Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[cv5]

Verse 2 is "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" (not His Second Coming to the earth, but the very negative [aspects of that] time period's ARRIVAL which PRECEDES His Second Coming to the earth--not that the "false conveyors" grasped "timing issues" lol).


In 1Th5:2-3, Paul acknowledges that they "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manor of its ARRIVAL (DOTL), which he says is like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman in labor... which is the EXACT WORD Jesus used (in the "plural") when He spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"... (which are the EQUIVALENT of the SEALS in Rev6)... so Seal #1 (as we now know it) !

This brings me to the conclusion that the ARRIVAL of those (thus the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time-period) IS the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR]" which JESUS SPOKE OF, which is: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" (i.e. SEAL #1 at the START of the trib... aka, what Paul spells out in 2Th2 re: the "whose COMING" [of the "man of sin"]<--"that day" [v.3] will NOT be present [without him and his "parousia / presence" ]--Same point in time as Dan9:27a [26b] "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]")

Sorry my mistake. I actually meant the 70th week of Daniel aka DOTL. Sometimes I use second coming for the entire seven year period. I will try to be more perfunctory in the future.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It still says revealed.

And you have no clue.

Try real hard to imagine when he is revealed.

It doesn't take an imagination. It takes only a certain level of reading skills.

Hint....at the first.

Revealed at the first along with the rapture.

You really don't get it. He is revealed BEFORE the "that day" and the "gathering". Yet, your supposed pre-trib U-turn thing happens BEFORE the Trib.

I know you need him revealed at the last.

Wrong again. The Beast (antichrist) takes rulership of earth at the midpoint of the trib.

Which is understandable.

It seems there isn't much that you understand.

Some did not know trump was president till his last few days.

Why do you insert such irrelevant comments?

 

[cv5]

This is weird... someone help me out...

I copied and pasted this Greek word [under discussion] (from Rev19:7, at a site where the heading says "Original Text"), it looks like this (which I then C&P into the Search bar on my computer):

" ητοιμασεν " [<--in Rev19:7 -- the word we're presently talking about]

... and this was pretty much at the top of the list of what popped up on the Search:

1 Corinthians 2:9 - Verse-by-Verse Bible Commentary - StudyLight.org

"PREPARED" (<--just like I had pointed out in a previous post)

["what God has prepared" - 1 Corinthians 2:9 Interlinear: but, according as it hath been written, 'What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him -- ' (biblehub.com) -- or "prepared" https://biblehub.com/greek/e_toimasen_2090.htm ]



Here's the part I am not really understanding (on that page), coz I'm not a Greek scholar...

... the part under the "Robertson's" heading... it says (of this exact word in 1Cor2:9, which recall, I just PASTED directly from that original source saying "Original Text" for Rev19:7, he says of the same word in 1Cor2:9):

"Prepared (ητοιμασεν — hētoimasen). First aorist active indicative of ετοιμαζω — hetoimazō "


... my question being, does the underlined ^ hold true for Rev19:7, or no?? ( I dunno! I'm dense.)


Help. = )

My dear friend you are the most scholarly Greek scholar on this thread by a longshot.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You made " revealed" into: "at the end of the gt"

And

"In heaven" Into:
"The mil"
Hmmmmm....interesting approach.

Go back and read it again. I DARE you to prove your false claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

^ Sorry... dropped it before "timed out" :

[this popped up in the Search for the exact word (which again, I'd C&P'd from "Original Text") in Rev19:7 (the bold)]

Luke 19:10 ηλθεν γαρ ο υιος του ανθρωπου ζητησαι και σωσαι το απολωλος (studybible.info)


See here (for that word... at the top of this page-->): Luke 19:10 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) "CAME"

Keep in mind that none of the available 26 translations used "came" in Rev 19:7. And some of them made it clear that the event was about to occur. iow, the event "has come". One translation inserted "at last". That would be a weird statement if it had already occurred 7 years before.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
All this talk of a pre-trib rapture, yet ZERO verses that say or indicate that Jesus takes all resurrected/raptured believers back to heaven. I like to call that a U-turn. There are NO u-turns described in the Bible.

Glad you mentioned that.

2 Thess 2-
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Nope.

Yep.

Verse one: rapture.
Verse two: second coming

Reading glasses, perhaps? In v.1 we have BOTH the Second Advent AND the "gathering" which you would call the "rapture".

Paul reconfirms his earlier teaching (pre-trib Rapture) and repudiates the false letter that was circulating.

Please show me ANY verse where Paul indicated a pre-trib rapture.

 

[cv5]

Have you forgotten we are talking about God?

Why do you assume he is already married before he goes to battle? His return is processional according to the prophets.
The wedding is on the earth after his return. His bride is ready. Ready doesn't mean already married.


Psalm 45
Celebration of a Royal Wedding
For the music director; according to The Lilies. Of the sons of Korah.
A maskil. A song of love.

My heart is moved with a good word;
I recite my compositions to the king.
My tongue is the pen of a skilled scribe.
2 You are the most handsome of the sons of humankind;
grace is poured out on your lips;
therefore God has blessed you forever.
3 Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,
in your splendor and your majesty.
4 And in your majesty ride victoriously,
because of truth and humility and righteousness.
And let your right hand teach you awesome deeds.
5 Your arrows are sharp;
peoples fall under you
in the midst of the king’s enemies.
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
A scepter of uprightness is
the scepter of your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
from among your companions with festive oil.

The relationship is FIRST consummated (the chuppah) in the privacy of heaven. The wedding feast occurs afterwards.

All of this matches the Biblical Rapture phenomenon perfectly.

https://bible.ca/marriage/ancient-j...nd-marriage-customs-ceremony-in-the-bible.htm

 

[cv5]

Verse 2 is "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" (not His Second Coming to the earth, but the very negative [aspects of that] time period's ARRIVAL which PRECEDES His Second Coming to the earth--not that the "false conveyors" grasped "timing issues" lol).


In 1Th5:2-3, Paul acknowledges that they "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manor of its ARRIVAL (DOTL), which he says is like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman in labor... which is the EXACT WORD Jesus used (in the "plural") when He spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"... (which are the EQUIVALENT of the SEALS in Rev6)... so Seal #1 (as we now know it) !

This brings me to the conclusion that the ARRIVAL of those (thus the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time-period) IS the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR]" which JESUS SPOKE OF, which is: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" (i.e. SEAL #1 at the START of the trib... aka, what Paul spells out in 2Th2 re: the "whose COMING" [of the "man of sin"]<--"that day" [v.3] will NOT be present [without him and his "parousia / presence" ]--Same point in time as Dan9:27a [26b] "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]")

The entire thrust of 1 Thess 5:1-11 is again the Rapture. That day only overtakes those who are in darkness like a thief. Those who are sober and watching and are of the day have an entirely different fate......

1 Thess 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[cv5]

But there will have been (as I've pointed out several times now)... the "2W" "stood upon their feet" after having been "dead bodies... in the street" for 3.5 days... and this resurrection (after having been dead) takes place at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe"... at a time DISTINCT from when all others will be... and at a point in time WELL-BEFORE the END of the trib (<--at which point the OT saints will then be resurrected [per Job 19:25-27; Daniel 12:13; John 11:24] and also when the Trib saints who DIED in the trib will be resurrected [per Rev20:4b... these being the LAST group to have died, before this point]--pretty much being at the start of the MK age)...

"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" ("first" in QUALITY... "the resurrection OF LIFE" as opposed to "the resurrection OF JUDGMENT/DAMNATION")... Rev20:6





[my sincere apologies... if this post appears in a distracting format... I typed it out before I saw your other post, and I'm not even really certain what you mean exactly by it...]

You have made this point several times I wish everyone here would pay better attention....... including myself!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So bride becomes the wife in heaven around a year or more before the 2nd coming.

Here's how I'm seeing that idea...

[at rapture-timing-->] "and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" 1Th4:17

(G4862 - UNIONed-with... sounds more like "the Marriage" timing ... either way, *this* is BEFORE His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19, which is when the other thing comes into play...)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The entire thrust of 1 Thess 5:1-11 is again the Rapture. That day only overtakes those who are in darkness like a thief. Those who are sober and watching and are of the day have an entirely different fate......

1 Thess 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

That's what I am saying.

BEFORE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" (i.e. the ARRIVAL of the FIRST SEAL), we're outta here (per 2Th2:3b [etc]!)

We (who are "of the day") will not step one foot into [the ARRIVAL] of the "IN THE NIGHT" time period (the DOTL, which STARTS with the TRIB)... the "IN THE NIGHT" ("DARK/DARKNESS" is the "IN HIS TIME" [re: "the man of sin"], like Dan7:7, etc.



____________

In 2Th2:2 "[purporting] that the DOTL *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]" would only be "freaking them out" as something REASONABLE for them to BE CONVINCED OF IS TRUE, is *because* of their PRESENT and ONGOING very negative circumstances they were already and ongoingly EXPERIENCING (2Th4:1 ! <---the CONTEXT of why Paul is having to write about the chpt 2 explanation to them )

 

[cv5]

Here's how I'm seeing that idea...

[at rapture-timing-->] "and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" 1Th4:17

(G4862 - UNIONed-with... sounds more like "the Marriage" timing ... either way, *this* is BEFORE His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19, which is when the other thing comes into play...)

Absolutely correct. We are legally married to Jesus even now. The brideprice has been paid, the ketubbah is in force the arrabon has been pledged. The consummation awaits as does the wedding feast.

This sequence seamlessly integrates into all of the Scripture. Of which the Rapture is an intregal part.

I for one cannot fathom all of this confusion regarding the Rapture. It's Biblical it's there it's real it's going to happen.

 

[Runningman]

Yet even more post-tribulation rapture proofs: Jesus comes at the seventh and last trump, after the tribulation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 11:15-19
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Absolutely correct. We are legally married to Jesus even now. The brideprice has been paid, the ketubbah is in force the arrabon has been pledged. The consummation awaits as does the wedding feast.

This sequence seamlessly integrates into all of the Scripture. Of which the Rapture is an intregal part.

I for one cannot fathom all of this confusion regarding the Rapture. It's Biblical it's there it's real it's going to happen.

And, as I'm sure you already know, Rev.19:6-8 demonstrates that the bride/church is in heaven during the tribulation attending the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, the armies of heaven are wearing the same fine linen, bright and clean that the bride will have just received as they follow Christ out of heaven to the earth riding on white horses.

In order for the bride/church to follow Christ out of heaven, they would already have to be in heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Says the man that leaves out rapture verses

You are the only one leaves rapture verses out.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yet even more post-tribulation rapture proofs: Jesus comes at the seventh and last trump, after the tribulation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 11:15-19
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thundering's, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Hi Running man!

The belief and teaching that the 'last trumpet' and the '7th trumpet' are the same trumpet, is false. What they are doing is pigeonholing the word 'trumpet.' As an example, the 'loud trumpet' of Matt.24:31 that sounds for the angels to gather the righteous at the end the age, is neither the 'last trumpet' nor is it the '7th trumpet.'

The last trumpet, is the last of a type of trumpet and is not just referring to any trumpet, as there are many different types of trumpets with different purposes.

The Last Trumpet = A blessed event where all who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church until the Lord's appearing, will be resurrected, immortal and glorified, with the living being changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them, where according to the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, He takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

The 7th Trumpet = The seventh trumpet/third woe is a plague of God's wrath, the result being that Satan and his angels cast to the earth. This is the cause for the pre-celebration in Rev.11:15-19. It is a part of the process of the authority of the earth reverting back from Satan to God and His Christ.

So one is a blessed event and the other is a plague of wrath.

In addition, there is nothing in or around the context of the 7th trumpet that states anything regarding the church being gathered. And just fyi, contrary to popular belief, Jesus does not return to the earth at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, but does so after the 7th bowl judgment which competes God's wrath. For the Lord will not return to the earth to end the age until God's wrath has been completed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[ugh!!] EDIT to CORRECT:

the manor of

should read "MANNER" (lol)


I was in too much of a rush (to beat the clock: 5-min edit window) when editing the first time, where I'd put "mannor"... but I edited the WRONG LETTER in my HASTE ! (took out the "n" instead of changing the "o" to an "e" because of the RUSH TO EDIT in time! LOL--maddening! )

 

[Runningman]

Hi Running man!

The belief and teaching that the 'last trumpet' and the '7th trumpet' are the same trumpet, is false. What they are doing is pigeonholing the word 'trumpet.' As an example, the 'loud trumpet' of Matt.24:31 that sounds for the angels to gather the righteous at the end the age, is neither the 'last trumpet' nor is it the '7th trumpet.'

The last trumpet, is the last of a type of trumpet and is not referring to any trumpet, as there are many different types of trumpets with different purposes.

The Last Trumpet = A blessed event where all who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church until the Lord's appearing, will be resurrected, immortal and glorified, with the living being changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them, where according to the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, He takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

The 7th Trumpet = The seventh trumpet/third woe is a plague of God's wrath, the result being Satan and his angels cast to the earth. This is the cause for the pre-celebration in Rev.11:15-19. It is a part of the process of the authority of the earth reverting back from Satan to God and His Christ.

In addition, there is nothing in or around the context of the 7th trumpet that states anything regarding the church being gathered. And just fyi, contrary to popular belief, Jesus does not return to the earth at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, but does so after the 7th bowl judgment which competes God's wrath. For the Lord will not return to the earth to end the age until God's wrath has been completed.

The events described with the Last Trumpet and the 7th Trumpet are the same events. This means the Last Trump and 7th Trumpet are the same thing. I just showed you the verses, it's up to you to read them.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about because Revelation 11 mentions the church (servants, prophets, and saints of Christ.) You seem to be ignoring this in order to make it fit with with false pre-trib doctrine.

You have eschatology way wrong. You need to start with the understanding that in Matthew 24 Jesus indisputably returns after the Tribulation. There's no other valid interpretation aside from what the Bible says. Start with this then start over reading the rapture verses and it'll be clearer.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sorry my mistake. I actually meant the 70th week of Daniel aka DOTL. Sometimes I use second coming for the entire seven year period. I will try to be more perfunctory in the future.

Yeah... this very point is one of the reasons "Amill-teaching" misses the point of the text... because of that [their] faulty "definition" (inconsistent with how Scripture uses it) of "the day of the Lord".

[well, that's ONE of the mis-steps taken when interpreting this passage--there are others]



"The DOTL" is an earthly-located time-period that INCLUDES both the Trib yrs AND the entire MK age (thus, its ARRIVAL is at the START of the Trib yrs, namely SEAL #1 [the INITIAL "birth PANG [1Th5:2-3].])

 

[Ahwatukee]

The events described with the Last Trumpet and the 7th Trumpet are the same events. This means the Last Trump and 7th Trumpet are the same thing. I just showed you the verses, it's up to you to read them.

No, they are not the same events. As I just posted, one is a blessed event and the other is plague of wrath. Just because the word 'trumpet' is used in both does not make them the same trumpet and this is the error that many make.

[quotee]I honestly have no idea what you are talking about because Revelation 11 mentions the church (servants, prophets, and saints of Christ.) You seem to be ignoring this in order to make it fit with with false pre-trib doctrine.[/quote]

"And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

The above will surely take place. However, not at that specific time. After the sounding of the 7th trumpet, there will be seven bowl judgments which will complete God's wrath which must take place before the Lord can return. Jesus will not return to the earth to end the age until after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

You have eschatology way wrong. You need to start with the understanding that in Matthew 24 Jesus indisputably returns after the Tribulation. There's no other valid interpretation aside from what the Bible says. Start with this then start over reading the rapture verses and it'll be clearer.

Matt.24: 29-31 is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, where the gathering of the church is a completely different event which takes place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. Many people erroneously have the church gathered when Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age. The problem with this, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer, because Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer. The following scriptures are referring to each of their respective events:

Gathering of the church = John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53, I Thess.4:13-18, Rev.3:10, 4:1

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = Matt.13:24-30, 24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21

As believers in Christ, we have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. The church must therefore be removed from the earth prior to the commencement of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal and ends with the 7th bowl.