Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[KingdomBrat]

You bring up an interesting point. But Paul does not indicate anything like that in his doctrinal declarations in this matter. The underlying premise is that women should not have authority over man. Paul elaborates upon this in no uncertain terms.......1 Tim 2:12 et.al.

I think any Church that promotes women pastors is rebellious and chafes against Gods settled order for the Church. It is cause for Church discipline as much as any other transgression.

As for me should I walk into a Church and see a woman pastor, I would make a U-turn at walk right back out.

I reluctantly left my old Church because the pastor was a closet amillennialist (he did everything to hide it but he eventually came out....accidentally), and could not properly exegete eschatology. What else can you do when you have to tell your wife that the pastors entire sermon was 100% wrong 100% of the time? Most people would think that is splitting hairs but it isn't for me. The matter forced me to leave actually.

Ultimately, God created Eve to be Adam's [Helper or Equal]. God did not create her to [Lead] Adam but to affirm and assist him.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I've heard that argument many times and it has never proven true.

It is better to stand alone for Christ than to be entangled with denominations that deny Christ.

Scripture admonishes us to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing, be separate unto the Lord. Not exactly a charge to find commonalities nor to compromise values in order to accommodate unbelief.

Keep your eyes on Jesus and your mind focused on Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
2 Corinthians 6:14‭-‬17 ESV

Come out from among non-believers.

 

[mustaphadrink]

a makes dominion over a female is part of the curse

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but the curse is removed

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and at the same time Paul wrote this

“In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But with good works.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:9-15‬ ‭

it seems there is a conflict in Paul’s thinking either one way or the other . On one hand he is saying there’s no difference in Christ between a male and female which takes us back to before the curse

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion...
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

At this point it seems they are equals both made in his image both blessed and given dominion Adam being made first is part of Paul’s argument Eve was born of adams flesh but then later Paul explains that as woman was born of man in the beginning so man is now born from women’s flesh as she came from adams flesh So there is a unity and delendance on one another a
Man can’t exist without a woman and woman can’t exist without a man she came from him and then Cain came from her

he also at times makes the point “ I am saying this thing , not the lord but I say it “ he does this a couple times not here though he says “ I do not permit “ and then goves Timothy his reasoning

This is a good question I think I would listen to a woman if she was preaching a good message that was edifying , because I think the curse is gone in Christ and flesh doesn’t matter

but I could never tell
Anyone that is right , because of what Paul is explaining there . Good subject I think I’ll follow the posts and see what others think

good post for discussion I hope it stays peaceful

Sad to say you are one of those that make the scripture say what you want it to say as in...

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This verse has to do with salvation. It has nothing at all to do with authority and leadership in the church

This is a good question I think I would listen to a woman if she was preaching a good message that was edifying , because I think the curse is gone in Christ and flesh doesn’t matter

I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says that if a woman preaches a good message that was edifying then it is OK for her to preach. it was not an issue in the New Testament Church because women did not preach.

if you stick with scripture and leave the interpretation to suit then the church will be much stronger.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sad to say you are one of those that make the scripture say what you want it to say as in...

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This verse has to do with salvation. It has nothing at all to do with authority and leadership in the church

This is a good question I think I would listen to a woman if she was preaching a good message that was edifying , because I think the curse is gone in Christ and flesh doesn’t matter

I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says that if a woman preaches a good message that was edifying then it is OK for her to preach. it was not an issue in the New Testament Church because women did not preach.

if you stick with scripture and leave the interpretation to suit then the church will be much stronger.

I’m yes I think scripture should interpret scripture , so before making your judgement there , consider what I’m saying
“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-14‬ ‭


Again brother , I would attend a church with a female pastor because I have faith that tells me a woman isn’t less or different in Christ . Where as you , if you were to listen to her you would in your mind be doubting everything she said .

so you are correct we should let scripture teach us about the gospel . And learn about faith and how what you know is your standard and others have the standard of their faith .

this again is why I would have no issue what so ever listening to a female pastor , teacher or prophet

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith tells me God doesn’t care about male or female , I don’t either . Regardless that Paul said he himself didn’t allow women’s to teach or speak in church.

you should consider this understanding about faith and how it applies to the individual

“. For one believeth that he may eat all things:

another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith:

for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:1-2, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in other words my faith doesn’t tell
Me women are any different than myself , and I have no doubt if I listen to a female pastor or speaker in a church . It’s the message I’d care about .

but if you went to the same church you begin at doubt and it’s not going to benefit you to hear her , because you would obviously already have her convicted of a transgressor.

learning from those scriptures is important concepts like jidgement and faith in Romans 14 are important understandings from the gospel

it’s about your faith for you , my faith for
Me , thier faith for them . I myself am not held to your standard of belief but to mine same with you and everyone else nominee is held to
My standard of faith but to theirs

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It is not my intention to cause an argument or division among the faithful with that question just discussion in a Christian and civil manner.

I have always simply posted the Word of God as it is written. I post this question in order to properly attempt to teach the Word of God....PEROID!

1 Timothy 3:1-2.........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

According to the written Word of God, a Pastor can only be a "Male/Man".

Now, before anyone argues that point or disagree with me, remember that the "One" who said..."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" also was the "One" who said......
"if a "MAN" desire the office of a bishop".

The old Major did not have anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus Christ placed into the Word of God. The old Major just reads it and accepts it as it is written so your disagreements will be with Christ and not me!!!!

Now the question must be WHY would God do that?

1 Timothy 2:13-14 .....
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

It’s important to understand that Paul does not prohibit women from teaching in all contexts (Titus 2:3; Acts 18:25-26), only from teaching the Bible to men in the church.

Notice that Paul prohibits women from doing two distinct things.

1.
Women may not teach the Bible to men in the church.
2.
Women may not exercise authority over men in the church.

Teaching and exercising authority in the church are the two primary responsibilities of elders, pastors, or bishops. Thus, women are not to hold the office of pastor, but neither are they to perform these particular functions of a pastor over men in the church.

Again, for the inquisitive minds the question is still...WHY is that the case.

I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.

1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.

2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).

SOOOOOO I have to explain . In this thread I have been thinking one way , and some others made some interesting points , I decided to consider and pray and do some studying about it and now , I have to reconsider my position .


As I’ve said many times in hear to learn and discussion helps . So I think scripture here really
Makes me pause in my prior belief

“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭14:29-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is extremely difficult for me to accept and believe but it’s plainly there so I have to not necessarily change as of this moment but seriously pause and find the order here

because

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;

and they shall prophesy:”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:17-18‬ ‭


Is Paul’s bias from the Jewish law showing through like peters did ? And is Paul conflicted because he tells us we are no longer under the law , that the curse of the law was removed , that in Christ there is no distinction beteeen Jew , gentile , male female ?

I had looked at a different passage where Paul said many no her thkngs about this but began with “ i do not permit women to speak , but very clearly Paul is Making the statement “ these things are the commandment of the lord for the churches “

so I now am hoping to reconcile things because both ideas are there and Paul is making a clear judgement speaking for the lord to the church . I would now have doubts about hearing women speakers inside the church gathering

but still very hard thing to accept in my mind , can’t deny things so clearly stated even though it means I need to re think my own position

God bless and thanks to everyone for letting me participate in the conversation actually learned something to really pray about and look more into .

 

[Edify]

SOOOOOO I have to explain . In this thread I have been thinking one way , and some others made some interesting points , I decided to consider and pray and do some studying about it and now , I have to reconsider my position .


As I’ve said many times in hear to learn and discussion helps . So I think scripture here really
Makes me pause in my prior belief

“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭14:29-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is extremely difficult for me to accept and believe but it’s plainly there so I have to not necessarily change as of this moment but seriously pause and find the order here

because

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;

and they shall prophesy:”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:17-18‬ ‭


Is Paul’s bias from the Jewish law showing through like peters did ? And is Paul conflicted because he tells us we are no longer under the law , that the curse of the law was removed , that in Christ there is no distinction beteeen Jew , gentile , male female ?

I had looked at a different passage where Paul said many no her thkngs about this but began with “ i do not permit women to speak , but very clearly Paul is Making the statement “ these things are the commandment of the lord for the churches “

so I now am hoping to reconcile things because both ideas are there and Paul is making a clear judgement speaking for the lord to the church . I would now have doubts about hearing women speakers inside the church gathering

but still very hard thing to accept in my mind , can’t deny things so clearly stated even though it means I need to re think my own position

God bless and thanks to everyone for letting me participate in the conversation actually learned something to really pray about and look more into .

I have a scripture in Colossians 4: 15ESV
English Standard Version
Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.
Some commentarians (Wescott & Hort) says matter of factly that the name in the Greek is Nympha (feminine).
The KJV says 'Nymphas' but that is incorrect. Several scholars have searched ancient Greek texts, books, histories, etc., But have never found the name Nymphas, but have found Nympha.
We can check historical context and prove this to be true.
The word 'nymph' has a special meaning all its own.

From Wikipedia:
Nympha may refer to:

• another term for a chrysalis
• the labia minora (often in plural, nymphae)
• Nympha (Ninfa), a 5th-century virgin Christian martyr from Palermo

In Merriam webster's it says:
Definition of nympha

1: NYMPH sense 3
2nymphae plural [New Latin, from Latin, plural of nympha nymph] : LABIA MINORA
3[New Latin, from nymphae labia minora] : one of the thickened marginal processes behind the beak of many bivalves where the ligament is attached (the ladies know what this is)

Definition of nymph

1: any of the minor divinities of nature in classical mythology represented as beautiful maidens dwelling in the mountains, forests, trees, and waters
2: GIRLFair nymphs, and well-dressed youths around her shone …— Alexander Pope
3: any of various immature insectsespecially : a larva of an insect (such as a grasshopper, true bug, or mayfly) with incomplete (see INCOMPLETE sense 3) metamorphosis (see METAMORPHOSIS sense 2) that differs from the imago (see IMAGO sense 1) especially in size and in its incompletely developed wings and genitalia

The word nymph as we know it, from Wikipedia: A nymph (Greek: νύμφη, nýmphē; Ancient: [nýmpʰɛː], Modern: [nímfi]) in ancient Greek folklore is a minor female nature deity. Different from Greek goddesses, nymphs are generally regarded as personifications of nature, are typically tied to a specific place or landform, and are usually depicted as beautiful maidens.

So, nearly 95% of definitions declare that anything with 'nymph' in it to be female.
My question is HOW or WHY would a man in ancient Greece name his son 'Nymphas'?

Paul named her separately because she had church in her house. It didn't name a man pastor, otherwise Paul would have said, "Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Joe Smith, the minister of the church in Nypha's house".

Nypha was the pastor.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have a scripture in Colossians 4: 15ESV
English Standard Version
Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.
Some commentarians (Wescott & Hort) says matter of factly that the name in the Greek is Nympha (feminine).
The KJV says 'Nymphas' but that is incorrect. Several scholars have searched ancient Greek texts, books, histories, etc., But have never found the name Nymphas, but have found Nympha.
We can check historical context and prove this to be true.
The word 'nymph' has a special meaning all its own.

From Wikipedia:
Nympha may refer to:

• another term for a chrysalis
• the labia minora (often in plural, nymphae)
• Nympha (Ninfa), a 5th-century virgin Christian martyr from Palermo

In Merriam webster's it says:
Definition of nympha

1: NYMPH sense 3
2nymphae plural [New Latin, from Latin, plural of nympha nymph] : LABIA MINORA
3[New Latin, from nymphae labia minora] : one of the thickened marginal processes behind the beak of many bivalves where the ligament is attached (the ladies know what this is)

Definition of nymph

1: any of the minor divinities of nature in classical mythology represented as beautiful maidens dwelling in the mountains, forests, trees, and waters
2: GIRLFair nymphs, and well-dressed youths around her shone …— Alexander Pope
3: any of various immature insectsespecially : a larva of an insect (such as a grasshopper, true bug, or mayfly) with incomplete (see INCOMPLETE sense 3) metamorphosis (see METAMORPHOSIS sense 2) that differs from the imago (see IMAGO sense 1) especially in size and in its incompletely developed wings and genitalia

The word nymph as we know it, from Wikipedia: A nymph (Greek: νύμφη, nýmphē; Ancient: [nýmpʰɛː], Modern: [nímfi]) in ancient Greek folklore is a minor female nature deity. Different from Greek goddesses, nymphs are generally regarded as personifications of nature, are typically tied to a specific place or landform, and are usually depicted as beautiful maidens.

So, nearly 95% of definitions declare that anything with 'nymph' in it to be female.
My question is HOW or WHY would a man in ancient Greece name his son 'Nymphas'?

Paul named her separately because she had church in her house. It didn't name a man pastor, otherwise Paul would have said, "Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Joe Smith, the minister of the church in Nypha's house".

Nypha was the pastor.

Thank you I appreciate that , I’m sorry I can’t follow the logic brother .

I’m caught between this

“But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:14, 16-18‬ ‭

that sort of says that there are
Male and female prophets in these times to Me , and in truth prophets were the ones who were to preach the word among the church gatherings .

So that gives me pause alone along with several other things both ways , it’s just so very clear when Paul says that there about acknowledging that it’s the lords commandment .

I noticed Paul’s not perfect according to his own words and I noticed that Peter exhibited prejudice against Gentiles at first in the church which Paul confronted him about and as soon as that happened just after Peter received the dream showing him Gentiles were no longer unclean and sent Peter to Gentiles and they received the Holy Ghost the same way as Jews had

my point is Paul was a Pharisee before his conversion to the church, and Pharisees were creatures of the mosaic law of Carnality which subjegated women based on what Eve had done .

it seems at times Paul is teaching the curse has been removed with sin and the death of baptism and there is no longer a distinction between male and female spiritually speaking and then he makes that statement which is back in line with the mosaic law

it needs reconciliation in my own mind but it will have to come from scripture and what it says

I would offer an example for you of a female teacher on scripture Priscilla the wife of aquilla , the two of them taught Apollos who was one of Paul’s missionary companions later , a more complete understanding after his conversion .

the husband and wife team also traveled with Paul on his missionary journeys spreading the gospel . Another example is Mary Magdalene who was the first person sent to preach the news of the resurrection

I am sort of stubborn it will have to be scripture that gets me to where I am on the matter . Ultimately as of now I’d listen to anyone with a good message that is based upon the gospel

I tend to lean towards sons and daughters speaking his words but one cannot deny what Paul clearly stated in those verses , I’ll keep searching and consider also your post there again try to get what your saying and of course

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the lord will always answer believers if we ask

 

[notuptome]

I have a scripture in Colossians 4: 15ESV
English Standard Version
Nypha was the pastor.

The AV has it as Nymphas not Nympha.

Nymphas = "bridegroom"

1) a wealthy and zealous Christian in Laodicea

Col 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Scribe]

SOOOOOO I have to explain . In this thread I have been thinking one way , and some others made some interesting points , I decided to consider and pray and do some studying about it and now , I have to reconsider my position .


As I’ve said many times in hear to learn and discussion helps . So I think scripture here really
Makes me pause in my prior belief

“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭14:29-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is extremely difficult for me to accept and believe but it’s plainly there so I have to not necessarily change as of this moment but seriously pause and find the order here

because

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;

and they shall prophesy:”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:17-18‬ ‭


Is Paul’s bias from the Jewish law showing through like peters did ? And is Paul conflicted because he tells us we are no longer under the law , that the curse of the law was removed , that in Christ there is no distinction beteeen Jew , gentile , male female ?

I had looked at a different passage where Paul said many no her thkngs about this but began with “ i do not permit women to speak , but very clearly Paul is Making the statement “ these things are the commandment of the lord for the churches “

so I now am hoping to reconcile things because both ideas are there and Paul is making a clear judgement speaking for the lord to the church . I would now have doubts about hearing women speakers inside the church gathering

but still very hard thing to accept in my mind , can’t deny things so clearly stated even though it means I need to re think my own position

God bless and thanks to everyone for letting me participate in the conversation actually learned something to really pray about and look more into .

How clear it is in 1 Cor 14 depends on the level of effort one puts into reading the context and trying to figure out what was going on in the Church of Corinth that Paul was addressing.

Many think that he is specifically talking about them asking questions or in some way causing disorder. This is why they are to be silent in the church. Not a ban on women teachers or preachers. To isolate the command to be silent in the church from the context and then attempt to explain what Paul meant by banning women from the pulpit is not being fair to Paul.

We must look at the context and three times in this chapter he tells someone to be silent in the church. Speaking in tongues without an interpreter, be silent and speak to themselves and to God, when prophesying be silent for someone else to take a turn, and these women who were asking questions out of order and possibly in some sort of disrespect.

It is critical to notice the two previous requests in the context to be silent. The context is on how to do things decently and in order and there was something about the women asking questions that was out of order and they could ask their husbands later.

There is no Law in the OT that says a woman could not speak in the assembly so what Law was he talking about? The context of the sentence appears to be about obedience. So we have something to do with respect toward the husband. Ask them at home would be better than whatever it was they were doing that was causing disorder.

To say that Paul was teaching that women cannot speak in the church at all therefore excluding them from any teaching or preaching roles would not make sense because he talks about them prophesying and praying in chapter 11. There is no question that they prophesied and prayed in the public assembly and therefore spoke and it was not a shame for them to do so.

 

[Scribe]

The AV has it as Nymphas not Nympha.

Nymphas = "bridegroom"

1) a wealthy and zealous Christian in Laodicea

Col 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Almost all English Translations say Nympha was a her. There has been much written about it. All the best Greek Scholars including all those on the committees for all these translations agree that it was a woman. There is no one that seriously debates it in Theological Academic Circles any longer.

I am convinced from what I have read she was a female.

 

[Edify]

The AV has it as Nymphas not Nympha.

Nymphas = "bridegroom"

1) a wealthy and zealous Christian in Laodicea

Col 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The "authorized version" is the KJV and was authorized by King James himself. His 'authorization' was nothing because he wasn't even a christian.

 

[ocal]

It is not my intention to cause an argument or division among the faithful with that question just discussion in a Christian and civil manner.

I have always simply posted the Word of God as it is written. I post this question in order to properly attempt to teach the Word of God....PEROID!

1 Timothy 3:1-2.........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

According to the written Word of God, a Pastor can only be a "Male/Man".

Now, before anyone argues that point or disagree with me, remember that the "One" who said..."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" also was the "One" who said......
"if a "MAN" desire the office of a bishop".

The old Major did not have anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus Christ placed into the Word of God. The old Major just reads it and accepts it as it is written so your disagreements will be with Christ and not me!!!!

Now the question must be WHY would God do that?

1 Timothy 2:13-14 .....
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

It’s important to understand that Paul does not prohibit women from teaching in all contexts (Titus 2:3; Acts 18:25-26), only from teaching the Bible to men in the church.

Notice that Paul prohibits women from doing two distinct things.

1.
Women may not teach the Bible to men in the church.
2.
Women may not exercise authority over men in the church.

Teaching and exercising authority in the church are the two primary responsibilities of elders, pastors, or bishops. Thus, women are not to hold the office of pastor, but neither are they to perform these particular functions of a pastor over men in the church.

Again, for the inquisitive minds the question is still...WHY is that the case.

I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.

1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.

2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).

your better then me, and agree all the way, mostly self tough. serving God the best I can. thank you for encouragement. Praise the one God.

 

[Edify]

Pilgrimshope, The reason you're having trouble is you're not looking at the historical context. Both Corinth & Ephesus had temples to goddesses Diana & Aphrodite. In their temples, there would be 'priestesses' or temple prostitutes that took care of their worship. Because of this, these cities had women that were proud, arrogant, & lacked submissiveness in the churches. Their talking during preaching & teaching disrupted the service, So Paul stated they needed to submit & be quiet.

The one in 1Tim. 2 is about the women usurping authority over men in the marriage. Everything in the context speaks about a woman's behavior in public & in the home. NOTHING THERE speaks about ministry at all.

Any authority in the church was wrong because Jesus taught us we were to be servants.

Mark 10: 42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

How clear it is in 1 Cor 14 depends on the level of effort one puts into reading the context and trying to figure out what was going on in the Church of Corinth that Paul was addressing.

Many think that he is specifically talking about them asking questions or in some way causing disorder. This is why they are to be silent in the church. Not a ban on women teachers or preachers. To isolate the command to be silent in the church from the context and then attempt to explain what Paul meant by banning women from the pulpit is not being fair to Paul.

We must look at the context and three times in this chapter he tells someone to be silent in the church. Speaking in tongues without an interpreter, be silent and speak to themselves and to God, when prophesying be silent for someone else to take a turn, and these women who were asking questions out of order and possibly in some sort of disrespect.

It is critical to notice the two previous requests in the context to be silent. The context is on how to do things decently and in order and there was something about the women asking questions that was out of order and they could ask their husbands later.

There is no Law in the OT that says a woman could not speak in the assembly so what Law was he talking about? The context of the sentence appears to be about obedience. So we have something to do with respect toward the husband. Ask them at home would be better than whatever it was they were doing that was causing disorder.

To say that Paul was teaching that women cannot speak in the church at all therefore excluding them from any teaching or preaching roles would not make sense because he talks about them prophesying and praying in chapter 11. There is no question that they prophesied and prayed in the public assembly and therefore spoke and it was not a shame for them to do so.

you sort of are losing me at the first I don’t believe e church then is instructed to be any different than now . I’m not of the idea that some others are that we are to interpret the changes after scripture ends .


One of the reasons you lost me is this your trying to seperate what he was telling a certain group saying it’s not about women speakers well I believe we should let scripture interpret those types of things my point is

“In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:9-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is speaking here , as if they are under the curse of sin and death . as if they are under the curse of the law which followed the curse upon man in Eden

This curse is what I was talking about the subjegation of women is a result of SIN not the design of God for us.

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake;

...In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16-17, 19‬ ‭

Paul is speaking , as of sin hasn’t been removed at some points . And as if it had been removed at other points . I’m not sure if you understand what I’m saying but it makes sense to me . Sometimes Paul is speaking as if this is the case

before sin

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28‬ ‭

and then after they sin , she is placed under Adams dominion because of what she did , and sin and death is passed upon mankind.

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in the same way eves subjegation to Adam is passed upon all women . But in other places Paul preached that the curse is removed through baptism and so the separation between women and man Jew and gentile.


“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


By saying there is either male nor female in the body of Christ which Paul teaches elsewhere my own thing is , it needs reconciliation but I’m not sure the things your saying are what I’m needing on it , I appreciate the thoughts but I do think you may be in error regarding that it’s not about women teaching given the other verse where he talks about women being subject to men ect


It just creates in my own mind something that needs reconciliation and God always seems to answer the things he says he will so I think prayer consideration and more study will get me there eventually wheee I’m comfortable either way

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Pilgrimshope, The reason you're having trouble is you're not looking at the historical context. Both Corinth & Ephesus had temples to goddesses Diana & Aphrodite. In their temples, there would be 'priestesses' or temple prostitutes that took care of their worship. Because of this, these cities had women that were proud, arrogant, & lacked submissiveness in the churches. Their talking during preaching & teaching disrupted the service, So Paul stated they needed to submit & be quiet.

The one in 1Tim. 2 is about the women usurping authority over men in the marriage. Everything in the context speaks about a woman's behavior in public & in the home. NOTHING THERE speaks about ministry at all.

Any authority in the church was wrong because Jesus taught us we were to be servants.

Mark 10: 42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Are you sure it’s not that you are not looking at the rest of the scriptures ? Why would Paul teach one church one thing and then teach Timothy his successor that if it’s north about the subject it’s about ?

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems there’s a point there to
Me but , a secret I’ve learned is Paul’s letters are not a continuance of a story but thy ye are repetitive teachings to the church and won’t change later regardless of the historical time we’re in

the issue for me that I’m sure scripture will reconcile , what Paul’s saying is an element of the law of sin and death , so in this particular matter he’s speaking as of the women’s sin hasn’t been removed .

observe

“Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”


Why do you suppose he’s speaking this way of women ? And yet also teaches this

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-28‬ ‭

that’s like it was before they sinned at all , but Paul’s teaching in the other place that women are subject to men and are still being accused of eves transgression

I’m not at all wanting to argue or meaning to sound argumentative infeel
Like what I am trying to say isn’t wuote coming out right .

can you offer some thoughts on that ? Why is Paul teaching those two seemingly contradictory points ?

 

[Scribe]

you sort of are losing me at the first I don’t believe e church then is instructed to be any different than now . I’m not of the idea that some others are that we are to interpret the changes after scripture ends .


One of the reasons you lost me is this your trying to seperate what he was telling a certain group saying it’s not about women speakers well I believe we should let scripture interpret those types of things my point is

“In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:9-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is speaking here , as if they are under the curse of sin and death . as if they are under the curse of the law which followed the curse upon man in Eden

This curse is what I was talking about the subjegation of women is a result of SIN not the design of God for us.

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake;

...In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16-17, 19‬ ‭

Paul is speaking , as of sin hasn’t been removed at some points . And as if it had been removed at other points . I’m not sure if you understand what I’m saying but it makes sense to me . Sometimes Paul is speaking as if this is the case

before sin

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28‬ ‭

and then after they sin , she is placed under Adams dominion because of what she did , and sin and death is passed upon mankind.

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in the same way eves subjegation to Adam is passed upon all women . But in other places Paul preached that the curse is removed through baptism and so the separation between women and man Jew and gentile.


“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


By saying there is either male nor female in the body of Christ which Paul teaches elsewhere my own thing is , it needs reconciliation but I’m not sure the things your saying are what I’m needing on it , I appreciate the thoughts but I do think you may be in error regarding that it’s not about women teaching given the other verse where he talks about women being subject to men ect


It just creates in my own mind something that needs reconciliation and God always seems to answer the things he says he will so I think prayer consideration and more study will get me there eventually wheee I’m comfortable either way

You should not be comfortable with any hermeneutic that has Paul contradicting himself.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You should not be comfortable with any hermeneutic that has Paul contradicting himself.

Alright thanks

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Almost all English Translations say Nympha was a her. There has been much written about it. All the best Greek Scholars including all those on the committees for all these translations agree that it was a woman. There is no one that seriously debates it in Theological Academic Circles any longer.

I am convinced from what I have read she was a female.

theological academic circles ?

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is there any other biblical roots for a theological acedemic circle ?

 

[Scribe]

theological academic circles ?

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is there any other biblical roots for a theological acedemic circle ?

I have hesitated to answer thinking I am wasting my time. I will assume that you are not aware of certain things. It is a Godly character to seek the authorial intent (both the human author and the Holy Spirit) of any particular scripture in question.

There are organizations (many) that exist to allow scholars to present their hermeneutics to contribute to the collective body of knowledge that we have on interpreting scriptures with that goal in mind. Other scholars (experts in original languages and textual manuscripts for example) examine and respond to these presentations either agreeing with their hermeneutics or pointing out where they have made mistakes. These kinds of "Theological Academic Circles" are a great contribution to the body of Christ worldwide. You can find out about them by asking someone who is pursuing a doctorates in theology.

 

[notuptome]

Almost all English Translations say Nympha was a her. There has been much written about it. All the best Greek Scholars including all those on the committees for all these translations agree that it was a woman. There is no one that seriously debates it in Theological Academic Circles any longer.

I am convinced from what I have read she was a female.

The passage was originally written in Greek not English. Translators often use liberties in their translations that change to suit their preferences.

Nympha would be a woman but Nymphas is not a woman. The pronoun use in the end of the verse is also male but go ahead and continue in your error you are going to anyhow.

For the cause of Christ
Roger