Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO REASON why a "U-turn" can't be in the same sentence, or at least same paragraph/context about the resurrection and rapture of all believers. Of course they would occur together.

First of all, where Paul (in 1Cor15:51-54--at the end of an entire chpt covering the Subject of "Resurrection") makes reference to "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal"... he is NOT speaking of ALL the saints of ALL TIME periods being "resurrected"; "Behold, *I* SHEW you A MYSTERY" (not something Daniel and Job and Martha ALREADY WELL-KNEW!)--this is what God specifically tasked Paul with doing.

Guess what! He DID and TWICE in other passages.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse leaves out NO ONE who is saved.

But there's another one:

1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In this passage, Paul included ALL the dead who come WITH Jesus, and ALL the living STILL on earth.

So, again, you have no point.

Secondly, YOU say "there's no reason"... but you are failing to recognize Paul's CONTRASTING the TWO "beliefs" ppl will come to embrace FOLLOWING "our Rapture" when he is speaking of that "future time-period" at either end of his BOOKENDED CONTEXT of BOTH CHPTS: 2Th1&2 (TWO *opposite* "beliefs" ppl will be coming to THEN!); this will BEGIN to open your eyes to the REASONS WHY the Spirit has placed info in the NT writings as they are, rather than how *you* are demanding they be put. (ONE "belief" [they will come to embrace] being what 2Th2:10-12 shows (*GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that)... and the OTHER "belief" being on the OTHER front-end of the BOOKENDS... BOTH speaking of the SAME *future time-period* [just as the OT uses these phrases together in the same context to refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD], that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"...

Hard to follow all these underlined, parenthesis's, and bolded italicized words to discern your point, but it seems to be just an opinion, with no actual Scripture that says what you claim.

[*for God to have spelled it all out in one succinct sentence, like *you expect* He should have, would DEFEAT His OWN STATED PURPOSE here in this text (2Th2:10-12 specifically)... which again, is one of the two BOOKENDS telling of that FUTURE time period and the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl will come to embrace THEN (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); this is ALSO why He placed the words "STASIS / STASIN" in Heb8:8-9a (a PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME), and the word "APO STASIS / APO STASIA" in 2Th2:3... because of His STATED PURPOSE for that "future time period" ("SO THAT")--very similarly to how He says what He says in Matt13:13-15 ]

I guess you really don't realize that none of this refutes my "no reason" comment. Just more opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Since you seem averse to answering questions for clarification, that's fine with me.

I answered, you just ignored what I said and keep making new points.

No you didn't. Instead of answering, you just punted.

Please tell the truth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thank you, this gives me something to think about, and consider as I study.
May the Lord be with you and keep you forever.

Sure, my pleasure. = )

Here's another post I made some time back (Dec 2019)...

... a brief excerpt from "Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau [270ad]"...

... it's just this brief quote of his, that I found to be very similarly-worded to a particular passage speaking of a point in time PRIOR TO Jesus' "return" to the earth [that is, PRIOR TO His 2nd Coming to the earth], that seems (to me) to indicate that he indeed saw a distinction between our Rapture-timing and Christ's Second Coming to the earth (please see what I put at the bottom of that post, where I briefly explain what verse I'm specifically referring to):

Post #725 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4105490

...Who here has debunked the following quote (not saying it's "pre-trib-as-we-know-it," but certainly sounds like "two stages" here in this quote):

"Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last times when the church shall have gone out of the midst."
--Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau, 270ad

[so where it says, "when the church shall have gone out of the midst"... this language is the very language Paul used in 2Th2:7b "until OUT OF THE MIDST HE BE COME [COME TO BE], and then [kai tote]…" [...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And the point here is.....?

I think that was a post I was starting that was intended for @Blackpowderduelist ... where I was going to put something about his point re: Darby... and I was going to bring up something about a man 100 years prior to Darby (whom he referred to) who wrote about the distinction between Israel and the Church, one William Lowth [1660-1732], his writing between 1714-1725 (not that his writings would be exactly like we understand things today... but at least along the same lines... that the Church and Israel are distinct).

Sorry for the confusion... I was called away from my desk (unfinished).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse leaves out NO ONE who is saved.

I do NOT believe it leaves out any of the saved (granted it is speaking in the context of 'resurrection').

I didn't say it leaves out any of the saved... I said ALL "saints" will be present-and-accounted-for at the commencing of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which STARTS after His "RETURN" / 2nd Coming to the earth--ALL saints of ALL time periods will have been 'resurrected' by this point).

I just don't see this verse the same as you do (but I've explained all that in past posts).



--"But each in turn: Christ the firstfruits; then when he comes those who belong to him."

--"and each in his proper order [/rank], a first-fruit Christ, afterwards [/only then -epeita ] those of the Christ in his presence"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But there's another one:
1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In this passage, Paul included ALL the dead who come WITH Jesus, and ALL the living STILL on earth.

So, again, you have no point.

I made a post on this passage not too long back... Notice the part I bolded above ^ ... note that this "WITH" word is "G4862" as I've pointed out a number of times (this being distinct from the "with [G3326]" word used with regard to the "5 Virgins" who "ACCOMPANY Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [their ENTRY into the earthly MK age upon His "RETURN" to the earth])...

This "WITH [G4862 - UNION-with / IDENTIFICATION-with] Him/Jesus" provides a clue to this section... Paul is not merely speaking of one point-in-time ["our Rapture" event] in this text, but how certain events take place in relation to other events... because they were concerned about their deceased loved ones, "how would this work??" I'll leave a portion of the quote I had put in that recent post (which was perhaps even in this thread, not sure):

[quoting Gaebelein, his commentary on 1Th4]

"[...] They knew He would come again; they waited for Him. But as to the manner of His coming and concerning those who had already fallen asleep and their relation to that event they were in ignorance. Beautiful it is to see how graciously the Lord answered the question of these sorrowing ones and how much more He adds for the comfort of all His people.

"The first statement is in 1Thessalonians 4:14. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.” Let us first notice that blessed statement that “Jesus died.” Of the saints it is said that they have fallen asleep; but never is it said that Jesus slept. He tasted death, the death in all its unfathomable meaning as the judgment upon sin. For the saints the physical death is but sleep. (Some have perverted the meaning of “sleep,” and, instead of applying it, as Scripture does, to the body, they apply it to the soul. Soul-sleep is nowhere taught in the Bible and is therefore an invention by those who handle the Word deceitfully.) And He who died also rose again; as certainly as He died and rose again, so surely shall all believers rise. God will bring all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus with Him, that is with the Lord when He comes in the day of His glorious manifestation. [<--By this, he means "His Second Coming to the earth"--not that the Rapture occurs then.] It does not mean the receiving of them by the Lord, nor does it mean that He brings their disembodied spirits with Him to be united to their bodies from the graves, but it means that those who have fallen asleep [through Jesus] will God bring with His Son when He comes with all His saints; they will all be in that glorified company. When the Lord comes back from glory all the departed saints will be with Him. This is what the Thessalonians needed to know first of all. Before we follow this blessed revelation in its unfolding we call attention to the phrase “fallen asleep through (not in) Jesus”; it may also be rendered by “those who were put to sleep by Jesus.” His saints in life and death are in His hands. When saints put their bodies aside, it is because their Lord has willed it so. “Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints” (Psalm 116:15). When our loved ones leave us, may we think of their departure as being “put to sleep by Jesus.”

--Gaebelein, Commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4 (from BibleHub)

1 Thessalonians 4 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)

[end quoting; bold, underline, color and bracketed inserts mine; parentheses original]


____________

[Paul is basically saying, those who've "fallen asleep through Jesus" will not miss out on the "bring WITH [G4862] Jesus/Him" part, see]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Colossians 3:4 -

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with [G4862 (UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with)] him in glory."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Zechariah 3:8 -

Berean Study Bible
"Hear now, O high priest Joshua, you and your companions seated before you, who are indeed a sign. For behold, I am going to bring My servant, the Branch."

King James Bible
"Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [to go with that... a repost from earlier]


Here's a very brief listing of those holding the view that "the man child" of Rev12 is "the Church [which is His body]" (which viewpoint I am also inclined toward believing as well), fairly certain there were [/are] more:

William Kelly (1870)

Charles Stanley (1800s [NOT the guy in Atlanta today = D ])

CH Mackintosh (1800s)

William E Blackstone (1904)

Harry A Ironside (1919)

Geneva Study Bible notes (?)

Dr Michael Svigel (DTS, 2014)


[... and about 10 more I can think of...]



[and this one]

Anglican Rector of Midleton and Canon of Cloyne, Chester wrote in his expansive 1882 work Old Testament Light on New Testament Prophecy:

"Now if the male Man-child of Rev. xii. is to be regarded as solely representing the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into the heavens, as some interpreters affirm; or as representing the visible Christian Church exalted into political power, as taught by others, it were not easy to establish any parallelism, or any correspondence whatsoever between Zech. iii. and Rev. xii. But if the Man-child represents, as is the belief of many students of prophecy, the entire body of “the dead in Christ” raised, and the living in Christ who shall be changed, and both together caught up to meet Him in the air—or if, as I have suggested in the article above referred to—he is to be rather regarded as a portion of the Jewish people—of 'the remnant according to the election of grace' incorporated by conversion to Christ into the Church of this dispensation—and thus 'brought forth'—'born again,'—and then, 'caught up to God and to His throne,' in the rapture of the risen and living saints of 1 Thess. iv.—then, in either of these cases, I submit that this vision of Zechariah iii. corresponds most accurately."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Here's the fuller list:

LIST of those who see the IDENTITY of "The Man Child" (Rev12) as being "the Church" -
(note: not that all of these define "the Church which is His body" in the same way, mind you--these have varying views... but on this one point they hold a common view)

Theodore Beza [b.1519]

Hanserd Knollys [b.1599]

Matthew Poole [b.1624]

Matthew Henry

John Wesley [1700s]

JNDarby [b.1800]

William Kelly [b.1820]

Richard Chester [1882]

Charles Stanley [1800s]

Edward Dennett

WTP Wolston

HA Ironside [b.1876]

Arthur Bloomfield [b.1895]

William Biederwolf

William Blackstone

William L Pettingill [1923]

Chuck Missler [b.1934]

Dr Henry Morris

Dr Michael Svigel [DTS]

 

[Absolutely]

I made a post on this passage not too long back... Notice the part I bolded above ^ ... note that this "WITH" word is "G4862" as I've pointed out a number of times (this being distinct from the "with [G3326]" word used with regard to the "5 Virgins" who "ACCOMPANY Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [their ENTRY into the earthly MK age upon His "RETURN" to the earth])...

This "WITH [G4862 - UNION-with / IDENTIFICATION-with] Him/Jesus" provides a clue to this section... Paul is not merely speaking of one point-in-time ["our Rapture" event] in this text, but how certain events take place in relation to other events... because they were concerned about their deceased loved ones, "how would this work??" I'll leave a portion of the quote I had put in that recent post (which was perhaps even in this thread, not sure):

[quoting Gaebelein, his commentary on 1Th4]

"[...] They knew He would come again; they waited for Him. But as to the manner of His coming and concerning those who had already fallen asleep and their relation to that event they were in ignorance. Beautiful it is to see how graciously the Lord answered the question of these sorrowing ones and how much more He adds for the comfort of all His people.

"The first statement is in 1Thessalonians 4:14. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.” Let us first notice that blessed statement that “Jesus died.” Of the saints it is said that they have fallen asleep; but never is it said that Jesus slept. He tasted death, the death in all its unfathomable meaning as the judgment upon sin. For the saints the physical death is but sleep. (Some have perverted the meaning of “sleep,” and, instead of applying it, as Scripture does, to the body, they apply it to the soul. Soul-sleep is nowhere taught in the Bible and is therefore an invention by those who handle the Word deceitfully.) And He who died also rose again; as certainly as He died and rose again, so surely shall all believers rise. God will bring all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus with Him, that is with the Lord when He comes in the day of His glorious manifestation. [<--By this, he means "His Second Coming to the earth"--not that the Rapture occurs then.] It does not mean the receiving of them by the Lord, nor does it mean that He brings their disembodied spirits with Him to be united to their bodies from the graves, but it means that those who have fallen asleep [through Jesus] will God bring with His Son when He comes with all His saints; they will all be in that glorified company. When the Lord comes back from glory all the departed saints will be with Him. This is what the Thessalonians needed to know first of all. Before we follow this blessed revelation in its unfolding we call attention to the phrase “fallen asleep through (not in) Jesus”; it may also be rendered by “those who were put to sleep by Jesus.” His saints in life and death are in His hands. When saints put their bodies aside, it is because their Lord has willed it so. “Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints” (Psalm 116:15). When our loved ones leave us, may we think of their departure as being “put to sleep by Jesus.”

--Gaebelein, Commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4 (from BibleHub)

1 Thessalonians 4 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)

[end quoting; bold, underline, color and bracketed inserts mine; parentheses original]


____________

[Paul is basically saying, those who've "fallen asleep through Jesus" will not miss out on the "bring WITH [G4862] Jesus/Him" part, see]

"""the "5 Virgins" who "ACCOMPANY Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [their ENTRY into the earthly MK age upon His "RETURN" to the earth])..."""

Oh brother.
The dialogue at the last supper,rev 19, and the parable itself,combined with mat 24's " one taken/left all go against that theory.

The one taken/ left is the rapture.
It says " before the flood" .."one taken/left" ..."watch and wait and be ready" ...all in the same breath.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse leaves out NO ONE who is saved.

I do NOT believe it leaves out any of the saved (granted it is speaking in the context of 'resurrection').

I didn't think you did. My point is that the verse suggests that, after Christ's resurrection, ALL the believers are resurrected at one time. I don't see any kind of "2-step" kind of resurrection.

So, the wording in Rev 20:5 becomes more powerful about a single resurrection/rapture for ALL believers.

iow, there's not a resurrection before the Trib, then one at the end of the Trib.

I didn't say it leaves out any of the saved... I said ALL "saints" will be present-and-accounted-for at the commencing of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which STARTS after His "RETURN" / 2nd Coming to the earth--ALL saints of ALL time periods will have been 'resurrected' by this point).

Total agreement here!

I just don't see this verse the same as you do (but I've explained all that in past posts).

Rev 20:5 speaks of a "first resurrection". And 1 Cor 15:23 groups ALL believers together in the context of resurrections. That seems quite a solid bit of fact. No constructs here.

--"But each in turn: Christ the firstfruits; then when he comes those who belong to him."

Everyone who has died and all the living believers will be resurrectetd/changed in one event. That's clear from this verse.

So, how do you explain the "first resurrection" in Rev 20:5?

There can't be a resurrection of believers BEFORE the first one.

 

[Absolutely]

^ Here's the fuller list:

LIST of those who see the IDENTITY of "The Man Child" (Rev12) as being "the Church" -
(note: not that all of these define "the Church which is His body" in the same way, mind you--these have varying views... but on this one point they hold a common view)

Theodore Beza [b.1519]

Hanserd Knollys [b.1599]

Matthew Poole [b.1624]

Matthew Henry

John Wesley [1700s]

JNDarby [b.1800]

William Kelly [b.1820]

Richard Chester [1882]

Charles Stanley [1800s]

Edward Dennett

WTP Wolston

HA Ironside [b.1876]

Arthur Bloomfield [b.1895]

William Biederwolf

William Blackstone

William L Pettingill [1923]

Chuck Missler [b.1934]

Dr Henry Morris

Dr Michael Svigel [DTS]

Yes
The man child is Christ

 

[Absolutely]

This is a cheap shot. I'm not "restricting the Lord" in any way. I've presented scholarly work on Acts 3:21, from the Analytical Greek Lexicon regarding "dechomai". That lexicon renders "heaven must receive" as "heaven must receive and retain, contain".

That is clear evidence that Jesus stays in heaven. And I had nothing to do with it. It wasn't my idea either. I'm not making up anything. And I have no constructs.


It is the unsupported constructs that are "ridiculous".


I'm still waiting for the "rest of the Scriptures" that clearly indicate that Jesus makes a U-turn with the resurrected/raptured saints and goes back to heaven.

Until then.....


I've swept nothing under any rug. I've given scholarly work that supports what I believe. Plus the zero verses that tell us that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured saints back to heaven.


If you are insinuating that I've done this, please be clear as to what is false in what I've posted.


I'm sure you are well aware that either side of any argument is tempted to use this verse against their opponents. Nothing new here.

Just provide the clear verses about Jesus taking all the resurrected/raptured saints back to heaven. That would do it for me.

Laughable how you omit verses and fool yourself.
Laughable

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
But there's another one:
1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I made a post on this passage not too long back... Notice the part I bolded above ^ ... note that this "WITH" word is "G4862" as I've pointed out a number of times (this being distinct from the "with [G3326]" word used with regard to the "5 Virgins" who "ACCOMPANY Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [their ENTRY into the earthly MK age upon His "RETURN" to the earth])...

This "WITH [G4862 - UNION-with / IDENTIFICATION-with] Him/Jesus" provides a clue to this section... Paul is not merely speaking of one point-in-time ["our Rapture" event] in this text, but how certain events take place in relation to other events... because they were concerned about their deceased loved ones, "how would this work??" I'll leave a portion of the quote I had put in that recent post (which was perhaps even in this thread, not sure):

[quoting Gaebelein, his commentary on 1Th4]

"[...] They knew He would come again; they waited for Him. But as to the manner of His coming and concerning those who had already fallen asleep and their relation to that event they were in ignorance. Beautiful it is to see how graciously the Lord answered the question of these sorrowing ones and how much more He adds for the comfort of all His people.

With respect, this is just an opinion. It's someone trying to explain Scripture.

"The first statement is in 1Thessalonians 4:14. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.” Let us first notice that blessed statement that “Jesus died.” Of the saints it is said that they have fallen asleep; but never is it said that Jesus slept. He tasted death, the death in all its unfathomable meaning as the judgment upon sin. For the saints the physical death is but sleep. (Some have perverted the meaning of “sleep,” and, instead of applying it, as Scripture does, to the body, they apply it to the soul. Soul-sleep is nowhere taught in the Bible and is therefore an invention by those who handle the Word deceitfully.) And He who died also rose again; as certainly as He died and rose again, so surely shall all believers rise. God will bring all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus with Him, that is with the Lord when He comes in the day of His glorious manifestation. [<--By this, he means "His Second Coming to the earth"--not that the Rapture occurs then.] It does not mean the receiving of them by the Lord, nor does it mean that He brings their disembodied spirits with Him to be united to their bodies from the graves, but it means that those who have fallen asleep [through Jesus] will God bring with His Son when He comes with all His saints; they will all be in that glorified company. When the Lord comes back from glory all the departed saints will be with Him. This is what the Thessalonians needed to know first of all. Before we follow this blessed revelation in its unfolding we call attention to the phrase “fallen asleep through (not in) Jesus”; it may also be rendered by “those who were put to sleep by Jesus.” His saints in life and death are in His hands. When saints put their bodies aside, it is because their Lord has willed it so. “Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints” (Psalm 116:15). When our loved ones leave us, may we think of their departure as being “put to sleep by Jesus.”

--Gaebelein, Commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4 (from BibleHub)

His opinion. What he can't explain is how there can be a resurrection of believers BEFORE and also AFTER the Trib.

iow, there simply can't be two "first resurrections". Only one.

1 Thessalonians 4 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)

[end quoting; bold, underline, color and bracketed inserts mine; parentheses original]

It's rather difficult reading a post in "reply mode" with all those inserts included. I wish the forum could fix that distraction. They could, like other forums, include the quotes in the same way we read them before we reply to them.

[Paul is basically saying, those who've "fallen asleep through Jesus" will not miss out on the "bring WITH [G4862] Jesus/Him" part, see]

Yes, this is true, but I fail to see how this supports two "first resurrections".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Laughable how you omit verses and fool yourself.
Laughable

When you get a grip on your merriment, please show which verse or verses I'm "omitted".

I'll wait. lol

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, how do you explain the "first resurrection" in Rev 20:5?

There can't be a resurrection of believers BEFORE the first one.

But there will have been (as I've pointed out several times now)... the "2W" "stood upon their feet" after having been "dead bodies... in the street" for 3.5 days... and this resurrection (after having been dead) takes place at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe"... at a time DISTINCT from when all others will be... and at a point in time WELL-BEFORE the END of the trib (<--at which point the OT saints will then be resurrected [per Job 19:25-27; Daniel 12:13; John 11:24] and also when the Trib saints who DIED in the trib will be resurrected [per Rev20:4b... these being the LAST group to have died, before this point]--pretty much being at the start of the MK age)...

"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" ("first" in QUALITY... "the resurrection OF LIFE" as opposed to "the resurrection OF JUDGMENT/DAMNATION")... Rev20:6





[my sincere apologies... if this post appears in a distracting format... I typed it out before I saw your other post, and I'm not even really certain what you mean exactly by it...]

 

[Absolutely]

Thanks for posting this.

I don't have a strong opinion on escatology, I don't understand it enough to argue about it. Mostly I'm just trying to figure out where I stand.
I know this sounds like arguement, but let assume the best of each other.
In Revelation 9 there is an angel who unleashed monster locusts who are told not to harm those with the seal of God.

And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Revelation 9:1‭-‬4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.9.1-4.ESV

The only people sealed of God are us his saints redeemed by the Lord Jesus. This passage wod imply that the church is here at least during this event which is the fifth angel.

A reading of revelation seems to have the church out between the sixth and seventh seal, but the 8th chapter could be an aside, however the reading says, after this I saw.

""The only people sealed of God are us his saints redeemed by the Lord Jesus. This passage wod imply that the church is here at least during this event which is the fifth angel.""

If we are sealed ( and we are) there is no reason to "reseal".

No sir.
The 144k are sealed but are already born again.
They are believers, and only they are sealed.
Only 144k are sealed and only they are protected.
IOW Sealed against the flying scorpions
So it is the opposite of your assertion.
No church is present in the gt. Only at the first...and that group ends up in heaven as the innumerable number....right away.(martyred with dirty robes...the 5 foolish virgins)

It says " all take the mark"... So no believers are on the planet except for the 144k and the Jews who are ushered to a safe place.

The gt is " jacobs trouble" .. so all you guys trying to make it "bride's trouble" are way way off.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rev 19 provides insight into when the wedding supper occurs.

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Does this sound like a description of an event about to occur or an event that has already occurred?

8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

Same question.

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

If the wedding supper occurred in heaven right after a pre-trib rapture, we should see different words. Especially in v.9, "who ARE invited". It would have said "who WERE invited."

The words in red suggest an event that is about to occur, not one that has already occurred.

For those who want to parse the verbs, I already know which are aorist and which are perfect participles. The aorist, while usually refers to a past event, it doesn't always.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But there will have been (as I've pointed out several times now)... the "2W" "stood upon their feet" after having been "dead bodies... in the street" for 3.5 days... and this resurrection (after having been dead) takes place at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe"... at a time DISTINCT from when all others will be... and at a point in time WELL-BEFORE the END of the trib (<--at which point the OT saints will then be resurrected [per Job 19:25-27; Daniel 12:13; John 11:24] and also when the Trib saints who DIED in the trib will be resurrected [per Rev20:4b... these being the LAST group to have died, before this point]--pretty much being at the start of the MK age)...

Interesting proposition. But, what convinces you that the 2W were resurrected? They went to heaven in their physical bodies. So they come back to earth, and then physically die. Jesus raised a number of dead people during His ministry, including Lazarus. Was He resurrecting any of them? No. Remember, Christ is the firstfruits. That means He is the very first human to be resurrected with a resurrection body. Did any of the people that Jesus raised from the dead get a resurrection body? The Bible sure doesn't say so. But if they did, they SHOULD BE called the "firstfruits" instead of Christ.

So I have no problem with them going back to heaven in the exact same way every other believer who dies goes to heaven. Only they still have their physical bodies. So they will get THEIR resurrection bodies when everyone else does, when Christ comes back at the Second Advent.

"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" ("first" in QUALITY... "the resurrection OF LIFE" as opposed to "the resurrection OF JUDGMENT/DAMNATION")... Rev20:6

Where do you get "first in quality"? Again, the "first" resurrection is when ALL believers, dead and living, receive their new immortal bodies.

I do not see various events that are all grouped together as a "first resurrection".

my sincere apologies... if this post appears in a distracting format... I typed it out before I saw your other post, and I'm not even really certain what you mean exactly by it...]

By all means, please ask and I'm always happy to clarify, explain, etc.

I do not want my posts to be unintentionally misunderstood.