Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Ahwatukee]

Exactly
And what are they going to do with examples where it is symbolic and literal.

The 3 crosses
The 3 lambs sacrificed on passover
The veil rent
....and a hundred more that are both literal and symbolic.

It is not one dimensional.

That is the dynamic of revelation. It is multifaceted truth....again not one dimensional.

It is sadly obvious that many do not understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Nor do they have discernment of what should be interpreted as literal vs. symbolic.

Seven stars in the Lord's right hand, those are symbolic representing the pastors of the churches

Seven lampstands are symbolic representing the seven churches

A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars, that's symbolic.

A great dragon with seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns, now that's symbolic.

An angel opening the Abyss and letting out demonic beings representing locusts, is not symbolic but a literal event.

A third of the earth and trees being burned up, is not symbolic but literal

Something like a huge mountain all on fire coming through the earths atmosphere and hitting in the ocean and destroying a third of the of creatures in the sea and a third of the ships, is not symbolic.

The sun given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth, searing them with intense heat, that's not symbolic.

And the wrong interpretations go on and on and on .........

I keep saying it: People are in for a big surprise regarding these coming events of wrath!

 

[Runningman]

It is not honest to think noah and lot were delivered post judgement.
That is bizarre.

Especially when Jesus told you "BEFORE THE FLOOD."
Then immediately say ”one taken/ left" then immediately say watch and be ready...then immediately say 5 wise virgins were taken by the groom in peacetime environment with no possibility of billions of horses.
MOST dishonest to omit truth.
Yes GOOD read would definitely help you.

I don't reply to you much because I don't really want to argue with you. For one, you have misread what the Bible says and resist whenever anyone says otherwise. But I'll try again.

For example, the flood is not the judgement of God. The flood isn't God's wrath either. The great tribulation isn't God's wrath. The return of Christ isn't God's wrath.

If you'll read carefully, Genesis 6:5-8 it says nothing about wrath or judgement. It says it was "God's grief" that He decided to use a great flood to wipe out humanity. In the same way, the return of Christ is like the days of Noah. Wickedness on the earth will reach a climax during the great tribulation and God will send Jesus and the angels to kill the wicked and save the righteous.

God's wrath is eternal damnation in hell.

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 5:9
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Understand God's wrath a little better now? Hint: it isn't the flood, or tribulation, or rapture. It's post-judgement hellfire.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is what we know: The faithless Antediluvians who had zero evidence to believe Noah "knew not until" they were taken away, which means they were totally taken by surprise.

Now, which of the "left behind" folks are goingto be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by

Let me see if I can finish your sentence in the way you are intending (... something like...)

"Now, which of the 'left behind' folks are going to be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by [blatant evidences of people having previously 'disappeared' !!?? (seven years earlier)]" (<--is that CLOSE to what you were intending to convey??)

I did say I had already made a post about that (I don't want to go through typing all that out again... maybe I can find that post later, but I'll post the gist of it here):

--recall, I just said in that other post in this thread, (following "our Rapture") THEN 2Th2:10-12 will come into play - "God shall SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..."

--recall, I've said... much of "Christendom" (the segment that "come in His name, but who are not actually saved/believers/trusting-in-Christ-for-salvation") will still be on the earth following "our Rapture"... many of these will tend to not want to believe "what just happened" was "Rapture [of the believers]," but SOMETHING ELSE (coz, duh, *they themselves [professed Christians]* are still here! *Evidence* to themselves that surely it was NOT THAT ['RAPTURE'], that "just happened," but rather SOMETHING ELSE... which they will *think* they have some biblical-backing for [explanation]... but *really* it was that they WERE NOT SAVED [their not having trusted in Christ for salvation], even though they *think* their massive pile of "good works" has merited it to them and they they ARE Christians)

--recall, I've said that the Olivet Discourse [except for about 12 verses in Lk21:12-24 re: 70ad events] are all about what happens FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (this includes the parallels I've pointed out, like the following passage I will quote below):

Luke 12:35-48 - [parts being PARALLEL to Matt24 near the passage under present discussion]
[all FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]
(Matthew 24:36-51; Mark 13:32-37)

35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; [<--see my post about the "LAMPS LIT" taking place for the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period, i.e. for the "NIGHT WATCHES"] 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding [RETURN FROM the wedding, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom]; [so] that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [G347--the MEAL (<--see the parallels I've listed for this, like Matt8:11, etc)], and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. [<--corresponding to the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages speaking of this point in the chronology--His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age to commence--these being "still-living" mortals (saints only!) who will ENTER it / that "MK-age"]

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


--more to say, but I need to close for now... (perhaps I can try to find that other post I was talking about)



This ^ is just a part of my explanation regarding your Q asking, "which of the 'left behind' folks are going to be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by [blatant evidences of people having previously 'disappeared' !!?? (if you meant that)]" -- esp the fact that it will be a time of GREAT DECEPTION (with SEAL #1 [note: 'bow' often representing 'DECEPTION'] having occurred at the START of this time-period [the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period], parallel Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]" aka "the man of sin" "whose COMING is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness unto them who..." along with the fact that "God shall SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..." etc etc...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Understand God's wrath a little better now? Hint: it isn't the flood, or tribulation, or rapture. It's post-judgement hellfire.

Did you see my posts covering:

--Lk21:23,20 "and WRATH upon this people" re: the 70ad events [-section];

--Matt22:7 [re: the events surrounding 70ad] "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [<--see also what Jesus said on the very day that the "69 Weeks [total]" were concluded: Luke 19:41-44, parallel to these passages of Matt22:7 and Lk21:23,20]


[then, far-future]

--Ezek38:18-19 ("wrath" words), 39:7... (which "war" I've said I believe parallels the "SEAL 2 WARS" early-ish in the trib, parallel the wording in Gen45:1,6), like "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" ( = SEALS) refer to "wars"

--Lam2:3-4 (with "wrath" words surrounding) being parallel to the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a (at the START of the trib yrs, i.e. SEAL #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4/Mk13:5)]" with many more birth PANGS following on from this INITIAL one...)




As to the first two entries, above, do you NOT believe "wrath" applied in those 70ad events (even though it clearly states this)?? Just wondering.


[besides that, Satan "having great wrath" 1260 days before the end /-His Second Coming to the earth, still qualifies as "the wrath coming" (1Th1:10 and 1Th5:8-10) BECAUSE those passages do not SPECIFY "whose wrath" in particular--though I do believe ALL of the trib yrs qualify as "judgments" and "wrath of God" b/c of Who's in ultimate control of that time-period (like in Hab1:6,12), and that Jesus will then/at that time "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13 / Rev5:6 / (by His opening the FIRST SEAL) etc etc...]

 

[cv5]

Let me see if I can finish your sentence in the way you are intending (... something like...)

"Now, which of the 'left behind' folks are going to be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by [blatant evidences of people having previously 'disappeared' !!?? (seven years earlier)]" (<--is that CLOSE to what you were intending to convey??)

I did say I had already made a post about that (I don't want to go through typing all that out again... maybe I can find that post later, but I'll post the gist of it here):

--recall, I just said in that other post in this thread, (following "our Rapture") THEN 2Th2:10-12 will come into play - "God shall SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..."

--recall, I've said... much of "Christendom" (the segment that "come in His name, but who are not actually saved/believers/trusting-in-Christ-for-salvation") will still be on the earth following "our Rapture"... many of these will tend to not want to believe "what just happened" was "Rapture [of the believers]," but SOMETHING ELSE (coz, duh, *they themselves [professed Christians]* are still here! *Evidence* to themselves that surely it was NOT THAT ['RAPTURE'], that "just happened," but rather SOMETHING ELSE... which they will *think* they have some biblical-backing for [explanation]... but *really* it was that they WERE NOT SAVED [their not having trusted in Christ for salvation], even though they *think* their massive pile of "good works" has merited it to them and they they ARE Christians)

--recall, I've said that the Olivet Discourse [except for about 12 verses in Lk21:12-24 re: 70ad events] are all about what happens FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (this includes the parallels I've pointed out, like the following passage I will quote below):

Luke 12:35-48 - [parts being PARALLEL to Matt24 near the passage under present discussion]
[all FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]
(Matthew 24:36-51; Mark 13:32-37)

35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; [<--see my post about the "LAMPS LIT" taking place for the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period, i.e. for the "NIGHT WATCHES"] 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding [RETURN FROM the wedding, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom]; [so] that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [G347--the MEAL (<--see the parallels I've listed for this, like Matt8:11, etc)], and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. [<--corresponding to the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages speaking of this point in the chronology--His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age to commence--these being "still-living" mortals (saints only!) who will ENTER it / that "MK-age"]

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


--more to say, but I need to close for now... (perhaps I can try to find that other post I was talking about)



This ^ is just a part of my explanation regarding your Q asking, "which of the 'left behind' folks are going to be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by [blatant evidences of people having previously 'disappeared' !!?? (if you meant that)]" -- esp the fact that it will be a time of GREAT DECEPTION (with SEAL #1 [note: 'bow' often representing 'DECEPTION'] having occurred at the START of this time-period [the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period], parallel Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]" aka "the man of sin" "whose COMING is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness unto them who..." along with the fact that "God shall SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..." etc etc...

If these people cannot comprehend that Satanic lies can overwhelm THE UNSAVED of the truth and fact of the Rapture.......they had better think again. The Bible is very clear on this matter.

Indeed the Bible is factual clear and truthful to us the redeemed NOW but it isn't to the unsaved. So it is now so it shall be then.

 

[cv5]

....and yes rev 19 has a gathering IN HEAVEN to the horses prepared for the saints to follow Jesus to earth.

A gathering OF SAINTS ALREADY IN HEAVEN towards the end of the gt ....Or right at the end.

Angels gather as declared in Mat 24 and Luke 13.

BTW...the "ends of earth" is the heavens.

Nothing saying that Jesus gathers from earth anything postrib.....nothing at all there.

Rev 19:14
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

Rev 17:14
“These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Jude 1
Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

 

[ewq1938]

And the fact all die or take the mark

That's an error not a fact. Paul told us some Christians will survive and that's the end of the topic. Anything that contradicts what Paul taught is a false teaching.

And that the gathering of rev 14 somehow in your bible is BEFORE the dead in Christ are risen in the rapture.

The resurrection happens before the events of Revelation 14. "the dead in Christ rise first" is something Paul also taught.

 

[ewq1938]

Oil is the game changer. Nothing else was different in the parable. Those with more oil went...those lacking stayed.


.

lol...the marriage doesn't happen before the Great Tribulation. It happens after it is over and His enemies are defeated. That's the proper time to celebrate and conduct a marriage. We see this in Revelation 19 where the marriage happens before the battle of Armageddon and that battle only takes place after the Great Tribulation has ended. This is post trib, the only place Paul and Christ places the timing of the rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

You do realize that the rapture could occur at any moment?

That's wrong. Paul addressed that false idea here:


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God!

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

 

[ewq1938]

Indeed Enoch was not post-flood or mid-food he was pre-flood.
The tradition is that he was was born on Pentecost and was raptured on his birthday.

And the flood is the wrath of Christ at the second coming which further proves a post-trib rapture.

The rapture happens AFTER the wrath of Satan and his persecutions and tribulations against Christians not before it. The rapture only happens BEFORE the wrath of God at the second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

The antediluvians were not taken by surprise.

That contradicts what Christ said because he told us they were surprised:

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat_24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

They were carrying on with their normal lives, eating and drinking and marrying and knew NOT until the flood came. Always stick to what the bible says. If something you believge in contradicts the bible then toss it away. That6s the only way to progress in biblical understanding.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That's wrong. Paul addressed that false idea here:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

V.2's "[purporting] that the day of the Lord *is present* [PERFECT indicative]" is referring to "the DOTL" an EARTHLY-located time-period.

So that, v.3a's "that day" is referring TO THAT ^ .



[However, v.1 is not speaking of THAT "earthly-located time-period". But a DISTINCT ITEM: a reference to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--completely distinct!]






Paul is telling them NOT to be persuaded by anyone telling them "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT".

It wasn't. And he tells WHY.



[many ppl completely misconstrue what Paul is conveying here, by their CONFLATING of the Subject of v.1 with that of the Subject of v.2... but what Paul is doing here is confirming the SEQUENCE... how ONE ITEM *relates* time-wise to the OTHER ITEM (via his wording in v.3)]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Mat 24
" ...from one end of HEAVEN to the other.."

Gathering in heaven by angels. Not from earth....not by Jesus.

Truly a pretrib rapture

Truly not. The word "heaven" is frequently used for earth's atmosphere. No one is gathered in heaven.

Apparently you haven't read all the so-called rapture verses. 1 Cor 15:52 says nothing about heaven.
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

OK, v.16 says that Jesus "will come down FROM heaven". That means He LEAVES heaven.
v.17 says those "who are still alive and are left (that means still ON earth) will be caught up "in the clouds" (of the earth) to meet the Lord (who left heaven) to meet the Lord".

Why haven't you provided any verse about the Lord's necessary u-turn back to heaven? Because the pre-trib theory has Jesus taking believers up to heaven.

With that verse to support your theory, you have nothing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What a blatant untruth. Of course I have. I point out in EVERY such verse that there is NO mention of a U-turn back to heaven.

And NONE of the pre-tribbers (of which I was one) can provide any U-turn verse.

The martyrs are not allowed from under the altar in heaven.
Then.....
The innumerable number are martyrs and are before the throne in heaven.

The ones under the altar are told "... Till your number is complete"

That alone refutes any hope you have to see the church beaten and whipped by God.

Still waiting for your U-turn verse. Where is it?

Doesn't exist, because it doesn't happen.

 

[cv5]

V.2's "[purporting] that the day of the Lord *is present* [PERFECT indicative]" is referring to "the DOTL" an EARTHLY-located time-period.

So that, v.3a's "that day" is referring TO THAT ^ .



[However, v.1 is not speaking of THAT "earthly-located time-period". But a DISTINCT ITEM: a reference to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--completely distinct!]






Paul is telling them NOT to be persuaded by anyone telling them "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT".

It wasn't. And he tells WHY.



[many ppl completely misconstrue what Paul is conveying here, by their CONFLATING of the Subject of v.1 with that of the Subject of v.2... but what Paul is doing here is confirming the SEQUENCE... how ONE ITEM *relates* time-wise to the OTHER ITEM (via his wording in v.3)]

I don't see how anyone can be confused about these verses. To paraphrase Paul:
"Don't you worry and don't be deceived Thessalonians. Our wonderful Lord Jesus Messiah is coming to gather us together to Himself and take us away before TDOTL. And just to prove my point let me tell you what must happen first. Okay see....it hasn't happened yet! You did not miss the Rapture!"

2 Thess 2:1-3
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

[FreeGrace2]

""..God will have "gleaned" all the unstable, unfaithful, or disobedient believers from the earth through the work of the Tribulation. So only the faithful believers will be left, who won't take the mark, but rather will die the martyr's death.""

Lol
You just proved all believers die in the gt.

Nobody left to rapture posttrib.

Too funny

Your failed understanding of what I posted is "too funny". The Bible very clearly indicates that there will be living believers when Jesus comes back. 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4.

btw, haven't you seen the ORDER in 2 Thess 2:1-3?
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The red words refer to the Second Advent.
The blue words refer to the rapture of living believers.
The green words refers to the Second Advent.
The purple words refers to the Tribulation.

The math is very easy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, apparently you don't discern the difference between experiencing God's wrath and being on when God pours out His wrath.

The above makes no sense.

I've got to agree with you. I'd have to see my original post, for context.

* You are here
* Church gathered and take back to the Father's house
* God wrath begins, antichrist establishes a seven year covenant with Israel
* The covenant is broken in the middle of the seven and the abomination set up in the temple
* At the end of that last 3 1/2 years, the Lord returns with the church following behind riding on white horses
* Beast and false prophet cast alive into the lake of fire
* Satan is seize and thrown into and locked up in the Abyss for during Christ's thousand year reign
* Great tribulation saints are resurrected and rule with Christ during the thousand years
* Millennial kingdom
* Satan released at the end of the millennial kingdom for one last rebelion
* Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will be
* Great white throne judgment (judgment of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history)
* new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem

That is the chronological order of events as listed in Revelation

Well, your first point has NO evidence in Scripture; that Jesus takes believers back up to heaven. All that is presumption.

The 4th point is correct as far as all the previously dead believers who are in heaven with Jesus. They accompany Jesus to earth. That is exactly what 1 Thess 4 says.

7th point is in error. They aren't resurrected "during the 1,000 years". They are in the FIRST resurrection (Rev 20:5) which occurs at the end of the Trib when Jesus comes to earth.

There are NO 2 first resurrections. That doesn't make sense.

Yes, I agree. Let's NOT confuse the issue. Jesus Christ comes back to earth ONCE more. It's called the SECOND Advent, or SECOND Coming. And that will happen at the end of the Tribulation. It will be the end of the Trib because Jesus ends it himself.

"once more" doesn't cut it. Jesus has 2 comings; First advent and Second advent. Go ahead and count them. The First advent was His birth and life on earth. The Second advent is when He returns again.

The order is given in 2 Thess 2. The order is His coming to earth and "our being gathered to Him". The context is quite clear:
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The red words refer to the Second Advent.
The blue words refer to the rapture of the church, which clearly occurs during the Second Advent.
The green words refer to the Tribulation.

The way you framed your post, the following, in color, appears to be Your quote, but it's from one of my posts:

I never said the "church cannot be gathered". Of course it will. When He comes at the Second Advent, with all the dead saints from heaven. Matt 24 says exactly that.
I thought you are a pre-tribber.

But Acts 3:21 is clear in the Greek. In fact, a number of English translations have "remain in heaven" instead of "receive".

The Greek word is dechomai.

From https://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/word_studies/greek/dechomai.pdf
a. to receive
Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised (page 88):

1. to receive into and retain, contain
2. met. To receive by the hearing, learn, acquire a knowledge of
3. to receive, admit, grant access to, receive kindly, welcome
4. to receive in hospitality, entertain
5. to bear with, bear patiently
6. met. To receive, approve, assent to
7. to admit and by implication to embrace, follow

I have this lexicon, but the original, not the "revised". And "dechomai" is found on page 88 in my book. What this website didn't include, but is in my lexicon, is that the meaning found in 2. is associated with Acts 3:21.

So I have it on scholarly authority what Acts 3:21 is saying. It is saying that Jesus STAYS/REMAINS in heaven until the time of restoration.

Then prove it with Scripture. You need evidence from the Bible, not just a bunch of opinons from a bunch of people. I was raised believing in a pre-trib rapture, but when I actually began to study like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, I found that there is NO evidence of any U-turn in the Bible.


Opinion. Give me Scripture please.

Please be careful when you frame your posts. Everything in red came from my post, but appears to have come from you.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The secret rapture won't be secret after it happens buddy believe it.

Paul says when Jesus comes in the clouds, the dead are going to wake up at the sound of God blowing His trumpet (Zechariah 9:14 KJV), the sound of His divine shout (Psalms 50:1-5 KJV), and the sound of the voice of the Archangel (John 5:27-28 KJV).

Seriously, how can anyone conclude that an event which is described by words contained in what is considered "the loudest verse in the entire Bible" is supposed to be "secret"?

 

[Phoneman-777]

You do realize that the rapture could occur at any moment?

Well, since there's no pre-trib rapture, we still have a few prophetic events to unfold first such as the Mark of the Beast, the 7 Last Plagues, etc. So, no, the gathering of the saints to Jesus when He comes in the clouds can't happen "at any moment". But, we can know "when it is near, even at the door".

You do understand Daniel 70th week is inaugurated by the revealing of the man of sin which only occurs (more or less immediately) after the rapture event correct?

Daniel's 70th Week immediately followed the end of the 69th Week:

"...unto Messiah the Prince shall be 7 weeks, threescore and two weeks" is 69 weeks which ended with Prince Jesus' baptismal anointing ("messiah"). The 70th immediately followed the 69th - 3 1/2 years of Christ's ministry and death, and the remaining 3 1/2 years with the disciples preaching to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel", the ending of which was marked by the stoning of Stephen by the hand of the Jewish leaders themselves and the Gospel going to the Gentiles. [/QUOTE]

 

[Phoneman-777]

The antediluvians were not taken by surprise. The surprise was that Noah was correct. The surprise was that they missed the boat. The entire world had a 600 foot barge staring them in their face. Every single person on the planet new of Noah's plans and his building project. And many many years of preaching to go along with it. Don't forget they had Enoch preaching also. No, they simply ignored Noah, the ark and the preaching.

The same can be said to people today. The gospel is being preached to the four corners of the world. Practically everyone in the world knows of Jesus Messiah. So why hasn't the entire world repented and converted?

Here's why what happened to the Antediluvians doesn't square with this secret rapture nonsense:

The Antediluvians had zero evidence that what Noah was preaching was actually true. They never saw it rain, lightning, thunder, or flood anywhere...only a dew which came up and watered the ground. Therefore, they "knew not" that destruction was coming until 7 days after their fate was sealed when they were finally carried away in the destruction.

The "left behinders" will have so much evidence lying around all over the place confirming the truth of Scripture that only a stark raving fool will deny it.

Can you understand the difference between the once class who "knew not" with the other that will "know full well"?