Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 17, 2021

Well, for the same reason that the word "U-turn" must be in the same sentence as His "descend" action, don't you know... (in order for a certain thing to be "true")

And Rev5:9's "hast redeemed US... out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation" said by persons wearing "stephanon/crowns" (that were said would be awarded "AT THAT DAY"--not the day of Paul's DEATH), said up in Heaven, is showing us the effects of [what happens next after] His "descend" and "the meeting of the Lord in the air"... and in a context where 5:4's "was found" indicates that a searching judgment has already taken place (just like this word is used in the latter parts of Acts re: Paul's being brought before their [human] "bema seat" judgment)... and in a context where the one on the throne in 4:3 "was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone"--the FIRST and the LAST stones that had been on the "breastpiece of judgment" per OT Scripture... i.e. like a courtroom scene, for example

)... and in view of what had been said (addressed to "the Church which is His body" that "know ye not that we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" [see also Rom16:20 again, "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"] and "the world shall be judged by you" 1Cor6:2-3[14], etc etc...

...more (MUCH more)... but I'm pressed for time...

cv5 · Feb 17, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Well, for the same reason that the word "U-turn" must be in the same sentence as His "descend" action, don't you know... (in order for a certain thing to be "true")

And Rev5:9's "hast redeemed US... out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation" said by persons wearing "stephanon/crowns" (that were said would be awarded "AT THAT DAY"--not the day of Paul's DEATH), said up in Heaven, is showing us the effects of [what happens next after] His "descend" and "the meeting of the Lord in the air"... and in a context where 5:4's "was found" indicates that a searching judgment has already taken place (just like this word is used in the latter parts of Acts re: Paul's being brought before their [human] "bema seat" judgment)... and in a context where the one on the throne in 4:3 "was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone"--the FIRST and the LAST stones that had been on the "breastpiece of judgment" per OT Scripture... i.e. like a courtroom scene, for example

)... and in view of what had been said (addressed to "the Church which is His body" that "know ye not that we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" [see also Rom16:20 again, "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"] and "the world shall be judged by you" 1Cor6:2-3[14], etc etc...

...more (MUCH more)... but I'm pressed for time...

My dear friend your posts drive me to tears. Of joy!

cv5 · Feb 17, 2021

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Chapters 10 through 14 are parenthesis summary chapters. They are the gap between the sixth and seventh trumpet. The hepatic gap between the sixth and seventh bowls is a couple of verses.

Ahwatukee · Feb 17, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I don't know why people have a problem, many using the word 'U-Turn' in an attempt to discredit the Lord's promise. For in John 14:1-3 He said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He was going to come back and get us and take us back to those places in the Father's house. Would this not require descending to earths atmosphere, gathering the dead and the living in Christ and then returning to the Father's house? So, what is their problem with Jesus coming to get us and then taking us back?

cv5 · Feb 17, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

I fear that the problem is the same problem the Pharisees had with Jesus. The concept of a gracious merciful Jesus coming to take his bride away OUT OF the time and place of wrath upon the earth is repulsive. Why in the world should grace and mercy be repulsive???....pretty shocking really.

Absolutely · Feb 17, 2021

Lucy-Pevensie said:

The gathering in rev 14 has Jesus sitting on a cloud.
Rev 19 is completely different. It is the second coming.

No way the rapture has ANY similarity to rev 19.

( Not saying rev 14 is the rapture...just a gathering,but it is very much like the rapture...mat 25 is the bride gathered rev 14 is most likely the Jew gathered)

Honestly...you can not see it?????

It is like a billboard...a giant billboard.

Absolutely · Feb 17, 2021

Runningman said:

Uh,no Jesus used the flood dynamic. And he used it PREFLOOD.( Before he destroyed)
Weird that you think destroying the planet has nothing to do with Judgement.

The flood is not judgement????

You are saying the flood is not judgment?

Do you also think judging sodom and destroying it has nothing to do with Judgement?

FreeGrace2 · Feb 17, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Here's the deal. If Jesus comes from heaven to the clouds of the earth's atmosphere, gathers up all the saints, and returns to heaven with them, that is clearly a U-turn. He comes to earth, and goes right back to heaven.

Maybe you don't like the term, but the CONCEPT is obvious.

Here's a thought to consider: He was speaking of the New Jerusalem, which WILL come down from heaven to the new earth. And those who belong to Him will live there.

Problem solved.

Ahwatukee · Feb 17, 2021

cv5 said:

Agreed!

Though salvation and eternal life are definitely what we are all thankful for and looking for our transformation from mortal to immortal, being removed from the earth prior to God's wrath is also apart of God's grace and mercy for those who believe in His Son.

Before Jesus told us about going to the Father's house to prepare places for us He said, 'Don't let your hearts be troubled.' Likewise, after Paul gave a detailed account of the resurrection and the living being changed and caught up he said, "Therefore, comfort each other with these words." Likewise, when writing to Titus, Paul referred to the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ as 'The Blessed Hope." All that said, if the Lord was going to put His church/bride through His wrath (seals, trumpets and bowl judgments) then how could our hearts not be troubled. Believers would also not have anything to comfort each other about, nor would it be a blessed hope. For they would have the Lord punishing the righteous right along with the wicked and we know from the information regarding Noah and Abraham and Lot, that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, which is what would be happening if the Lord gathered His church after His wrath. Then they give the excuse that the church is going to be protected, yet I have not seen so much as even one scripture which mentions the church within the narrative of God's wrath, much less anything stating that the church is protected.

I wish that they could understand fully who we are and what we have received as believers in Christ. How can we be reconciled to God, yet still go through His wrath? They don't understand the difference between the common trials and tribulations that come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's unprecedented wrath to come. One of the major problems is that they do not understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

I thank God that He does not punish the righteous with the wicked! For the sake of the argument, even if God did protect believers during the time of His wrath, what kind of world would we be living in? It be a chaotic mess, with billions of people killed world-wide and all kinds of natural and unnatural disasters, demonic beings tormenting the inhabitants and after that killing a third of them, the sun scorching and searing people with intense heat. And that is just a few off the top of my head.

Ahwatukee · Feb 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

A U-Turn is correct. And that is exactly what He is going to do. But many people who are post tribbers attempt to make that sound stupid. Jesus will basically appear in the atmosphere, raise the dead believers from the on-set of the church until that time. Then the living believers will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them. At that point the entire church from beginning to end, will be present in the air with the Lord. Where at which time, as promised, He will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

No! Problem not solved. All you are doing is misapplying scripture to fit your belief.

The problem with your conclusion is that, Jesus was referring to His Father's house which would be heaven. And contrary to popular belief, Jesus did not say that those rooms were in the New Jerusalem, but in His Father's house which is in heaven where Jesus went.

The other problem is that, the New Jerusalem doesn't come down out of heaven until after millennial kingdom and after the great white throne judgment, which would mean that the Lord would not be gathering His church until after the great white throne judgment. It would also mean that you are ignoring the fact that the church/bride is seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb during the tribulation period. It also shows the church following the Lord out of heaven when He returns to the earth to end the age. Your chronological timing of events is all messed up.

The appearing of the Lord to gather the church is an imminent event, which will take place like at thief in the night, which means that nothing has to take place prior to that event. Therefore, if you have the Lord gathering His church when He returns to the earth to end the age, there would be every sign in the world pointing to when the Lord would return. If I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a road map, knowing that the Lord could not return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out. Where in regards to it being imminent like a thief in the night, it is always about to take place, just like a thief. And like the parable, since we don't know at what time a thief would come to break in, then we need to always be watching and ready so that He doesn't take us by surprise.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 17, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Why aren't there any verses that clearly indicate that Jesus resurrects/raptures those who belong to Him and then takes them back up to heaven. That would put all this discussion to rest.

The only way to conclude that Jesus returns to heaven is from conjecture. There is nothing clear about it.

otoh, we have Acts 3:21, which the Analytical Greek Lexicon indicates the meaning of 'dechomai' is "to receive and retain, contain" for that verse specifically.

Someone's going to have to prove that lexicon is in error before I'll believe a scenario that can't be found clearly in Scripture.

Here's how a number of translations treat Acts 3:21-

Berean Study Bible
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

Amplified Bible
whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Contemporary English Version
But Jesus must stay in heaven until God makes all things new, just as his holy prophets promised long ago.

Good News Translation
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for all things to be made new, as God announced through his holy prophets of long ago.

International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

However, even if one prefers all the other translations:

"English Standard Version
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago."

Note the exact wording "must receive UNTIL the time...". Sure doesn't sound like Jesus "coming and going" until the times for restoration.

What Jesus said in John 14 is easily understood to be referring to the New Jerusalem, which will come down from heaven. So there's nothing in John 14 that demands a pre-trib rapture, or a "U-turn" maneuver.

We are comforted by what's waiting for us. That's what.

You don't think an immortal body and living with Christ ruling isn't a blessed hope and VERY comforting to think about??

All this is dismissed by the simple fact that God judged Egypt with 10 horrible plagues, yet none in Goshen (a part of Egypt) experienced any of the plagues.

Just remember: "with God, everything is possible". Mark 14:36

How about Rev 3:10? That's clear enough. And remember that mention of the church forms the bookends for the entire book.

Rev 1-
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

It seems mighty odd to me that the first 3 chapters is directed to the churches, and in the final chapter, we are reminded of WHOM the epistle was written TO; the churches.

If the church won't go through the Tribulation, then WHY WHY WHY would John make such emphasis about and to the churches?

So we're rather dumb about who we are and what we have received as believers in Christ? When there is a verse that SAYS that Jesus remains in heaven UNTIL the times of restoration? When there are NO verses at all about Jesus taking resurrected/raptured saints back up to heaven?

Are you kidding us?

Easily. By His omnipotent protection. Just like the Jews in Egypt.

Please don't level such condescensions at those you disagree with; as if y'all are somehow smarter than the rest of us.

The post-trib view has evidence of it, as I've noted above, unlike the pre-trib view..

Guojing · Feb 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

I have already explained to you exactly when Israel will finally received forgiveness of all their sins.

That will happen when the New Covenant is implemented with them, when they finally acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God (John 20:31).

If Acts 3:19-21 is not enough, there is Hebrews 8:8-12, and Romans 11:25-27.

Jesus was speaking only to Israel in his first coming (Matthew 15:24, Ephesians 2:11-12), you cannot take salvation verses in John and apply them directly to the Body of Christ.

cv5 · Feb 17, 2021

Runningman said:

It's not THE judgment day (ecplipsed by TDOTL) it is A judgment day. The second greatest judgment day in all of history. The plagues upon Egypt were a judgment, the fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah were a judgment.

God clearly states that the conquest of Canaan was a judgment. Specified 400 years earlier by God Himself.

Patterns my dear friend patterns. Think in terms of themes and patterns it will help.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 17, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, "U-turn" is a correct way to view the pre-trib rapture. But the whole idea is INcorrect, since there is NO mention of it in Scripture.

you're so confident of your belief. So where does the Bible make this clear?

No, not stupid, just incorrect. Wrong. No evidence.

There is nothing in John 14 to make this conclusion. It is merely a construct. What Jesus was referring to was the New Jerusalem, which begins IN heaven, and then comes down to earth. Rev 21.

Uh, no. My belief fits Scripture. Unlike your belief. All you've got is a construct to fit your belief.

No, He was referring to the New Jerusalem. Does the word "new" mean anything to you? It does to me.

Because Jesus wasn't specific AT ALL. So your argument here is specious.

No, the actual problem is that He NEVER said He would be bringing saints back up to heaven. He was general enough to allow easily for the New Jerusalem as the dwelling He was discussing.

Actually not true. Are you referring to Rev 19?

Well, all the dead saints up to the Second Advent are IN heaven, and they WILL accompany Him back to earth. So no problem.

The apostle Paul would strongly disagree with you on that idea.

2 Thess 2-
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Red words refer to the Second Advent.
Blue words refer to the rapture. Note the order here. One before the other. We will be gathered AT the Second Advent.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Red words refer to the Second Advent.
Blue words refer to the Tribulation, and anticrhist. So, "that day" refers to "coming of our Lord" in v.1.

Clearly the gathering of believers is when the Second Advent occurs, and AFTER the "rebellion" occurs.

Not really. What did Jesus teach about His return at the Second Advent?

Mark 13:32 - “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Notice that Jesus didn't mention a specific date, or time. He was specifically not giving away the exact time He would return. So when the tribulation begins, we still won't know the specific date, or hour of the day.

And that wouldn't give you ANY information as to the date, or hour of the day/night.

There is clear Scripture which REFUTES a U-turn journey;
Acts 3:21, 2 Thess 2:1-3, Rev 20:5 - "first resurrection".

Please don't try to argue about the "first resurrection" being divided up into segments.

Acts 3:21 doesn't allow for Jesus to leave heaven until the times of restoration. The Trib is not among those times of restoration.
2 Thess 2:1-3 gives us the order of the Second Advent and the gathering (rapture, if you will).
Rev 20:5 clearly places the first resurrection AFTER the tribulation.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 17, 2021

Guojing said:

The Bible has already explained it. When a person places their full trust alone in Christ's work on the cross alone for salvation.

The NC has already been implemented.

Wanna bet? Of course I can. Paul's extraordinary evangelistic work all across the known world was based on the OT Scriptures.

We know this from His own testimony-
Acts 26:22 - But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

And we have the testimony of the Bereans:
Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

The only Scriptures they had was the OT.

Guojing · Feb 17, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Jesus has not gone to the cross yet in John 10, so you are anticipating revelation in your first point.

John 20:31, which is post cross, even tells us what the entire book of John was for and how Israel may get eternal life, nothing about Israel putting their faith in the cross alone for salvation.

For your 2nd point, Israel the nation has currently fallen so the NC cannot be implemented already (Romans 11:11), unless you are believing that the Body of Christ has replaced the nation Israel.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 17, 2021

cv5 said:

Well, the following is something else I find interesting, along these same lines ^ ...

Consider:

Speaking of Acts 3:21's reference to "by [means of] the mouth of the prophets"... these are the only references (that I can see) to that particular phrase (quoted below)... but note, how interesting, the contexts of those few references to it:

Zechariah 8:9 -

Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

Luke 1:70 -

[said in the context surrounding the birth of John the Baptist, but just following the context of "Mary abode with her about three months..." and what Elisabeth said in vv.43-45 and what Mary said in vv.46-56 (re: Jesus [recall also: 'the temple of His body' Jn2:21])]

As he spake by [means of] the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began [/from the age]:

Acts 3:18 -

But those things, which God before had shewed by [means of] the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

[see 1Pet1:11 - '[testifying beforehand of] the sufferings of Christ...']

Acts 3:21 -

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution/restoration of all things of which God spoke by [means of] the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began [/from the age].

[see 1Pet1:11 - '... and the glories after these [meta tauta].' - blb ('meta tauta'--recall also said in the context of the introduction of the "future" section of "[The] Revelation"--FOLLOWING "the things WHICH ARE" which things are NOT said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" as are said must, of the "future" aspects--1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 [2x]--THIS is where I believe "the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH God SPOKE BY [MEANS OF] THE MOUTH OF..." commences, rather than commencing at the END of the trib yrs in Rev19, like when the MK is starting)]

... very interesting...

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 17, 2021

The "A STANDING [STASIS / STASIN]" of Heb9:8-9a ('the tabernacle [the one in the wilderness] yet having A STANDING [STASIS / STASIN], which is A PARABLE for the present time")...

...considered alongside (what the Spirit wrote via Paul's pen, in) 2Th2:3's "APO STASIS / APO STASIA" [an 'AWAY-FROM STANDING' or 'Departure' (and a DEFINITE ONE)] (same word, "apostasis=apostasia")...

...makes the message clear enough, in that text (and context), as I see it.

cv5 · Feb 17, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Marvelous. I am going to sleep well tonight being comforted by these words my friend.
Thank you.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 17, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

... except, there WILL BE "believers [/saints]" in / during / within the trib years (who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... but still, they will be present on the earth DURING that future, specific, limited time period we call "the tribulation period" [seals/trumpets/vials]),...

...and some of them will even be "still-living" upon His return to the earth in Rev19 (like in Dan12:12 and a number of other "BLESSED" passages speaking of this very thing--Matt25:31-34, for example), and these will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children, never having "lifted off" the earth[!]... (ex: I believe Dan7:22b[27]/Rev20:4a speak of these "still-living" saints at that point in time)

[1Thess1:10 and 5:9 are not directed [/directly-applicable] to them--a matter of "correctly apportioning the word of truth"]

Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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