Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[cv5]

They died from more than just that one thing, " the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"


And others did not take the mark and lived.

This occurs way back in Rev 13. Its denying the mark that is cause for persecution.

Rev 13:16
He causes ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,

 

[ewq1938]

This occurs way back in Rev 13. Its denying the mark that is cause for persecution.

Rev 13:16
He causes ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,

And as I have proven, refusing to take the mark does not always lead to death. There are those that are "alive and remain" who are faithful to Christ and did not take the mark.

 

[cv5]

And as I have proven, refusing to take the mark does not always lead to death. There are those that are "alive and remain" who are faithful to Christ and did not take the mark.

Oh I do believe some survive. But not due to that misapplied verse you provided.
That is a straight-up rapture verse.

 

[Truth7t7]

Speaking to future and Israelites.....

Speaking to the future Church in Jerusalem, Those saved by the blood, filled with Gods Spirit, The Church, where there isnt Jew or Greek

 

[ewq1938]

Oh I do believe some survive. But not due to that misapplied verse you provided.
That is a straight-up rapture verse.

Of course it's a rapture verse but it also proves not all Christians are killed in the Great Tribulation which means it's possible to refuse the mark and survive.

 

[pottersclay]

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2Corth 5:20

Did you know that one of the first acts of war or rumor of war is to remove the ambassadors from the region?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Did not Jesus say specifically that the end times will be "as in the days to Noah"? So, why do Jesuit Futurists interpret end time prophecy to be something totally different from the events back in Noah's day?

In the time of the "cataclysmos" Flood when the Ark door slammed shut, the fate of the wicked was sealed, though the rain would not fall for seven more days...and they didn't even know they were lost! When the Flood hit, there were two classes of people, those who were left alive safely inside the Ark and the ones Jesus said "knew not until the Flood came and took them all away".

But, Jesuit Futurists once again get it wrong by twisting Scripture so that the two classes of people in the last days are BOTH left alive, the one class taken up alive in a "secret rapture" while the other class are left alive down here for seven more years...does that sound even remotely like what happened in Noah's day?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Did not Jesus say specifically that the end times will be "as in the days to Noah"? So, why do Jesuit Futurists interpret end time prophecy to be something totally different from the events back in Noah's day?

In the time of the "cataclysmos" Flood when the Ark door slammed shut, the fate of the wicked was sealed, though the rain would not fall for seven more days...and they didn't even know they were lost! When the Flood hit, there were two classes of people, those who were left alive safely inside the Ark and the ones Jesus said "knew not until the Flood came and took them all away".

But, Jesuit Futurists once again get it wrong by twisting Scripture so that the two classes of people in the last days are BOTH left alive, the one class taken up alive in a "secret rapture" while the other class are left alive down here for seven more years...does that sound even remotely like what happened in Noah's day?

[pre-tribber, here (me ) ]

I've posted before (perhaps you haven't seen it), that the "one taken, the other left" applies in the following way (not the way you are suggesting "pre-tribbers" have it).


"as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"... where I've said:

--ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth (NOT "our Rapture"), to judge / govern / reign (i.e. the earthly MK age commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth);

--the "one taken" is taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day);

--the one "left" is left on the earth, to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children (just as in Noah's day; Only the "saints / righteous / BLESSED" [i.e. "saved" persons] will ENTER the MK age, upon His "RETURN" there--these are folks who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and who will have survived [alive] throughout the entire trib years, as in Dan12:12 and about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the same time-slot/circumstances, including in this Matt24 context "BLESSED" and in ITS parallel passage Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "BLESSED"... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347])


--thus, Matt24 / Lk17, where these phrases are found (re: His Second Coming to the earth time-slot), parallel both Gen9:1 and Dan2:35c "and FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth" (i.e. the "taken / left" passages are NOT "Rapture" contexts).

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Some (or many) among the pre-tribbers claim that since the Tribulation is NOT for the church, the book of Revelation is not applicable for the church.

This is easily refuted by the very words in Revelation, and in fact, form book-ends for the book.

Rev 1-
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Rev 22-
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Notice the parallels, by color.

The first 3 chapters are dedicated to NT churches. And 22:16 states clearly that "this testimony" given to John is "for the churches".

You might as well be talking to the wall. I've highlighted this as well but they ignore it.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Scripture does not say refusal of the mark leads to death. You are confusing two different things:

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Refusing to worship the image of the beast is a death penalty.


Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Refusing the mark isn't a death penalty. The only penalty is not being able to buy and sell which means no participation in the official economy. That would make life very hard but isn't something you will be killed for.

Here are people who refused the mark and survived:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Some Christians will survive and be changed and raptured after the Great Tribulation has ended, at the second coming. People who have taken the mark do not qualify to be raptured. Instead, the marked will suffer the wrath of God in the 7 vials.

We have other scriptures that show that the Antichrist's rule is not universal as well.
His worldwide influence does not mean he will have absolute dominance in every nook & cranny of the planet.
He encounters resistance. Surviving outside the system will be very difficult but not impossible.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Disagree. That Enoch quote is genuine and predates the Flood. How in the world can a literal living Enoch quote Moses?

Not in written form it doesn't.
Moses was far closer to Enoch than any of these modern pretrib teachers or even Jude.
I think he understood the context of the prophecy he was using.

Furthermore, the Lord does not appear on a white horse or with armies when he meets the Church in the air. And he can come at any moment......not after precisely 84 months after the man of sin is revealed.

These are pretrib doctrinal rules imposed on Bible prophecy which I reject. We will never be on the same page about this.

 

[Absolutely]

They died from more than just that one thing, " the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"


And others did not take the mark and lived.

Also one more thing;
The overcomes in the trib.

It says " they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony AND LOVED NOT THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH.

They died.

Oh,yet a fourth thing.

It says " power was given him to overcome the saints..."

So
Yes indeed,all either take the mark or die.

Read it
It says " every man, woman and child whether bond or free..."

 

[Absolutely]

Of course it's a rapture verse but it also proves not all Christians are killed in the Great Tribulation which means it's possible to refuse the mark and survive.

Where is such proof?

The bible verses I provided?
They have no weight?

 

[Absolutely]

We have other scriptures that show that the Antichrist's rule is not universal as well.
His worldwide influence does not mean he will have absolute dominance in every nook & cranny of the planet.
He encounters resistance. Surviving outside the system will be very difficult but not impossible.

Factor in the innumerable number.

( Which is yet a sixth verse showing all believers die in the gt.....all of them)

But hey.
Show me your verses

 

[Absolutely]

Not in written form it doesn't.
Moses was far closer to Enoch than any of these modern pretrib teachers or even Jude.
I think he understood the context of the prophecy he was using.



These are pretrib doctrinal rules imposed on Bible prophecy which I reject. We will never be on the same page about this.

You have yet to unpack even one of the rapture verses.

Your replies are "safe" and general.
Or just dodges

 

[Absolutely]

This occurs way back in Rev 13. Its denying the mark that is cause for persecution.

Rev 13:16
He causes ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,

I wonder what ".all" means.

 

[cv5]

Not in written form it doesn't.
Moses was far closer to Enoch than any of these modern pretrib teachers or even Jude.
I think he understood the context of the prophecy he was using.



These are pretrib doctrinal rules imposed on Bible prophecy which I reject. We will never be on the same page about this.

"Moses was far closer to Enoch"
You lost me there. Closer in what sense? Philosophically?
But to presume that this quote of Enoch is not genuine impugns the veracity of the Bible. I would assume that in Jude's day they had legit written records that we do not now possess.
The Holy Spirit inspired Jude to pull that particular quote which is accurate.

Yes I am aware of this theory that postexilic Jews conjured up Enochian mythical writings.
But nobody knows for sure. For all we know the book of Enoch could be substantially correct.

 

[cv5]

I wonder what ".all" means.

Everybody who is not saved evidently. My point was that denying the mark is the initial cause for the persecution. One does not casually refuse.....the mark is mandated by force of law. And it is impossible to hide the fact that you did NOT take the mark.

 

[Absolutely]

Everybody who is not saved evidently. My point was that denying the mark is the initial cause for the persecution. One does not casually refuse.....the mark is mandated by force of law. And it is impossible to hide the fact that you did NOT take the mark.

Yep

There are most likely perks for turning in your neighbor and family members

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Some (or many) among the pre-tribbers claim that since the Tribulation is NOT for the church, the book of Revelation is not applicable for the church.
[...]
Rev 22-
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Notice the parallels, by color.

The first 3 chapters are dedicated to NT churches. And 22:16 states clearly that "this testimony" given to John is "for the churches".

I've already addressed this in past posts (not sure if it was this thread or not... perhaps), when I have addressed Rev2-3 (in the section of Revelation re: "the things WHICH ARE").

Saying "unto/for/in the churchES" is not the same thing as saying "to 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'" :


--"unto the churchES" - "churchES" are made up of both believers AND those who come in His name but who are not actually connected with Christ (they are not "saved"); aka what is commonly called "Christendom";

--[by contrast] "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is made up of ONLY "believers" (ALL those saved [/who've come to faith/believers] "in this present age [singular]")