.
Very minor and little damage.

I think even the gt is just a minor hiccup.
Not much damage or death.
No worries we will make it to the end!!!

Wink wink

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

It seems the fathers were as conflicted as we are today.
What I know for sure is that Jesus is going to return.

I don't think they were. Not on the pretrib issue. It's a recent invention.
If it wasn't for the introduction of pretrib theory in the 19th century we would not have heard the terms -mid/post/pre-wrath either.
We would have been studying the 2nd coming of Our Lord and the resurrection. Pretrib has brought a lot of undue confusion into the church.

 

[Absolutely]

All the elements of the betrothal & wedding contract are revealed in prophecy on earth and they will be completed on earth just as the prophetic pattern indicates.

The last supper had the betrothal components
Almost to a "t".
The last supper was indeed the betrothal.

Most pastors do not know that.

Once the bride / groom study gets ahold of you....end times turns on a dime.

It never looks the same.