Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:15-20 / Mark 13:14-18 / Luke 21:20-23a are all talking about the very same exact thing - which occurred ~70 A.D. (67-70 time frame)

That is the "last end" of 'AoD' prophecy - there is no future AoD.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^Most of that seems okay; however, I think you got off-track with the "LATER" AoD.

To understand the 'AoD' reference in the Matthew and Mark accounts of the Olivet Discourse, you must understand the parenthetical statements.

The Jews understood it perfectly - and got out of Jerusalem when they saw the 'signs' that Jesus told them about.

I thought you would understand the "LATER" because of what I said: the "AOD [SINGULAR]" Jesus spoke of was what is found in Daniel 12:11 (NOT Dan9:26's PLURALS!), and Dan12 is connected with when Daniel will be RESURRECTED ['to stand again' on the earth], "at the END of the days" (at the END of the days spoken of IN THAT CONTEXT, i.e. at the END of the far-future "2nd HALF of trib" / [final] 1260 days)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matthew 24:15-20 / Mark 13:14-18 / Luke 21:20-23a are all talking about the very same exact thing - which occurred ~70 A.D. (67-70 time frame)

No, verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE," the things in vv.12-24a/b must take place (i.e. the 70ad events, INCLUDING "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"; Because... COMPARE Matt22:7 [70ad events] AND THEN SEQUENTIALLY Matt22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to his servants..." which connects to the LATER "95ad writing of '[The] Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/UNTO JESUS] TO SHEW UNTO...'"... which "future aspects" of the Book [per 1:1 (7:3) / 1:19c /4:1] "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," and which "limited" time-period ENDS with His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [not to mention, ends also with Daniel (OT saints) being "resurrected [to stand again (on the earth)]"])


Thus, the SEQUENCE takes place like THIS:

1) the 70ad events (Lk21:12-24a/b[__], including the FIRST "SEE-then-FLEE" and the "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, i.e. SCATTERED)

2) "the beginning of birth PANGS" (parallel the SEALS of Rev6--a PART of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN}" limited time-frame)

3) THEN the AOD [SINGULAR] (at mid-trib; Dan12:11!! [NOT 9:26b!]--SECOND "SEE-then-FLEE")

4) etc

 

[GaryA]

I thought you would understand the "LATER" because of what I said: the "AOD [SINGULAR]" Jesus spoke of was what is found in Daniel 12:11 (NOT Dan9:26's PLURALS!), and Dan12 is connected with when Daniel will be RESURRECTED ['to stand again' on the earth], "at the END of the days" (at the END of the days spoken of IN THAT CONTEXT, i.e. at the END of the far-future "2nd HALF of trib" / [final] 1260 days)

Oh, I totally agree 100% that Daniel 9 makes no mention at all of the AoD.

What the Olivet Discourse made reference to - that Daniel 12 made reference to - is in Daniel 11.

I disagree with the assumption that everything written in Daniel 12 is referring to things all in the same time frame.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I disagree with the assumption that everything written in Daniel 12 is referring to things all in the same time frame.

Okay, so yes, we do disagree here, then...

--Dan12:1-4 is not speaking of a "bodily/physical resurrection from being formerly physically DEAD," but is speaking of "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where SCATTERED" (and what THEY "go on TO DO" then!) parallel to ALL the passages referring to that same thing:

--Ezek37:12-14,20-23 the "dry bones" prophecy (re: Israel, nation of)

--Hos5:14-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" and... "in their [Israel's] affliction, they WILL seek Me EARLY" and... this is from the point in time of His "I shall go and return to My place UNTIL..." (i.e. factored from the time of His ASCENSION; re: Israel, nation of)

--Rom11:15 [also vv.25-29 and its "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL"] (re: Israel, nation of)

--Isa26:15-21 ([see esp vv.14,17] and where v.20's "Come, MY PEOPLE" speaks re: Israel, nation of... (but not Israel NOW which is still in the "LO AMMI" time-frame)... in that same "limited" TIME-FRAME as the above [THEN (future), NOT NOW])

--Jn6:39 (distinct from v.40)... "THINGS" (versus v.40's PEOPLE)

--Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 about Jesus' birth), "[give them up UNTIL]... THEN the remnant of of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" (parallel Rev12:17's "remnant of her seed" at the point when there is "1260 days" remaining until His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19); and which also parallels the "ye shall not see Me again UNTIL ye shall say..." ('say' a particular thing! [which connects back to the TYPE in Gen43,44,45 or thereabouts, re: Joseph and his BRETHREN--in the SECOND of Joseph's TWO dreams [paralleling Christ's SECOND Advent's events (-surrounding)])

--etc, etc, etc...



So, for these reasons and many more (too numerous to list out tonight), I disagree with your assessment. = )


[Dan12:1,6-7... providing the precise time-fame, parallel to what Dan7:25,27 had also spoken of!! (2nd half of future trib yrs.. and chpt 12 is even more meticulously precise... not just any random ____-time-frame]

 

[GaryA]

I believe Revelation was written before 70 A.D.

I believe your "IN QUICKNESS" - in the greek - means "soon to begin"...

 

[GaryA]

We will just have to disagree concerning Daniel 12.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe Revelation was written before 70 A.D.

I believe your "IN QUICKNESS" - in the greek - means "soon to begin"...

It doesn't.

--"IN QUICKNESS" is a NOUN (this parallels the other passages using THIS phrase: Lk18:8 and Rom16:20--NOT happening "NOW")

--"SOON" is an ADVERB (as is "quickLY" or "immediateLY" and all other kinds of words ppl try to inject which are ADVERBS... but this word IS NOT an ADVERB)





The phrase simply states, "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," and this verse (1:1) corresponds also with what is said in 1:19c and 4:1 (i.e. pertaining NOT to the "NOW" aspects [which BY CONTRAST are NOT said of them "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS"!! ], but the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book [4:1 and forward... speaking of a future, specific, LIMITED time-frame ONLY, which leads UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19]);



[that's in addition to what I'd said about Paul and Jesus BOTH referring to the "birth PANGS"--Paul in the SINGULAR (1Th5:2-3), Jesus in the PLURAL, because Paul is speaking of its ARRIVAL point in time, Jesus is covering the entire SPANS of them (which, TOO, *starts* with THE INITIAL ONE of those MANY MORE!!)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Heartbreakingly, many pre-trib people have told me that verse is for the Jews who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation. They don't think they are equal to the church saints and will be treated to God's Wrath, as lesser believers. [...]

No "pre-tribber" calls them "lesser believers" (only those who hold to the "PARTIAL-rapture theory" who suggest such things

[*I*, and most pre-tribbers, do not hold to the "partial-rapture theory"... nor to a "kingdom-exclusion theory [for any member of 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY']" like C.Missler began to adopt in his LATER ministry, like post-2008[??] or somewhere thereabouts]





Tell me, you don't think much of the following verse, right? "[in the "resurrection chpt"] 41 one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We will just have to disagree concerning Daniel 12.

Yep... we do disagree there. =)





[I say Dan12:1-4,6-7's specific [VERY-specific-wording'd] day-amounts EQUAL (are the SAME THING AS) what is shown in Dan7:25,27... and THAT time period involves v.20's "whose look is more stout than his fellows" and whose "MOUTH" (and "war") is the SAME "MOUTH" (and "war") in Rev13:5-7,1... which is connected with the Rev17:8's "beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and yet SHALL BE [future tense]" at the time when Rev was written by John (referred to also in v.11a-12--timing issues stated here)]

 

[GaryA]

It doesn't.

It does.

2nd Aorist middle infinitive verb

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It does.

2nd Aorist middle infinitive verb

K, that covers the "to take place [G1096 - genesthai ]" verb (corresponds with Rev4:1 also... as well as 1:19c... as I pointed out [1:19c also has the word "mello - SURE [to] / CERTAIN [to]"... equivalent in meaning to the "must" in the other two verses]).

Then there's the preposition "IN [G1722 - en]".

Then there's the noun "quickness [G5034 - tachei - 'NOUN - Dative Neuter Singular']."

(btw, this last word is the same word/phrase as in Lk18:8 and Rom16:20 , which are also both not referring to the "NOW" [aka 'the things WHICH ARE' ... nor 'this present age [singular]'])


Revelation 1:1 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So it would be like this:

[quoting... taken FROM what shows at BibleHub] -

"Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. quickness, speed"
   
   [end quoting]

So... like the difference between these (at Merriam-Webster):


Other Words from speedy

speedily \ ˈspē-də-lē \ adverb
speediness \ ˈspē-dē-nəs \ noun


... we're talking about the second one... that's a NOUN.

"IN SPEEDINESS [NOUN]" refers to the manner in which it transpires once it STARTS (not how SOON it starts).



"The race will take place IN SPEEDINESS [NOUN]" does not at all tell you WHEN the race is scheduled to commence... like, if I'm inviting you to attend it with me. Elsewhere would be the info for that (... like 6 mos from now, not tomorrow!).

 

[MattforJesus]

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:5 and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about:

thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF

The saints come back with Jesus when He defeats the world at the battle of Armageddon so the saints must have been caught up to heaven to be able to come back with Jesus.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The saints come back with Jesus when He defeats the world at the battle of Armageddon so the saints must have been caught up to heaven to be able to come back with Jesus.

AGREED (and not just in their/our "spirits / souls," but in glorified BODIES too )


In addition to your listing of verses, see this one:

"Hear now, O high priest Joshua [name meaning: "salvation," and closely connected with the name "Jesus"], you and your companions seated before you, who are indeed a sign [kjv says, "WONDERED AT"--(sound familiar??)]. For behold, I am going to bring My servant, the Branch." - Zech3:8



Yeah. = )


[THEY (the ppl spoken of) are "A SIGN"... I'm recalling Matt24:29-31 at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (NOT that "our Rapture" occurs then!)... saying "SIGN" and "[shall] APPEAR IN HEAVEN" in that passage]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[just placing this here, to go along with that one ^ ]


[quoting from BlueLetterBible]

Lexicon :: Strong's G2424 - iēsous [Jesus; Transliteration: Iésous]
Choose a new font size and typeface
Ἰησοῦς
Transliteration
iēsous (Key)
Pronunciation
ee-ay-sooce' (Key)
Part of Speech
proper masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Of Hebrew origin יְהוֹשׁוּעַ (H3091) [Joshua]

[and]

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
Joshua or Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation"
proper masculine noun
-son of Nun of the tribe of Ephraim and successor to Moses as the leader of the children of Israel; led the conquest of Canaan
-a resident of Beth-shemesh on whose land the Ark of the Covenant came to a stop after the Philistines returned it
-son of Jehozadak and high priest after the restoration
-governor of Jerusalem under king Josiah who gave his name to a gate of the city of Jerusalem

[end quoting BLB]



See Hebrews 4:8 at BLB ( ^ ) -

"For G1063 if G1487 Jesus G2424 had given G2664 ➔ them G846 rest, G2664 then would he G302 not G3756 afterward G3326 G5023 have spoken G2980 of G4012 another G243 day. G2250"


See same verse at BibleHub -

-- https://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-8.htm (the majority of the translations say "Joshua" in this verse)

-- https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/4-8.htm - "...if Joshua had given rest to them..."

--G2424 "Jesus; Transliteration: Iésous" - (quoting from BibleHub) "Definition: Jesus or Joshua, the name of the Messiah, also three other Isr - Usage: Jesus; the Greek form of Joshua; Jesus, son of Eliezer; Jesus, surnamed Justus." [and] "2424 Iēsoús – Jesus, the transliteration of the Hebrew term, 3091 /Lṓt ("Yehoshua"/Jehoshua, contracted to "Joshua") which means "Yahweh saves" (or "Yahweh is salvation")."

 

[Runningman]

Nonsense. We talk about that verse all the time. It's part of our end time eschatology. These are clearly the tribulation saints. Part of the first resurrection ultimately.

You must be a newbie because everyone understands what that verse means, where it fits how it fits.

The saints who are in the tribulation are Christians who are waiting for the return of Christ after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:22
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Now who do you think the elect are, don't say it's the Jews. We just established that everyone will be a target for persecution in the great tribulation. There's no verse for tribulation saints. These saints are none other than the church itself: the elect.

 

[cv5]

Matthew 24:15-20 / Mark 13:14-18 / Luke 21:20-23a are all talking about the very same exact thing - which occurred ~70 A.D. (67-70 time frame)

That is the "last end" of 'AoD' prophecy - there is no future AoD.

Gary.....I have posted this numerous times I'm sure you have viewed it. This is in fact the correct exegesis. With the graphics included I do not see how anyone can refute this teaching. Your entire end time eschatology is wreckage buddy. It does not match the clear concise Scriptural statements of Jesus and Daniel.

 

[cv5]

The saints who are in the tribulation are Christians who are waiting for the return of Christ after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:22
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Now who do you think the elect are, don't say it's the Jews. We just established that everyone will be a target for persecution in the great tribulation. There's no verse for tribulation saints. These saints are none other than the church itself: the elect.

Nope. The Church is one and done. Begins at Pentecost ends at the Rapture.
Just to show you that you don't know what you're talking about see all three groups here in Revelation chapter 7. Elders (the Church.....already in heaven in Rev ch 4) 144,000 ELECT Israelite commandos, Tribulation Saints. These groups are distinct & unique....yet all are part of the first resurrection.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/nkjv/rev/7/1/s_1174001

The 70 A.D. destruction is NOT noted in Daniels 70 weeks prophecy. Jesus does not conflate the two either. And there is no way at all (it is impossible) to shoehorn the 70AD destruction INTO Daniels 70 weeks prophecy. Jesus is not confused YOU are confused.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Revelation has 7 accounts of the end times in several chapters from different views. It is not chronological. Of course, the First Resurrection is AFTER the Tribulation. The Master cannot lie.

Mar 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation...​

Mar 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. ​

Mar 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. ​

​

There are not any levels of Believers, only rewards for our works, and Jesus says narrow is the way, and few will find it. All I care about is being one of the ones who overcomes and endures to the end, so I won't be written out of the book of life. Whatever road He lays out for me, I will walk it.

Sorry, but I don't understand the rest of what you said. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

This is what I said:
"The verse in 1 Thess about believers not appointed to His wrath is contrasted with salvation. So it's not talking about what occurs on earth, but what occurs at the final judgment, the GWT judgment. And no believer will be appointed to the lake of fire."

I was referring to 1 Thess 5:10. Sorry. I should have cited the verse.