Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Absolutely]

1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James Version)

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Amen.

No I turn as depicted in mat 25.

Thanks for the pretrib rapture dynamic verses

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, the Bridegroom will come for His bride prior to His wrath.

Your error is the same as many others who claim that Rev.19 is where the Lord gathers His church.

Chapters 6 thru 18 is a detailed account of the wrath of God, with chapter 19:11-21 being a detailed account of the Lord and His church returning to the earth to end the age.

Rev.19:6-8 reveals the wedding of the Lamb with the resurrected and caught up bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14, the bride (armies in heaven) are wearing that same fine linen, white and clean that she will have just received and will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. This demonstrates without a doubt that the church/bride is already in heaven. For in order follow the Lord out of heaven we would already have to be in heaven. We also have an excerpt from Rev.17:14 also showing that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that those who will have been resurrected, changed and caught up, will be with the Lord as He returns.

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” - Rev.17:14

The error is that you and others continue to not recognize that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events, which take place at different times and with different purposes.

You also keep demonstrating that you don't understand what we are in Christ. We have been credited with His righteousness and have been reconciled to God, which means to be brought back from enmity to friendship through faith in Christ. You continue to ignore the fact that Jesus already satisfied God's wrath completely and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe.

According to scripture, believers are to comfort each other with the words that Christ is going to appear and transform the living believers immortal and glorified. But you and others continue to believe and teach the opposite by teaching that believers within the church are going to go through God's wrath and be gathered afterwards. If this was the case, there would be no comfort for one another, because we would be going through the same plagues of wrath that the wicked will be exposed to. Nor could it be called 'the Blessed Hope."

When the wicked will say 'Peace and security" then destruction will come upon them like a woman having birth pains, and they will not escape. Then immediately following that regarding believers it says, 'but you brothers are not in darkness that 'this day should take you by surprise like a thief.' The 'But you brothers" in 1 Thess.5:4 would immediately infer the opposite not escaping, i.e. 'but you brothers will escape.' How will they escape? By the event that Paul just described at the end of chapter 4, by being transformed and caught up.

If both the wicked and the righteous were going to go though the same time of God's wrath, what would the meaning of 'you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief?' What would be the difference between the two if they both go through the time of God's wrath? How would it not take us by surprise? There would be no difference, because you would have those in Christ exposed to the same wrath as the wicked. In case you want to use the false apologetic that God is going to protect the church during that time, I challenge you to fine anywhere within Revelation chapters 6 thru 18 where the word 'church' is even mentioned. Or anywhere within those chapters that state that the church will be protected. Even the saints who come out of the great tribulation period are not excluded from the plagues of wrath, nor from the beasts kingdom. For he will be given power to wage war against them and to conquer them during the last 3 1/2 years.

In further support regarding this, in the promise given to the church of Philadelphia and therefore all believers who endure patiently, Jesus said that He would keep believers out of the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole inhabited world.

The bottom line that I keep driving home, is that because Jesus already satisfied God's wrath which every believer deserves, we cannot and will not go through God's wrath. It's already been satisfied! This is a legal precedent which Jesus fulfilled. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ and therefore cannot and will not be exposed to God's coming wrath.

What do you say to those you are preaching Christ to? Do you say to them, 'the good news is that you have forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life. I'm sorry to say however, you still have to go through God's coming wrath. Sorry!'

And just to cut you off at the pass (in case you attempt to use this false apologetic), neither the apostles nor the first century church suffered the wrath of God, but they suffered what Jesus said they and we would suffer, which is trials and tribulation because of our faith in Christ, which is not the wrath of God, but comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. God's wrath however is something completely different and will come directly from God.

The other error in putting the church through God's wrath, is that many do not understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. They are going to be worse than anything that has come since man has been on the earth. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third, respectively) over half the earths population will have been killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not counting trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor any of the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. By the time the 7bowl has been poured out which will complete God's wrath, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. This is why Jesus said that if that time was allowed to go on any longer no one on earth would be left alive.

No matter what you believe, the church has to be gathered prior to that first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

Yes so many things destroy the view of the postrib rapture.
The white horses are like a billboard in their front yard.

Have you ever seen them debate the absence of billions of horses in the rapture verses???

Oh... nevermind, they do not look at them.

 

[Absolutely]

There is one return of Christ Yeshua to His gathered, live and resurrected bodily transformed Bride at His next and final second coming descending in the clouds, to meet His Bride at her rapture where she ascends into the clouds. Immediately thereafter their Marriage Supper is conducted in the Father's house in Heaven, and Christ Yeshua descends after the Marriage Supper (not seven years later) to the remainder of earth, with His Heavenly armies, to conquer earth, as His and His Bride's dominion for the next thousand years, where they will rule over all the earth.

Revelation 19 (New King James Version)
Heaven Exults over Babylon
vs 1 - 10 (Destruction of Mystery Babylon at the end of the great tribulation, the Rapture of Christ Yeshua's bodily glorified resurrected believers - inclusive of the tribulation saints who died for their testimony of God - as well as all the living glorified bodily transformed believers, for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb)
Christ on a White Horse
vs 11 - 16 (Immediately after the Rapture and Marriage Supper of the Lamb, not seven years later, Christ Yeshua returns with His armies to conquer all that have remained on earth)
The Beast and His Armies Defeated
vs 17 - 21 (Christ Yeshua's armies conquers earth, for the start of Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom reign over the earth)

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)
Satan Bound 1,000 Years
vs 1 - 3 (An angel with the key to the bottomless pit, and a great chain, bounds the devil ie. satan for a thousand years)
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
vs 4 - 6 (The Raptured saints, including those who died during the great tribulation, after they enjoyed the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and after Christ Yeshua's conquered of earth immediately after the Marriage Supper, His Bride reigns with Him in His dominion over all the earth for a thousand years)
Satanic Rebellion Crushed
vs 7 - 10 (After the thousand years, Satan gets released for the final battle on earth, of Gog and Magog. Satan gets cast into the lake of fire after his final defeat in the battle of Gog and Magog)
The Great White Throne Judgment
vs 11 - 15 (All the dead were judged, and the damned are cast into the eternal lake of fire)

Revelation 21 (New King James Version)
All Things Made New
vs 1 - 6 (A new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem is inherited by God's children, to dwell with Him until eternity)
.
.
.

Yawn
Both sides of the debate believe Jesus returns after the gt.

Your deal is to deflect from or totally ignore the RAPTURE VERSES....as you have so obviously demonstrated

 

[Absolutely]

Amen.

No I turn as depicted in mat 25.

Thanks for the pretrib rapture dynamic verses

Amen.

No uturn, as depicted in mat 25.

Thanks for the pretrib rapture dynamic verses

 

[Absolutely]

5 min edit is a time waster. I see no real merit or purpose for it.

 

[Absolutely]

I was thinking of that several pages ago.

Title:
Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

The verses cited in the OP are not less well known.
The first is about waiting for The Lord's return and that he has delivered us from the wrath of eternal punishment.

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead – Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The second verse may be be less well known among students of pretrib doctrine because it tells us clearly,
that the whole company of those who have believed will be relieved from our suffering at the 2nd coming.
The 2nd coming is expressly defined.

2 Thess 1

4 As a result, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God,
for which you indeed are suffering.

6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels

8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.


The OP reframed the verse with a pretib bais.
Inserting "(which is the purpose of the GT......a purpose not accorded to the Bride) "
and leaving out the surrounding contextual verses.

....those pesky pretrib rapture verses.

Jesus said ” pray that you be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world and stand before the son of God"

Postribs CAN NOT pray that.

Also please post for me another rapture verse.
I would be interested to see a postrib rapture adherent do such a milestone.

 

[cv5]

I was thinking of that several pages ago.

Title:
Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

The verses cited in the OP are not less well known.
The first is about waiting for The Lord's return and that he has delivered us from the wrath of eternal punishment.

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead – Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The second verse may be be less well known among students of pretrib doctrine because it tells us clearly,
that the whole company of those who have believed will be relieved from our suffering at the 2nd coming.
The 2nd coming is expressly defined.

2 Thess 1

4 As a result, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God,
for which you indeed are suffering.

6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels

8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.


The OP reframed the verse with a pretib bais.
Inserting "(which is the purpose of the GT......a purpose not accorded to the Bride) "
and leaving out the surrounding contextual verses.

Paul's 2 Thess 2 discourse makes no sense whatsoever in a post tribulation framework.
Paul is comforting the Thessalonians, telling them that they did not miss the rapture.
It makes no sense that Paul is comforting them by telling them they will still be going through the tribulation but it's coming next week.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus isnt setting up a Millennial Kingdom on "This Earth" it will be dissolved by fire (Fact)

You need to read Rev 20 very carefully. The present earth WILL BE dissolved by fire AFTER His Millennial reign, when He wins the battle of Gog and Magog, which is clearly stated as at the end of the 1,000 years.

There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

You either haven't ever read Rev 20 or you just don't understand it.

"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

All of your attempted "proof texts" simply note that Jesus is the final Judge of earth and people. That occurs at the GWT judgment, in Rev 20:11-15, which is FOLLOWING the battle of Gog and Magog, which is at the end of the 1,000 year reign.

After the GWT judgment, THEN there will be a NHANE. That is Rev 21.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I recommend a careful reading of Rev 19 and 20. There won't be a pre-Trib coming. Jesus comes to end the battle of Armageddon and to set up His Millennial kingdom. He resurrects/raptures all believers when He comes."

Yes, the Bridegroom will come for His bride prior to His wrath.

I gave Scripture to support what I believe. All you did was give your opinion. Since this thread is about verses that teach that Jesus comes and resurrects/raptures all dead and living believers before the Trib and then takes all of them back to heaven, what verses clearly teach that? I'm interested in Scripture, not opinions.

Your error is the same as many others who claim that Rev.19 is where the Lord gathers His church.

That's hardly the only one. 1 Cor 15:23 shows that all saints (those who belong to Him) will be given their immortal bodies at the same time. Which affirms Rev 19 and the "first resurrection" description, which is AFTER the Trib.

Also, 1 Thess 4 says nothing about any U-turn back to heaven. in fact, NONE of the supposed "rapture verses" says anything about returning to heaven. Not a one.

And Acts 3:21 says that Jesus remains in heaven "until the time when all things are restored". The English word "receive" in the Greek means "receive and retain, to contain". That means that Jesus STAYS in heaven until He comes back to restore all things.

Rev.19:6-8 reveals the wedding of the Lamb with the resurrected and caught up bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14, the bride (armies in heaven) are wearing that same fine linen, white and clean that she will have just received and will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. This demonstrates without a doubt that the church/bride is already in heaven.

Nope. The wording of the Bride preparing herself indicates what is just about to occur, along with the wedding supper. It's unmistakable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

....those pesky pretrib rapture verses.

Oh, please do share some of them with us.

Jesus said ” pray that you be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world and stand before the son of God"

Postribs CAN NOT pray that.

Are you kidding?? Of course we can! Those believers who aren't faithful/obedient will feel God's wrath, along with the unbelievers. The difference is that when they die, they will go to heaven. But they won't reign with Christ during the Millennial Kingdom.

In fact, Rev 3:10 shows clearly that ONLY those who have been faithful will be "kept from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world". That was said to the believers in Philadelphia, one of only 2 churches out of the 7 that Jesus didn't have something against them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Have you ever seen them debate the absence of billions of horses in the rapture verses???

Billions of horses?

You have a wild imagination, are you sure it isn't 100 Trillion?

Revelation 19:14KJV
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[Truth7t7]

You need to read Rev 20 very carefully. The present earth WILL BE dissolved by fire AFTER His Millennial reign, when He wins the battle of Gog and Magog, which is clearly stated as at the end of the 1,000 years.


You either haven't ever read Rev 20 or you just don't understand it.


All of your attempted "proof texts" simply note that Jesus is the final Judge of earth and people. That occurs at the GWT judgment, in Rev 20:11-15, which is FOLLOWING the battle of Gog and Magog, which is at the end of the 1,000 year reign.

After the GWT judgment, THEN there will be a NHANE. That is Rev 21.

Perhaps You Need To Understand, Jesus Christ Returns, Appears, Reveals, in Fire and (Final Judgement)

You Give Total (Disregard) The Scripture Below, (Why)?

There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

2 Thessalonians 7:8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[Truth7t7]

You need to read Rev 20 very carefully. The present earth WILL BE dissolved by fire AFTER His Millennial reign, when He wins the battle of Gog and Magog, which is clearly stated as at the end of the 1,000 years.

You either haven't ever read Rev 20 or you just don't understand it.

All of your attempted "proof texts" simply note that Jesus is the final Judge of earth and people. That occurs at the GWT judgment, in Rev 20:11-15, which is FOLLOWING the battle of Gog and Magog, which is at the end of the 1,000 year reign.

After the GWT judgment, THEN there will be a NHANE. That is Rev 21.

Perhaps you can help me find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Perhaps You Need To Understand, Jesus Christ Returns, Appears, Reveals, in Fire and (Final Judgement)

I do understand. Unlike yourself.

You Give Total (Disregard) The Scripture Below, (Why)?

No, I give proper understanding of the verses.

There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

Rev 20 totally refutes your imagination.

2 Thessalonians 7:8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

There is no chapter 7 in 2 Thess. Maybe you have a different kind of Bible that the rest of us. That might explain a lot. Is Rev 20 missing ffom yours?

"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)

Yes, that is a fact. But maybe it just hasn't occurred to you that this refers to WHEN the GWT judgment occurs and EVERY KNEE shall bow, before those who's name isn't in the Book of Like will be cast into the lake of fire.

When Jesus comes to earth (Second Coming) and ends the battle of Armageddon, and sets up His kingdom, all those unbelievers who have already died won't be around to witness this kingdom. But they WILL when they are "resurrected" to attend the GWT judgment.

That's when Jesus Christ, King of kings, and Lord of lord will be revealed to THEM.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Dead unbelievers, from all of human history WON'T witness His Second Coming. They won't be there. But they certainly will be at the GWT judgment. That's when Jesus will be revealed to ALL unbelievers, in His glory as Judge, Jury, and Executioner.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Perhaps you can help me find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

Been there, done that. But I'm always happy to repeat myself.

Rev 20-
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

OK, this passage shows an angel coming down from heaven (to earth, obviously). He binds and locks the devil into the Abyss, to keep him from "deceiving the nations anyone", for how long? 1,000 years. Also called the Millennium. The nations, btw, all reside ON EARTH. So there's your earth and mortal humans.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Ok, this passage shows the martyrs from the Trib being resurrected (came to life). And, what did they DO? "REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. Again, called the Millennium. These are humans who have been resurrected. And they REIGN with Christ. This isn't difficult to grasp. Just believe the words. It's all there.

From the first 3 verses, we KNOW the context is ON THE EARTH.

Rev 12:5 - She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Rev 19:15,16
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The "nations" are mortal humans, being ruled by Christ.

Now, you are free to reject the truth. But you have been given the truth.

Oh, and don't forget some more truth:
2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

We have verses that SAY that Jesus "rules the nations". And the context is ON EARTH. And we have verses that say that believers will RULE WITH CHRIST.

So, there, you have it.

The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

Rev 20 refutes your imaginationn.

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)[

Your so-called "fact" is pure imagination.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You can copy and paste the passage, but obviously you do not understand it.

 

[Runningman]

Rapture verses are always set in context of the return of Christ. Christ returns after the great tribulation; ipso facto, pre-tribulation rapture is a false doctrine.

 

[Absolutely]

Rapture verses are always set in context of the return of Christ. Christ returns after the great tribulation; ipso facto, pre-tribulation rapture is a false doctrine.

The rapture verses your teachers omit?
Those rapture verses?


Yes he returns to gather his bride.

He later returns with his bride.

Solid and authenticated by scripture.

You have no case

 

[Runningman]

The rapture verses your teachers omit?
Those rapture verses?


Yes he returns to gather his bride.

He later returns with his bride.

Solid and authenticated by scripture.

You have no case

But there isn't any solid scripture that says the rapture happens pre-tribulation.

This wouldn't even be a debate if there was a clear verse saying the rapture is an event entirely separate from the return of Christ.

The best possible clear verse that gives us a hint is "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." There will be signs in the heavens then the Son of Man will return.

The preceding verses describe "the tribulation of those days" just like how the great tribulation is described.

Truly baffled how you all don't read it for what it says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The rapture verses your teachers omit?
Those rapture verses?

If you could prove your theory about a pre-trib rapture, you'd have already provided all of them. But you haven't.

Yes he returns to gather his bride.

He later returns with his bride.

Later, huh? Where is that found in Scripture?

Rather, Scripture is quite clear that Jesus STAYS in heaven "until the times of restoration".

Acts 3:21 - Contemporary English Version But Jesus must stay in heaven until God makes all things new, just as his holy prophets promised long ago.

International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

The word for "remain" or "receive" in other translations is: δέξασθαι (dexasthai)

From: https://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/word_studies/greek/dechomai.pdf

Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised (page 88):
a. to receive
b. to receive into and retain, contain
c. met. To receive by the hearing, learn, acquire a knowledge of
d. to receive, admit, grant access to, receive kindly, welcome
e. to receive in hospitality, entertain
f. to bear with, bear patiently
g. met. To receive, approve, assent to
h.to admit and by implication to embrace, follow

I own this lexicon, and the meaning found in "b" is associated with Acts 3:21. Therefore, the verse says that Jesus STAYS/REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.

Solid and authenticated by scripture.

That's what I do. And just did.

You have no case

On the contrary, you have no verses that support your own theory.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The rapture verses your teachers omit?
Those rapture verses?


Yes he returns to gather his bride.

He later returns with his bride.

Solid and authenticated by scripture.

You have no case

We all have the same scriptures.
There is no verse that states he returns to gather- then he returns with a bride at another time.
If there was one you could show it.

You say we have no case because you are holding up Pre-trib doctrine as fact, then measuring everything according to that.
If we study the word without the lens of doctrine it speaks for itself.

Hebrews 9:28

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I know you like KJV so here it is

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.