Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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Agreed! However, I was speaking specifically about believers within the church, because it is the church that they are saying will go through God's wrath, with the Lord gathering us after He returns to the earth to end the age. Since God's wrath must and will take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth, then it would necessarily put the living church through the entire wrath of God.
I believe that this mid and post teaching is based on a couple of different erroneous interpretations, one being that instead of recognizing the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events, they made them into the same event. In doing this, the ignore the fact that Jesus has already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. And when we believed we were credited with righteousness (Rom.4:23) and reconciled to God (2 Cor.5:18), reconciliation meaning that we went from enmity/hostility to friendship with God. Yet, they still believe and teach that believers within the church are still going to go through God's wrath?
Regarding what you mentioned above, yes, there will be those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. I'm sure that just like with everything, that God, according to His Sovereign will and purpose, chose this group which no man can count, before the world began as those who would go through that time period. They will do so simply because they will not have become believers until after the church has been gathered. Anyone who is not watching and ready when the bridegroom appears, will be caught in that time period of God's wrath, like a trap. After the elder asked John who this group is, he identified them as the saints who come out of the great tribulation. And scripture reveals that they are exposed to the plagues of wrath that will be taking place, as can be concluded from the following:
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"‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat." - Rev.7:16
==============================================================
Never again will they hunger = Third seal famine, Second trumpet (a third of the fish destroyed), etc.
Never again will they thirst = Third trumpet and second and third bowl judgment (a third of the water contaminated, ocean and fresh water turned into literal blood, respectively).
The sun will not beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat = Fourth bowl judgement where the inhabitants of the earth are scorched with the heat of the sun and seared with intense heat.
Not only that, but the beast will be given power to make war and to conquer the majority of these saints. I say majority because some have to survive in order to repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. These are the wheat that will be collected by the angels mentioned in Matt.13:30, 24:31, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
But going back to the church, Paul says that sudden destruction will come upon the wicked and they shall not escape. But you brothers are not in darkness that this day should take you by surprise, like a thief. The way in which that day will not take us by surprise is because the Lord will appear and gather His church from the earth. Just the words "but you brothers" would infer the opposite of not escaping. Paul says this just after he gave his detailed account of the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up. And that's the escape.
I believe that this mid and post teaching is based on a couple of different erroneous interpretations, one being that instead of recognizing the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events, they made them into the same event. In doing this, the ignore the fact that Jesus has already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. And when we believed we were credited with righteousness (Rom.4:23) and reconciled to God (2 Cor.5:18), reconciliation meaning that we went from enmity/hostility to friendship with God. Yet, they still believe and teach that believers within the church are still going to go through God's wrath?
Regarding what you mentioned above, yes, there will be those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. I'm sure that just like with everything, that God, according to His Sovereign will and purpose, chose this group which no man can count, before the world began as those who would go through that time period. They will do so simply because they will not have become believers until after the church has been gathered. Anyone who is not watching and ready when the bridegroom appears, will be caught in that time period of God's wrath, like a trap. After the elder asked John who this group is, he identified them as the saints who come out of the great tribulation. And scripture reveals that they are exposed to the plagues of wrath that will be taking place, as can be concluded from the following:
==============================================================
"‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat." - Rev.7:16
==============================================================
Never again will they hunger = Third seal famine, Second trumpet (a third of the fish destroyed), etc.
Never again will they thirst = Third trumpet and second and third bowl judgment (a third of the water contaminated, ocean and fresh water turned into literal blood, respectively).
The sun will not beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat = Fourth bowl judgement where the inhabitants of the earth are scorched with the heat of the sun and seared with intense heat.
Not only that, but the beast will be given power to make war and to conquer the majority of these saints. I say majority because some have to survive in order to repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. These are the wheat that will be collected by the angels mentioned in Matt.13:30, 24:31, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
But going back to the church, Paul says that sudden destruction will come upon the wicked and they shall not escape. But you brothers are not in darkness that this day should take you by surprise, like a thief. The way in which that day will not take us by surprise is because the Lord will appear and gather His church from the earth. Just the words "but you brothers" would infer the opposite of not escaping. Paul says this just after he gave his detailed account of the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up. And that's the escape.
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Let me just put this (to add clarification to what I've put earlier in this thread)... to be more clear, I'm not suggesting that the scene in Rev4-5 (in Heaven, where in 5:9 they say "hast redeemed US" and are wearing the awarded "stephanon/crowns" and are seated on "THRONES") that that "location" (at that scene) is the PERMANENT RESIDENCE (so to speak) of the Church which is His body for all eternity. No. I see this scene (IN Heaven) more akin to being limited to that future, specific, limited time period [when the 7-yr trib is unfolding upon the earth] (and for a specific purpose) before we head back down "WITH [G4862] Him" for "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (i.e. the earthly MK age, or at least its inauguration), where the "guests" & "5 Virgins/Bridesmaids" etc [saints] are still located (having come to faith in/during/within the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture").
I mentioned earlier this scene being like a "courtroom" situation (i.e. for a certain, specific time-period and purpose, not a permanent/forever "residence"), so it would be more like what we see expressed in the following passage:
Deuteronomy 17:8,10 - "Courts of Law" - (note the bolded phrases)
8 If a case is too difficult for you to judge, whether the controversy within your gates is regarding bloodshed, lawsuits, or assaults, you must go up to the place the LORD your God will choose. 9 You are to go to the Levitical priests and to the judge who presides at that time. Inquire of them, and they will give you a verdict in the case.
10 You must abide by the verdict they give you at the place the LORD will choose. Be careful to do everything they instruct you, 11 according to the terms of law they give and the verdict they proclaim. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left from the decision they declare to you.
I mentioned earlier this scene being like a "courtroom" situation (i.e. for a certain, specific time-period and purpose, not a permanent/forever "residence"), so it would be more like what we see expressed in the following passage:
Deuteronomy 17:8,10 - "Courts of Law" - (note the bolded phrases)
8 If a case is too difficult for you to judge, whether the controversy within your gates is regarding bloodshed, lawsuits, or assaults, you must go up to the place the LORD your God will choose. 9 You are to go to the Levitical priests and to the judge who presides at that time. Inquire of them, and they will give you a verdict in the case.
10 You must abide by the verdict they give you at the place the LORD will choose. Be careful to do everything they instruct you, 11 according to the terms of law they give and the verdict they proclaim. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left from the decision they declare to you.
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FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible has already explained it. When a person places their full trust alone in Christ's work on the cross alone for salvation.
Everyone, before the crucifixion was anticipating. So what's your point?
Nope. Everything in the gospel of John is for "the whole world". Please don't kid yourself.
I have no idea what you are talkinga bout. What does NC refer to?
Do you believe in replacement theology?
The Bible has already explained it. When a person places their full trust alone in Christ's work on the cross alone for salvation.
Everyone, before the crucifixion was anticipating. So what's your point?
Nope. Everything in the gospel of John is for "the whole world". Please don't kid yourself.
I have no idea what you are talkinga bout. What does NC refer to?
Do you believe in replacement theology?
You are so cute, I used the same shorthand, NC, that you have used in the post I quoted from you and you can still tell me "I have no idea what you are talkinga bout. What does NC refer to? "
No one, including Peter expected Christ to die on the cross, Peter even rebuked Christ for telling them that, and on the 3rd day, none of them were camping outside the tomb counting down to his resurrection.
So your point "Everyone, before the crucifixion was anticipating" is incorrect.
No one, including Peter expected Christ to die on the cross, Peter even rebuked Christ for telling them that, and on the 3rd day, none of them were camping outside the tomb counting down to his resurrection.
So your point "Everyone, before the crucifixion was anticipating" is incorrect.
FreeGrace2 said:
Here's a thought to consider: He was speaking of the New Jerusalem, which WILL come down from heaven to the new earth. And those who belong to Him will live there.
Problem solved.
Once again, there is no indication that Jesus comes "in the clouds", resurrects and raptures all the saints, and then takes them back up to heaven. Zero evidence. If that is what will happen, how come there is not any verse that says so?
Plus, Jesus is "received in heaven UNTIL the restoration". Or remains, or stays. That completely eviserates a pre-trib rapture.
I don't see how any of this applies or refers to end times.
The wording in Rev 19 regarding the wedding supper and the Bride getting herself ready is phrased in an expected activity, not one that already occurred 7 years prior.
And you just can't get around the fact that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is called the "first resurrection". You have to do great damage to language to get two separate resurrections from those words.
And 1 Cor 15:23 makes clear that, regarding resurrection, Christ is the first fruits, meaning He was resurrected first, and "then, those who belong to Him". Clearly a whole group event.
iow, Christ's resurrection is called the "firstfruits", and the "first resurrection is defined by "those who belong to Him".
Unless you can provide a clear and reasonable explanation for these facts that fit your views, there is no reason to accept a pre-trib resurrection/rapture.
Here's a thought to consider: He was speaking of the New Jerusalem, which WILL come down from heaven to the new earth. And those who belong to Him will live there.
Problem solved.
Once again, there is no indication that Jesus comes "in the clouds", resurrects and raptures all the saints, and then takes them back up to heaven. Zero evidence. If that is what will happen, how come there is not any verse that says so?
Plus, Jesus is "received in heaven UNTIL the restoration". Or remains, or stays. That completely eviserates a pre-trib rapture.
I don't see how any of this applies or refers to end times.
The wording in Rev 19 regarding the wedding supper and the Bride getting herself ready is phrased in an expected activity, not one that already occurred 7 years prior.
And you just can't get around the fact that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is called the "first resurrection". You have to do great damage to language to get two separate resurrections from those words.
And 1 Cor 15:23 makes clear that, regarding resurrection, Christ is the first fruits, meaning He was resurrected first, and "then, those who belong to Him". Clearly a whole group event.
iow, Christ's resurrection is called the "firstfruits", and the "first resurrection is defined by "those who belong to Him".
Unless you can provide a clear and reasonable explanation for these facts that fit your views, there is no reason to accept a pre-trib resurrection/rapture.
I don't have time to go back and review posts. And you STILL won't extend the courtesy of giving an answer. Thanks.
Not true. This is what the disciples said to Jesus:
John 11:13 - Then Thomas (also known as Didymus ) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
So they did know that Jesus was going to die. He had told them.
Let's just say Peter was a "rockhead".
To be clear, I meant that salvation was STILL by faith in the work of the Messiah. Since He hadn't died for them yet, they were anticipating it.
Not true. This is what the disciples said to Jesus:
John 11:13 - Then Thomas (also known as Didymus ) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
So they did know that Jesus was going to die. He had told them.
Let's just say Peter was a "rockhead".
To be clear, I meant that salvation was STILL by faith in the work of the Messiah. Since He hadn't died for them yet, they were anticipating it.
B
I never said they were, "deity". Niether was John Darby, and Tim Lehaye. Nor any of the preachers of the modernist era and philosophy, nor the revivalist preachers.
However with the church Fathers we have the cannon of the Bible. If you trust the Bible then why not the teachings of the men that God used to bring us the Bible. They also brought us wonderful summaries of Biblical concepts like the Trinity as spelled out by the Athanasian Creed, and also basic beliefs of the Christian like the Apostles Creed. Also of we bothered to read Augustine then you would know that Calvin took one side of what Augustine taught and ran out into left field with it, and modern reformed have taken it even further.
Ignoring the history of the church and the teachings of the ancient church is just plain willful stupidity. Pretending that the fathers had nothing of value to say about the very things we argue today is foolishness of the highest order.
I can think of hundreds of thousands of examples of people who listen to modern preachers, preach nonsense and eat it up because they have no understanding or education (self education is still education) of the Bible or church History.
However with the church Fathers we have the cannon of the Bible. If you trust the Bible then why not the teachings of the men that God used to bring us the Bible. They also brought us wonderful summaries of Biblical concepts like the Trinity as spelled out by the Athanasian Creed, and also basic beliefs of the Christian like the Apostles Creed. Also of we bothered to read Augustine then you would know that Calvin took one side of what Augustine taught and ran out into left field with it, and modern reformed have taken it even further.
Ignoring the history of the church and the teachings of the ancient church is just plain willful stupidity. Pretending that the fathers had nothing of value to say about the very things we argue today is foolishness of the highest order.
I can think of hundreds of thousands of examples of people who listen to modern preachers, preach nonsense and eat it up because they have no understanding or education (self education is still education) of the Bible or church History.
Clearly this is the case no doubt about it. Why in the world would anyone restrict such activity?
There were angels and Christophanies back in the old testament many times. There is reason to believe that before the flood this occurred on even a grander scale. Satan and fallen angels seem to be regular commuters as well.
There were angels and Christophanies back in the old testament many times. There is reason to believe that before the flood this occurred on even a grander scale. Satan and fallen angels seem to be regular commuters as well.
My friend is this took me about two seconds of effort on a search engine....I hope it helps. Godbless you in your searching for the truth.
https://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/
https://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/
Again, it doesn't say, "UNTIL the restoration"... It says, "...UNTIL the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age" (which I'm saying commences just after He ceases the "sit" thing, and does the "descend" thing, which is immediately followed by the "STAND to JUDGE" thing in Rev5:6 [Isa3:13]... with the opening of SEAL #1 [i.e. INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka the 7-yr trib)
I've said (over and over) "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" *is* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or at the very least, its inauguration)... located ON THE EARTH, so yes, they are about to "head back down... TO it [FOR its commencing]"...
--the "HAVING BEEN INVITED" part speaks of the "INVITATION" that has been going on throughout the trib years ON THE EARTH, done by the "inviters" (I already spelled that out in past posts--those "INVITERS" are "on the earth" in/during/within the trib yrs... they are "INVITING" TO the earthly MK age / "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [also "on the earth, i.e. the earthly MK age]... this pertains to "the invited 'GUESTS [PLURAL]'"--"those [plural] having been INVITED [perfect tense]" Rev19:9)...
--"the MARRIAGE" itself (Rev19:7) is DISTINCT, and pertains to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... and for that, the text just says, "[the marriage] CAME" (see below) and "[bride/wife] PREPARED" (see below):
1) "CAME" - this same word is used HERE: Matthew 12:42 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) Matt12:42 "[re: queen of the south] she CAME" (a long time before this thing that was now being SAID of her, in this text);
2) "PREPARED" - this same word is used here: Greek Concordance: ἡτοίμασεν (hētoimasen) -- 3 Occurrences (biblehub.com) , one example: 1Cor2:9 - "has not entered into heart of man, what God PREPARED for those loving Him." (How long before this was said in 1Cor2, had He "PREPARED"?)
My contention is that "the MARRIAGE" itself has taken place IN HEAVEN, by this point (pertaining solely to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"), and now they are headed back down to the earth FOR "the marriage FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (the earthly MK, its inauguration... WHERE those [plural] "having been INVITED" [throughout the earthly TRIB yrs], i.e. "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" [etc], are still-located / have never "lifted off" from, and don't ever, because "Rapture" does not pertain to THOSE saints: both OT saints [now 'resurrected' FOR it] and Trib saints [whether having DIED in the trib and now 'resurrected' FOR it; or are 'still-living' like Dan12:12's "BLESSED" and about 8 parallel passages to this, as I've said])
"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" (not saying this is the fist time ppl are "resurrected," b/c the 2W were already resurrected back at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" at a point in time DISTINCT from when all others are resurrected... and they already "ascended up into Heaven" too, prior to this point in the chronology being referenced now [Rev19]);
--"the resurrection OF LIFE" (first in quality--but 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER [/RANK]" (a word, "RANK," not implying ONLY ONE remaining at one singular point in time); same for where James says, "a KIND of firstfruit" / "a CERTAIN firstfruit" (meaning, there is more that ONE KIND--I've pointed out the TWO mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23, and that "the 144,000" [in Rev14:4 wording] corresponds with [the wording of] the SECOND of these TWO mentions of "FF" in Lev23, being in v.17 [re: the "WHEAT" harvest], where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [and where I've said, "WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT harvest"]
I've pointed out 1Cor12:12, "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ" (Paul points this out over and over and over, in many different ways)... see also, Eph5 - "[...] even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."... Then see also Gen2:22 - "And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him." (This took place ON THE SIXTH DAY, not "the 7th [/the LAST] day" [pertaining to others, as both Job and Martha acknowledged and KNEW WELL (it was NO "MYSTERY" to them!)].)
...doubt I can convince you...
= )
Have a great day. Peace out.
I've said (over and over) "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" *is* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or at the very least, its inauguration)... located ON THE EARTH, so yes, they are about to "head back down... TO it [FOR its commencing]"...
--the "HAVING BEEN INVITED" part speaks of the "INVITATION" that has been going on throughout the trib years ON THE EARTH, done by the "inviters" (I already spelled that out in past posts--those "INVITERS" are "on the earth" in/during/within the trib yrs... they are "INVITING" TO the earthly MK age / "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [also "on the earth, i.e. the earthly MK age]... this pertains to "the invited 'GUESTS [PLURAL]'"--"those [plural] having been INVITED [perfect tense]" Rev19:9)...
--"the MARRIAGE" itself (Rev19:7) is DISTINCT, and pertains to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... and for that, the text just says, "[the marriage] CAME" (see below) and "[bride/wife] PREPARED" (see below):
1) "CAME" - this same word is used HERE: Matthew 12:42 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) Matt12:42 "[re: queen of the south] she CAME" (a long time before this thing that was now being SAID of her, in this text);
2) "PREPARED" - this same word is used here: Greek Concordance: ἡτοίμασεν (hētoimasen) -- 3 Occurrences (biblehub.com) , one example: 1Cor2:9 - "has not entered into heart of man, what God PREPARED for those loving Him." (How long before this was said in 1Cor2, had He "PREPARED"?)
My contention is that "the MARRIAGE" itself has taken place IN HEAVEN, by this point (pertaining solely to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"), and now they are headed back down to the earth FOR "the marriage FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (the earthly MK, its inauguration... WHERE those [plural] "having been INVITED" [throughout the earthly TRIB yrs], i.e. "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" [etc], are still-located / have never "lifted off" from, and don't ever, because "Rapture" does not pertain to THOSE saints: both OT saints [now 'resurrected' FOR it] and Trib saints [whether having DIED in the trib and now 'resurrected' FOR it; or are 'still-living' like Dan12:12's "BLESSED" and about 8 parallel passages to this, as I've said])
"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" (not saying this is the fist time ppl are "resurrected," b/c the 2W were already resurrected back at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" at a point in time DISTINCT from when all others are resurrected... and they already "ascended up into Heaven" too, prior to this point in the chronology being referenced now [Rev19]);
--"the resurrection OF LIFE" (first in quality--but 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER [/RANK]" (a word, "RANK," not implying ONLY ONE remaining at one singular point in time); same for where James says, "a KIND of firstfruit" / "a CERTAIN firstfruit" (meaning, there is more that ONE KIND--I've pointed out the TWO mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23, and that "the 144,000" [in Rev14:4 wording] corresponds with [the wording of] the SECOND of these TWO mentions of "FF" in Lev23, being in v.17 [re: the "WHEAT" harvest], where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [and where I've said, "WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT harvest"]
I've pointed out 1Cor12:12, "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ" (Paul points this out over and over and over, in many different ways)... see also, Eph5 - "[...] even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."... Then see also Gen2:22 - "And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him." (This took place ON THE SIXTH DAY, not "the 7th [/the LAST] day" [pertaining to others, as both Job and Martha acknowledged and KNEW WELL (it was NO "MYSTERY" to them!)].)
...doubt I can convince you...
= )
Have a great day. Peace out.
Good day, Blackpowerduelist!
Below is a chronological summary of end-time events:
* We are here
* The Lord appears in the air and gathers the church, taking them back to the Father's house
* The wrath of God (seals, trumpets, bowls, witnesses plagues, beasts reign, etc.)
* After the 7th bowl the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom
* Beast and false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire
* Satan bound in the Abyss during the thousand years
* Great tribulation saints resurrected
* Millennial kingdom
* Satan released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years to deceive one last time
* Satan thrown into the lake of fire
* Great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead and cast into the lake of fire
* New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem
* Eternity
=================================================================
So, the next event to take place, will be when the Lord appears and gathers the church, dead and living, taking them back to the Father's house, which would be in heaven.
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age is another event which will take place after the 7th bowl judgment and which will complete God's wrath. It is at this time that the Lord will establish His millennial kingdom.
Many come to wrong conclusions, because they interpret the two events above as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The problem with that, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Since Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. They have been reconciled to God. In addition, scripture makes clear that believers in the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, neither the wrath that is quickly approaching upon this earth, nor at the great white throne judgment.
Below is a chronological summary of end-time events:
* We are here
* The Lord appears in the air and gathers the church, taking them back to the Father's house
* The wrath of God (seals, trumpets, bowls, witnesses plagues, beasts reign, etc.)
* After the 7th bowl the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom
* Beast and false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire
* Satan bound in the Abyss during the thousand years
* Great tribulation saints resurrected
* Millennial kingdom
* Satan released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years to deceive one last time
* Satan thrown into the lake of fire
* Great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead and cast into the lake of fire
* New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem
* Eternity
=================================================================
So, the next event to take place, will be when the Lord appears and gathers the church, dead and living, taking them back to the Father's house, which would be in heaven.
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age is another event which will take place after the 7th bowl judgment and which will complete God's wrath. It is at this time that the Lord will establish His millennial kingdom.
Many come to wrong conclusions, because they interpret the two events above as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The problem with that, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Since Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. They have been reconciled to God. In addition, scripture makes clear that believers in the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, neither the wrath that is quickly approaching upon this earth, nor at the great white throne judgment.
Again, it doesn't say, "UNTIL the restoration"... It says, "...UNTIL the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age" (which I'm saying commences just after He ceases the "sit" thing, and does the "descend" thing, which is immediately followed by the "STAND to JUDGE" thing in Rev5:6 [Isa3:13]... with the opening of SEAL #1 [i.e. INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka the 7-yr trib)
I've said (over and over) "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" *is* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or at the very least, its inauguration)... located ON THE EARTH, so yes, they are about to "head back down... TO it [FOR its commencing]"...
--the "HAVING BEEN INVITED" part speaks of the "INVITATION" that has been going on throughout the trib years ON THE EARTH, done by the "inviters" (I already spelled that out in past posts--those "INVITERS" are "on the earth" in/during/within the trib yrs... they are "INVITING" TO the earthly MK age / "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [also "on the earth, i.e. the earthly MK age]... this pertains to "the invited 'GUESTS [PLURAL]'"--"those [plural] having been INVITED [perfect tense]" Rev19:9)...
--"the MARRIAGE" itself (Rev19:7) is DISTINCT, and pertains to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... and for that, the text just says, "[the marriage] CAME" (see below) and "[bride/wife] PREPARED" (see below):
1) "CAME" - this same word is used HERE: Matthew 12:42 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) Matt12:42 "[re: queen of the south] she CAME" (a long time before this thing that was now being SAID of her, in this text);
2) "PREPARED" - this same word is used here: Greek Concordance: ἡτοίμασεν (hētoimasen) -- 3 Occurrences (biblehub.com) , one example: 1Cor2:9 - "has not entered into heart of man, what God PREPARED for those loving Him." (How long before this was said in 1Cor2, had He "PREPARED"?)
My contention is that "the MARRIAGE" itself has taken place IN HEAVEN, by this point (pertaining solely to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"), and now they are headed back down to the earth FOR "the marriage FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (the earthly MK, its inauguration... WHERE those [plural] "having been INVITED" [throughout the earthly TRIB yrs], i.e. "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" [etc], are still-located / have never "lifted off" from, and don't ever, because "Rapture" does not pertain to THOSE saints: both OT saints [now 'resurrected' FOR it] and Trib saints [whether having DIED in the trib and now 'resurrected' FOR it; or are 'still-living' like Dan12:12's "BLESSED" and about 8 parallel passages to this, as I've said])
"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" (not saying this is the fist time ppl are "resurrected," b/c the 2W were already resurrected back at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" at a point in time DISTINCT from when all others are resurrected... and they already "ascended up into Heaven" too, prior to this point in the chronology being referenced now [Rev19]);
--"the resurrection OF LIFE" (first in quality--but 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER [/RANK]" (a word, "RANK," not implying ONLY ONE remaining at one singular point in time); same for where James says, "a KIND of firstfruit" / "a CERTAIN firstfruit" (meaning, there is more that ONE KIND--I've pointed out the TWO mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23, and that "the 144,000" [in Rev14:4 wording] corresponds with [the wording of] the SECOND of these TWO mentions of "FF" in Lev23, being in v.17 [re: the "WHEAT" harvest], where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [and where I've said, "WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT harvest"]
I've pointed out 1Cor12:12, "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ" (Paul points this out over and over and over, in many different ways)... see also, Eph5 - "[...] even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."... Then see also Gen2:22 - "And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him." (This took place ON THE SIXTH DAY, not "the 7th [/the LAST] day" [pertaining to others, as both Job and Martha acknowledged and KNEW WELL (it was NO "MYSTERY" to them!)].)
...doubt I can convince you...
= )
Have a great day. Peace out.
I've said (over and over) "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" *is* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or at the very least, its inauguration)... located ON THE EARTH, so yes, they are about to "head back down... TO it [FOR its commencing]"...
--the "HAVING BEEN INVITED" part speaks of the "INVITATION" that has been going on throughout the trib years ON THE EARTH, done by the "inviters" (I already spelled that out in past posts--those "INVITERS" are "on the earth" in/during/within the trib yrs... they are "INVITING" TO the earthly MK age / "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [also "on the earth, i.e. the earthly MK age]... this pertains to "the invited 'GUESTS [PLURAL]'"--"those [plural] having been INVITED [perfect tense]" Rev19:9)...
--"the MARRIAGE" itself (Rev19:7) is DISTINCT, and pertains to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... and for that, the text just says, "[the marriage] CAME" (see below) and "[bride/wife] PREPARED" (see below):
1) "CAME" - this same word is used HERE: Matthew 12:42 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) Matt12:42 "[re: queen of the south] she CAME" (a long time before this thing that was now being SAID of her, in this text);
2) "PREPARED" - this same word is used here: Greek Concordance: ἡτοίμασεν (hētoimasen) -- 3 Occurrences (biblehub.com) , one example: 1Cor2:9 - "has not entered into heart of man, what God PREPARED for those loving Him." (How long before this was said in 1Cor2, had He "PREPARED"?)
My contention is that "the MARRIAGE" itself has taken place IN HEAVEN, by this point (pertaining solely to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"), and now they are headed back down to the earth FOR "the marriage FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (the earthly MK, its inauguration... WHERE those [plural] "having been INVITED" [throughout the earthly TRIB yrs], i.e. "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" [etc], are still-located / have never "lifted off" from, and don't ever, because "Rapture" does not pertain to THOSE saints: both OT saints [now 'resurrected' FOR it] and Trib saints [whether having DIED in the trib and now 'resurrected' FOR it; or are 'still-living' like Dan12:12's "BLESSED" and about 8 parallel passages to this, as I've said])
"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" (not saying this is the fist time ppl are "resurrected," b/c the 2W were already resurrected back at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" at a point in time DISTINCT from when all others are resurrected... and they already "ascended up into Heaven" too, prior to this point in the chronology being referenced now [Rev19]);
--"the resurrection OF LIFE" (first in quality--but 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER [/RANK]" (a word, "RANK," not implying ONLY ONE remaining at one singular point in time); same for where James says, "a KIND of firstfruit" / "a CERTAIN firstfruit" (meaning, there is more that ONE KIND--I've pointed out the TWO mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23, and that "the 144,000" [in Rev14:4 wording] corresponds with [the wording of] the SECOND of these TWO mentions of "FF" in Lev23, being in v.17 [re: the "WHEAT" harvest], where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [and where I've said, "WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT harvest"]
I've pointed out 1Cor12:12, "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ" (Paul points this out over and over and over, in many different ways)... see also, Eph5 - "[...] even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."... Then see also Gen2:22 - "And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him." (This took place ON THE SIXTH DAY, not "the 7th [/the LAST] day" [pertaining to others, as both Job and Martha acknowledged and KNEW WELL (it was NO "MYSTERY" to them!)].)
...doubt I can convince you...
= )
Have a great day. Peace out.
They grab a scripture to prove their point, then sweep the rest under the rug or provide false apologetics in order to circumvent the truth. This seems to be the status quo. However, below is what is really happening:
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
Well, the thing about the "Acts 3" thing (which many ppl miss) is this, Peter is talking to "ye men of Israel" (yet unsaved persons) who are thinking, "duh, that weren't him [our Messiah], coz look, he's DEAD [and everything else we didn't like about him ]"... a ppl who were EXPECTING ONLY the "conquering KING" aspects of OT prophecy (re: Him), but who (Peter is saying) had OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED the "Suffering Servant" aspects of the OT prophecies (re: Him).
The "Amill-teachings" (not that FG2 is one) completely miss what Peter's point is, here, because they do not discern the TWO "RAISE" aspects being spoken of in this Acts 3 text (therefore they incorrectly think "David's throne" is now UP IN HEAVEN--no)... the one "RAISE" speaking of His earthly ministry BEFORE His death (that is, "raised" to a position of PROMINENCE); the other "RAISE" speaking of His being raised up FROM THE DEAD (AFTER the Cross/His Death).
Peter is simply saying, to them, what you've witnessed (or see evidence of) so far was the "Suffering Servant" aspects of OT prophecies regarding Him (SAME PERSON as who will fulfill the "conquering KING" aspects, which Paul later says, "which IN HIS TIMES [G2540] He shall [future tense] shew [openly manifest]... King of kings and Lord of lords" [<--a phrase used only elsewhere in Rev19, & Rev17 in reverse order]... and His "cut off" aspects of OT prophecies regarding Him (the things you "ye men of Israel" sitting before me now have OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED in your EXPECTATION [only] of the "conquering KING" aspects of OT prophecies...)
[back later to finish this thought... re: the "ALL THINGS" (the REST of the things)]
]"... a ppl who were EXPECTING ONLY the "conquering KING" aspects of OT prophecy (re: Him), but who (Peter is saying) had OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED the "Suffering Servant" aspects of the OT prophecies (re: Him).The "Amill-teachings" (not that FG2 is one) completely miss what Peter's point is, here, because they do not discern the TWO "RAISE" aspects being spoken of in this Acts 3 text (therefore they incorrectly think "David's throne" is now UP IN HEAVEN--no)... the one "RAISE" speaking of His earthly ministry BEFORE His death (that is, "raised" to a position of PROMINENCE); the other "RAISE" speaking of His being raised up FROM THE DEAD (AFTER the Cross/His Death).
Peter is simply saying, to them, what you've witnessed (or see evidence of) so far was the "Suffering Servant" aspects of OT prophecies regarding Him (SAME PERSON as who will fulfill the "conquering KING" aspects, which Paul later says, "which IN HIS TIMES [G2540] He shall [future tense] shew [openly manifest]... King of kings and Lord of lords" [<--a phrase used only elsewhere in Rev19, & Rev17 in reverse order]... and His "cut off" aspects of OT prophecies regarding Him (the things you "ye men of Israel" sitting before me now have OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED in your EXPECTATION [only] of the "conquering KING" aspects of OT prophecies...)
[back later to finish this thought... re: the "ALL THINGS" (the REST of the things)]
Blackpowderduelist said:
But this don't include coming back for a millinial reign and then a war and then going back to heaven. And then I guess coming back to earth as the new heaven descends to earth. This idea has Jesus a regular commuter between heaven and earth.
There's a whole lot of doubt about such an idea.
No one is restricting anything. What we are doing is rejecting opinions when they cannot be backed up with Scripture.
Irrelevant to Christ's Second Advent.
Again, irrelevant to end times.
But this don't include coming back for a millinial reign and then a war and then going back to heaven. And then I guess coming back to earth as the new heaven descends to earth. This idea has Jesus a regular commuter between heaven and earth.
There's a whole lot of doubt about such an idea.
No one is restricting anything. What we are doing is rejecting opinions when they cannot be backed up with Scripture.
Irrelevant to Christ's Second Advent.
Again, irrelevant to end times.