Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??
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As far as I can tell, people only assembled together to spur each other along toward love and good deeds (Hebrews 10:23-25) on the first day of the week. While worshipping God is a daily, non-stop, action which is evident by holy living (Romans 12:1).
So our lives are a living sacrifice, worship occurs by holy living, assembling occurs to encourage each other. The building is irrelevant because our 'bodies are the temples.' The outside of the temple is meaningless if the inside of the temple is dirty. Think of us more like spirits and less like material entities and we must worship God in 'spirit and truth.'
This means that worship can occur anywhere, any time, by anyone whether they be male or female.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
So our lives are a living sacrifice, worship occurs by holy living, assembling occurs to encourage each other. The building is irrelevant because our 'bodies are the temples.' The outside of the temple is meaningless if the inside of the temple is dirty. Think of us more like spirits and less like material entities and we must worship God in 'spirit and truth.'
This means that worship can occur anywhere, any time, by anyone whether they be male or female.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
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I agree that our bodies are the temple, and that the building is not important. I also agree that we can, and should, worship God all day long everyday. But to assemble ourselves together upon the first day of the week is not optional, it is ordered. We are not to “forsake the assembly”. Some people call this “ going to church” even though we are the church. I say it too because in our language the meaning is recognized by others. So my point was that this was not during ‘church’ where a man of God addresses the assembly of christians (congregation) with a lesson from the bible- not to mention prayer and singing praises to God. Women may not preach during this time.
I think it's just instructions for worship which occurs at all times, not just the first day of the week. So since there are Biblical examples of women preaching, to me it seems like this is talking about their husbands possibly: Titus 2:3-5
For example, Acts 18:26 shows an example of a woman teaching a man. Or what about Acts 2:16-18 " in the last days your sons and daughters shall prophesy?"
It isn't exactly crystal clear. I mean, how can there be no males or females in Christ if there are different standards for male and females? This means the truth is somewhere else.
I'm of the mindset it's a matter of conscience at this point. People need to be convinced in their own mind what they believe about it.
For example, Acts 18:26 shows an example of a woman teaching a man. Or what about Acts 2:16-18 " in the last days your sons and daughters shall prophesy?"
It isn't exactly crystal clear. I mean, how can there be no males or females in Christ if there are different standards for male and females? This means the truth is somewhere else.
I'm of the mindset it's a matter of conscience at this point. People need to be convinced in their own mind what they believe about it.
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Context of the singlular reference n scripture regarding head coverings , is when speaking out in prayer or prophecy. No mention of worship at all in that related passage.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head.
Now, you can claim it is silent or private prayer if you like, we can't prove it one way or the other, but we can't claim prophecy is silent or private. It is from the root word meaning to bring forth - and the context of 1 cor 11 is in the assembly.
There is no mention of "Worship" in the context at all.
Perhaps better to pretend it does not exist if using whilst "proving" your point about women being silent.
Also many of the same people would argue that prophesy has NOW ceased... and that a womans prayer is to be silent in church NOW.
So IF the woman cannot speak - PRAY or PROPHESY (teach or speak out the word of God), why is she wearing a head covering again? Once more, Worship isn't mentioned in the verse or context.
Personally I have zero issue with being silent, I do understand how many perceive certain verses, and why many disagree on this matter also - using scripture - and I do not argue both sides appear to be right there in the text.
I do find it odd that the same people demanding others hold to their view - or claim they are not observing the scripture if they do not. often totally ignore the context of the singular mention of when women should wear a head covering.
Of all the verses, this portion is pretty straight forward and the least confusing. It plainly says what it says and needs no explanation to be understood. It may appear to be contradictory, but that s because we are flawed, not the text. If we have to throw out a verse to keep our standpoint, or twist and complicate it awkwardly to get around the fact it just doesn't line up with our conclusions, we really need to be less dogmatic about those conclusions.
Divisions arise when we become divisive with scripture and quote what agrees with us, and we dismiss or try to nullify what disagrees with our way of understanding.
Worse still, we try to twist it to our narrative, to make it seem as if it proves our point somehow. Eek, and we have all done it even if we do not realise it. Myself included of course. Perhaps it is unwittingly, and perhaps we do it sincerely believing know what we are talking about, regardless of the fact we don't have it all right all the time.
It would be much nicer if we could say on such occasions, the scriptures say this... I take that to mean this.... but I confess I don't know why this other verse says this... It seems not to entirely line up with the understanding I got from the other few scriptures on the issue, but given it is just a singular verse, my reasoning is the my view is the best conclusion I can come up with personally.
I have said my piece and I know it won't please everyone, but so be it. This issue is a divisive topic and I think the best we can do is agree to disagree where there are verses that don't fit either narrative, as is so often the case.
Hope it stays amicable.
God bless y'all
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head.
Now, you can claim it is silent or private prayer if you like, we can't prove it one way or the other, but we can't claim prophecy is silent or private. It is from the root word meaning to bring forth - and the context of 1 cor 11 is in the assembly.
There is no mention of "Worship" in the context at all.
Perhaps better to pretend it does not exist if using whilst "proving" your point about women being silent.
Also many of the same people would argue that prophesy has NOW ceased... and that a womans prayer is to be silent in church NOW.
So IF the woman cannot speak - PRAY or PROPHESY (teach or speak out the word of God), why is she wearing a head covering again? Once more, Worship isn't mentioned in the verse or context.
Personally I have zero issue with being silent, I do understand how many perceive certain verses, and why many disagree on this matter also - using scripture - and I do not argue both sides appear to be right there in the text.
I do find it odd that the same people demanding others hold to their view - or claim they are not observing the scripture if they do not. often totally ignore the context of the singular mention of when women should wear a head covering.
Of all the verses, this portion is pretty straight forward and the least confusing. It plainly says what it says and needs no explanation to be understood. It may appear to be contradictory, but that s because we are flawed, not the text. If we have to throw out a verse to keep our standpoint, or twist and complicate it awkwardly to get around the fact it just doesn't line up with our conclusions, we really need to be less dogmatic about those conclusions.
Divisions arise when we become divisive with scripture and quote what agrees with us, and we dismiss or try to nullify what disagrees with our way of understanding.
Worse still, we try to twist it to our narrative, to make it seem as if it proves our point somehow. Eek, and we have all done it even if we do not realise it. Myself included of course. Perhaps it is unwittingly, and perhaps we do it sincerely believing know what we are talking about, regardless of the fact we don't have it all right all the time.
It would be much nicer if we could say on such occasions, the scriptures say this... I take that to mean this.... but I confess I don't know why this other verse says this... It seems not to entirely line up with the understanding I got from the other few scriptures on the issue, but given it is just a singular verse, my reasoning is the my view is the best conclusion I can come up with personally.
I have said my piece and I know it won't please everyone, but so be it. This issue is a divisive topic and I think the best we can do is agree to disagree where there are verses that don't fit either narrative, as is so often the case.
Hope it stays amicable.
God bless y'all
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A nicve bit of make believe, invented to circumvent the scriptures.
No where in scripture does it say because there is no male or female in the spirit anyone can do anything.
Your elevator example is laughable. people who preach to unbelievers do not get anywhere. The example is nothing more and nothing less than sharing which we are all called to do. She is not preaching in the assembly.
Older women in the church. Can this be a form of preaching? NO, as a study of the life of the New Testament Church will show. The majority of their time was spent doing things together and they conversed whilst they were working.
A mother's authority is given to her by her husband. Again she is not preaching to the congregation. In NT times no woman would be the boss.
Contrary to popular belief, a husband does have authority over his wife. You do not submit unless the person has authority. Nowhere in scripture does it say husbands and wives are partners and they make decisions together. She would not think of disobeyiong her husband so she would go along with what he says.
You need to read books that delve into the background of the New Testament Church as I have done about 20 in all.
No where in scripture does it say because there is no male or female in the spirit anyone can do anything.
Your elevator example is laughable. people who preach to unbelievers do not get anywhere. The example is nothing more and nothing less than sharing which we are all called to do. She is not preaching in the assembly.
Older women in the church. Can this be a form of preaching? NO, as a study of the life of the New Testament Church will show. The majority of their time was spent doing things together and they conversed whilst they were working.
A mother's authority is given to her by her husband. Again she is not preaching to the congregation. In NT times no woman would be the boss.
Contrary to popular belief, a husband does have authority over his wife. You do not submit unless the person has authority. Nowhere in scripture does it say husbands and wives are partners and they make decisions together. She would not think of disobeyiong her husband so she would go along with what he says.
You need to read books that delve into the background of the New Testament Church as I have done about 20 in all.
Another believe me what I say supersedes what the scripture says. Amazing how many people who do not have the gift of teaching try and make the scripture say what it doesn't say.
I must admit it is the first time I have read that a women's authority is justifed because Jesus turned the water into wine. FYI, it has nothing at all to do with women in leadership.
If you have not dwelt on the question of woman pastors/preachers you should not be writing about it. For me, it can take me up to two years to investigate a subject before I put pen to paper. To do otherwise is to insult the reader.
I don't know where you got this idea that we think women are a step lesser than men?
Whether women have wisdom or not is irrelevant. All that matters is what the scriptures teach.
As for Jesus obeying his mother, I can't see anywhere in scripture that is a qualification for women to be Elders.
John 2 v 1-11. Context dear girl, context. This passage does not deal with leadership in the church.
There is nowhere in scripture that says a women can lead because she is good at leading. The scripture is clear. An Elder is always a man (Timothy and Titus). Clear as day. Husband of one wife. How can a woman be the husband of one wife?
"For when the dead shall rise..."What has that got to do with leadership in the church?
The word equal is not in scripture as regards men and women. If you had bothered to read up the background to the New Testament church you would have found out that it emancipated women. under Rome they were treated like chattels. Under the church they were treated with respect and care. But they did not see the need to usurp the authority of men.
I must admit it is the first time I have read that a women's authority is justifed because Jesus turned the water into wine. FYI, it has nothing at all to do with women in leadership.
If you have not dwelt on the question of woman pastors/preachers you should not be writing about it. For me, it can take me up to two years to investigate a subject before I put pen to paper. To do otherwise is to insult the reader.
I don't know where you got this idea that we think women are a step lesser than men?
Whether women have wisdom or not is irrelevant. All that matters is what the scriptures teach.
As for Jesus obeying his mother, I can't see anywhere in scripture that is a qualification for women to be Elders.
John 2 v 1-11. Context dear girl, context. This passage does not deal with leadership in the church.
There is nowhere in scripture that says a women can lead because she is good at leading. The scripture is clear. An Elder is always a man (Timothy and Titus). Clear as day. Husband of one wife. How can a woman be the husband of one wife?
"For when the dead shall rise..."What has that got to do with leadership in the church?
The word equal is not in scripture as regards men and women. If you had bothered to read up the background to the New Testament church you would have found out that it emancipated women. under Rome they were treated like chattels. Under the church they were treated with respect and care. But they did not see the need to usurp the authority of men.
[/QUOTE] Another believe me what I say supersedes what the scripture says. Amazing how many people who do not have the gift of teaching try and make the scripture say what it doesn't say.
I must admit it is the first time I have read that a women's authority is justifed because Jesus turned the water into wine. FYI, it has nothing at all to do with women in leadership.
If you have not dwelt on the question of woman pastors/preachers you should not be writing about it. For me, it can take me up to two years to investigate a subject before I put pen to paper. To do otherwise is to insult the reader.
I don't know where you got this idea that we think women are a step lesser than men?
Whether women have wisdom or not is irrelevant. All that matters is what the scriptures teach.
As for Jesus obeying his mother, I can't see anywhere in scripture that is a qualification for women to be Elders.
John 2 v 1-11. Context dear girl, context. This passage does not deal with leadership in the church.
There is nowhere in scripture that says a women can lead because she is good at leading. The scripture is clear. An Elder is always a man (Timothy and Titus). Clear as day. Husband of one wife. How can a woman be the husband of one wife?
"For when the dead shall rise..."What has that got to do with leadership in the church?
The word equal is not in scripture as regards men and women. If you had bothered to read up the background to the New Testament church you would have found out that it emancipated women. under Rome they were treated like chattels. Under the church they were treated with respect and care. But they did not see the need to usurp the authority of men.[/QUOTE]
The family is miniature version of the Church. If there is no man of the house, it is the woman of the house who leads. Or should it be the 10 year old male kid who is looked upon as the leader?
Women are not treated with respect due for an individual when they are widowed where I come from. For a man, it is different where I'm from. I've seen first hand how widowed women get treated in Church. It's a shameful thing. And I've also seen how women who get separated from their husband get treated as well, in church, in society, among relatives. I'm talking about Christian communities. It does not apply to "All Christian communities". But there are such exceptions and it's bound to be, because this is the world we live in.
The church should be a place which empowers women to face the real world with leadership qualities. At least you have to be progressive enough to understand how society has changed. It should not do the opposite. Silence them from leading. Then what's the point of going to Church for women anyway? What is the point if women cannot teach to the people what the Word of God says? It's the same as the rest of human society. Chauvinistic.
You said the Bible passage I quoted lacked context. On the contrary, if you look at it, Jesus believes that it is not his time to start His mission on earth in John Chapter 2:1-11. Whereas Mary, His mother tells Him to start his work. First miracle. And the disciples seeing that miracle, believed in Jesus. That's what the Scripture says. If that doesn't look like leadership to you, then I don't know what does. No incident in the Bible that is recorded happened without a reason. What I quoted wasn't without context.
Being a Christian means that you're saved, so you must think that heaven is where you are even when you are on earth. That's how I look at it. I guess everyone has their own perspective. "Rising from the dead" is the foundation of being a Christian. It's one of the promises our faith rests upon as Christians. We believe in Christ and His salvation for us. Heaven begins on earth. You don't have to wait to go to heaven to experience it. You make heaven your home on earth too. That's how I look at it at least. It's my perspective.
As for women teaching the Bible in Church which happens to be the crux of this discussion. Be it any denomination of the Church. Nowhere does it say in the Bible that women cannot teach the Word of God in Church. I've heard women giving the Sunday teaching at the Church where I go to for Sunday service. And when they teach, how can they teach without quoting the Word of God??
History speaks differently than what you seem to think. Women have, can and will lead people. You'll just have to get used to it. If not you can remain uncomfortable about it. Up to you.
FYI I am no girl. And I don't need your patronage Sir, I'm good. I said before in my discussion that you can take what is good from what I've shared. If this discussion gives a change of heart for people who might think on the contrary to what I think even to the degree of 1% then I consider that a victory. Because I happen to believe that Christians are not that hard of heart. At least not all of them.
I must admit it is the first time I have read that a women's authority is justifed because Jesus turned the water into wine. FYI, it has nothing at all to do with women in leadership.
If you have not dwelt on the question of woman pastors/preachers you should not be writing about it. For me, it can take me up to two years to investigate a subject before I put pen to paper. To do otherwise is to insult the reader.
I don't know where you got this idea that we think women are a step lesser than men?
Whether women have wisdom or not is irrelevant. All that matters is what the scriptures teach.
As for Jesus obeying his mother, I can't see anywhere in scripture that is a qualification for women to be Elders.
John 2 v 1-11. Context dear girl, context. This passage does not deal with leadership in the church.
There is nowhere in scripture that says a women can lead because she is good at leading. The scripture is clear. An Elder is always a man (Timothy and Titus). Clear as day. Husband of one wife. How can a woman be the husband of one wife?
"For when the dead shall rise..."What has that got to do with leadership in the church?
The word equal is not in scripture as regards men and women. If you had bothered to read up the background to the New Testament church you would have found out that it emancipated women. under Rome they were treated like chattels. Under the church they were treated with respect and care. But they did not see the need to usurp the authority of men.[/QUOTE]
The family is miniature version of the Church. If there is no man of the house, it is the woman of the house who leads. Or should it be the 10 year old male kid who is looked upon as the leader?
Women are not treated with respect due for an individual when they are widowed where I come from. For a man, it is different where I'm from. I've seen first hand how widowed women get treated in Church. It's a shameful thing. And I've also seen how women who get separated from their husband get treated as well, in church, in society, among relatives. I'm talking about Christian communities. It does not apply to "All Christian communities". But there are such exceptions and it's bound to be, because this is the world we live in.
The church should be a place which empowers women to face the real world with leadership qualities. At least you have to be progressive enough to understand how society has changed. It should not do the opposite. Silence them from leading. Then what's the point of going to Church for women anyway? What is the point if women cannot teach to the people what the Word of God says? It's the same as the rest of human society. Chauvinistic.
You said the Bible passage I quoted lacked context. On the contrary, if you look at it, Jesus believes that it is not his time to start His mission on earth in John Chapter 2:1-11. Whereas Mary, His mother tells Him to start his work. First miracle. And the disciples seeing that miracle, believed in Jesus. That's what the Scripture says. If that doesn't look like leadership to you, then I don't know what does. No incident in the Bible that is recorded happened without a reason. What I quoted wasn't without context.
Being a Christian means that you're saved, so you must think that heaven is where you are even when you are on earth. That's how I look at it. I guess everyone has their own perspective. "Rising from the dead" is the foundation of being a Christian. It's one of the promises our faith rests upon as Christians. We believe in Christ and His salvation for us. Heaven begins on earth. You don't have to wait to go to heaven to experience it. You make heaven your home on earth too. That's how I look at it at least. It's my perspective.
As for women teaching the Bible in Church which happens to be the crux of this discussion. Be it any denomination of the Church. Nowhere does it say in the Bible that women cannot teach the Word of God in Church. I've heard women giving the Sunday teaching at the Church where I go to for Sunday service. And when they teach, how can they teach without quoting the Word of God??
History speaks differently than what you seem to think. Women have, can and will lead people. You'll just have to get used to it. If not you can remain uncomfortable about it. Up to you.
FYI I am no girl. And I don't need your patronage Sir, I'm good. I said before in my discussion that you can take what is good from what I've shared. If this discussion gives a change of heart for people who might think on the contrary to what I think even to the degree of 1% then I consider that a victory. Because I happen to believe that Christians are not that hard of heart. At least not all of them.
The husband and wife took him aside, away from the worship assembly, to their home, and explained the word of God more adequately. This is brothers and sister having a private conversation, this is not a woman preaching to the assembly.
Yes, like I said before, we are all priests in Christ, and we all have the responsibility to share the gospel. The church assembly has already obeyed the gospel for one, and women must not preach in the assembly over the men of the congregation. But let’s say a christian woman is gardening in her backyard, and her neighbor guy is talking to her over the fence. He asks her why she bothers going to church every week. Should she use that opportunity to share the gospel with him? Absolutely!
And just to be clear, in the old testament, God spoke His Word to prophets, and those prophets in turn spoke those words to His people- therefore prophesying. But now, in the new testament, we have God’s complete Word to us, thus if you have a bible you no longer need a prophet to tell you what God wants you to know- which is why they have ceased. We still prophesy today, but only by saying what’s already in the bible- that just about anyone can read for themselves. (if not, you read it to them). If the neighbor lady told her neighbor in that conversation that Jesus is going to come back... is that prophesying? Yep, that is a woman prophesying. Still doesn’t mean she can preach in the worship assembly over the men of the congregation- no matter what day of the week it is.
Yes, like I said before, we are all priests in Christ, and we all have the responsibility to share the gospel. The church assembly has already obeyed the gospel for one, and women must not preach in the assembly over the men of the congregation. But let’s say a christian woman is gardening in her backyard, and her neighbor guy is talking to her over the fence. He asks her why she bothers going to church every week. Should she use that opportunity to share the gospel with him? Absolutely!
And just to be clear, in the old testament, God spoke His Word to prophets, and those prophets in turn spoke those words to His people- therefore prophesying. But now, in the new testament, we have God’s complete Word to us, thus if you have a bible you no longer need a prophet to tell you what God wants you to know- which is why they have ceased. We still prophesy today, but only by saying what’s already in the bible- that just about anyone can read for themselves. (if not, you read it to them). If the neighbor lady told her neighbor in that conversation that Jesus is going to come back... is that prophesying? Yep, that is a woman prophesying. Still doesn’t mean she can preach in the worship assembly over the men of the congregation- no matter what day of the week it is.
I see your point, but what verse are you using to say that there is an idea of a "worship assembly?" Because the church isn't made with hands, it's a worldwide body of believers. We're all already united in the spirit through Christ. For example, you and I are at church together right now at this very moment because we're in the body of Christ despite our differences in geographic location.
It sounds like you're trying to say that it matters what our geographic location is. So if I am in a building with other believers in Christ then suddenly there are different rules than when someone is at home gardening? I'm trying to say there isn't. If there is, I can't find a verse that neatly explains how.
Conclusively, as far as I can tell, even though it is far from crystal clear, I think it's trying to say women can lead and teach men who are not their husband.
Hopefully these conversations will lead to a mutual agreement, but all too often they don't.
It sounds like you're trying to say that it matters what our geographic location is. So if I am in a building with other believers in Christ then suddenly there are different rules than when someone is at home gardening? I'm trying to say there isn't. If there is, I can't find a verse that neatly explains how.
Conclusively, as far as I can tell, even though it is far from crystal clear, I think it's trying to say women can lead and teach men who are not their husband.
Hopefully these conversations will lead to a mutual agreement, but all too often they don't.
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No matter how I explain my thought, the scripture still stands- whether you accept my example or not. Women are not to preach over the men of the congregation.
I agree that they talked while doing things, like laundry together, and in that format the older women taught the younger women. But what if there are over 300 of them? Haven’t you ever heard of Women’s Day? They open up the church building at a day and time that the assembly is gone, and there are no men in the audience, and older women get up one at a time and teach the younger women from the podium. Also, podcasts are shared in order to reach a large audience of young women who are too far apart to assemble in one meeting. How can you teach if you can’t reach their ears? There is nothing wrong with this.
A mother’s authority is not given to her by her husband, it is given to her by God- “Children obey your parentS in the Lord”- that means children are to obey both their father AND their mother.
No biblical example? When Sarah and Abraham were discussing sending Ishmael away with his mother, Abraham said ‘but he’s my son.’ Then God intervened saying “Abraham listen to your wife.” and Ishmael was sent away.
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