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I don't imagine those suffering such agonies are contemplating or considering their options, regretting for sure, but when you are in a lot of pain, such as in heavy labour, you don't really meditate or contemplate stuff, you just know it hurts and its hard to think about much else.
It is like any judgement, I am sure the man standing in the docks facing judge and jury, looking at a life sentence, wishes he hadn't made the choices he made to commit crime. He isn't necessarily repentant because he got caught, he has regret though.
Usually they just wish they hadn't got caught - and that they don't have to accept responsibility for their choices, as many reoffend when they finally get out of prison. Not all, but many do.
Being sorry you have to suffer is a different matter entirely to being sorry for your sin. Being repentant is different from being remorseful. We have the gift of life to make this choice, Jesus isn't playing games. He says there is forgiveness to as many as believe, but warns about those who die in their sin. That is the choice we make and we can't just play God on earth then change our minds when we have to face the consequences. He has been stretching out his arms to us all our lives, we have had plenty of time.
There are those who never hear the gosple, in which case they can't have rejected Him, and as he is no respecter of person, He will deal righteously as He sees fit with all of us, though I am unable to understand How that works in such cases. But other than that, our fate is sealed by the choices we make on earth, which path we chose, lies or truth, life or death. Its like stepping off a cliff, once you do it, that IS your choice.
Hope this helps.
It is like any judgement, I am sure the man standing in the docks facing judge and jury, looking at a life sentence, wishes he hadn't made the choices he made to commit crime. He isn't necessarily repentant because he got caught, he has regret though.
Usually they just wish they hadn't got caught - and that they don't have to accept responsibility for their choices, as many reoffend when they finally get out of prison. Not all, but many do.
Being sorry you have to suffer is a different matter entirely to being sorry for your sin. Being repentant is different from being remorseful. We have the gift of life to make this choice, Jesus isn't playing games. He says there is forgiveness to as many as believe, but warns about those who die in their sin. That is the choice we make and we can't just play God on earth then change our minds when we have to face the consequences. He has been stretching out his arms to us all our lives, we have had plenty of time.
There are those who never hear the gosple, in which case they can't have rejected Him, and as he is no respecter of person, He will deal righteously as He sees fit with all of us, though I am unable to understand How that works in such cases. But other than that, our fate is sealed by the choices we make on earth, which path we chose, lies or truth, life or death. Its like stepping off a cliff, once you do it, that IS your choice.
Hope this helps.
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Regardless of how Satan fell, or when, we do know that our fate is sealed by God if we are his, we are sealed by His Spirit.
The angels are not made in the image of God, we are. And believers are being conformed to the image of Christ, angels are not. We have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and He is causing us to Will and to Do Gods good pleasure, angels do not.
We are the body of Christ, united and one with Him in Spirit, we are Christs brethren, made anew and born again of Gods Spirit, sealed and it is promised that He who began a good work shall bring it to completion. It is the Lord who perfects that which concerns us, it is he who has saved us, His children, and it is He alone who will keep us.
We are eternally safe in His hands
No one can snatch us away.
The angels are not made in the image of God, we are. And believers are being conformed to the image of Christ, angels are not. We have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and He is causing us to Will and to Do Gods good pleasure, angels do not.
We are the body of Christ, united and one with Him in Spirit, we are Christs brethren, made anew and born again of Gods Spirit, sealed and it is promised that He who began a good work shall bring it to completion. It is the Lord who perfects that which concerns us, it is he who has saved us, His children, and it is He alone who will keep us.
We are eternally safe in His hands
No one can snatch us away.-
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When you begin to study Church history you quickly realize that “orthodox Christianity” is an oxymoron. Merriam Webster defines orthodox as, “conforming to established doctrine, especially in religion.” You might also hear it defined as “right doctrine.”
Orthodox suggests that there are certain truths and doctrines that have always been peacefully and consensually agreed upon, accepted by the majority of “people like us” throughout all the centuries.
These are the assumptions many of us grew up believing. We were handed an absolute narrative, told that it has withstood the test of time, and invited nicely to never question it ever… or else. Mainstream Christianity wants us to think there has always been a harmonious consensus, and those who question are not simply disagreeing with their pastor… oh no! You are going against 2,000 years of what “those who follow the Spirit of God” have always believed and accepted as truth.
While tradition and orthodoxy have been instrumental in preserving certain truths — Christian Orthodoxy preserved itself through fear and control, opting to protect it’s doctrinal “truth” through the active suppression of opposing ideas.
What’s particularly ironic is that the modern Evangelical Church tries hard to distance itself from the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church while the core of it’s theology comes directly out of the councils, doctrines, and creeds established by the early Roman Catholic and Latin Church.
The truth is that since the very beginning, Church history has been rife with unrest, conflict, and even bloodshed — it’s time to rethink the myth of orthodoxy, and begin re-evaluating what we’ve been taught.
For instance, many Christians insist that if you question hell, you are rejecting what has always been agreed upon by the Church, yet the doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others.
What we do see during this time is the expansion and proliferation of pagan myths about the afterlife, which were then repackaged as eternal, fiery torment in the Western (Catholic) Church, primarily by Latin theologians and Church leaders from Rome. It seems this was most likely motivated by political expediency. The idea of eternal torment was a prime tool for controlling the average churchgoer with fear and was congruent with secular mythologies of the time. Later, pop culture added fuel to the fire (pun intended) through imaginative works like Dante’s Inferno.
Orthodox suggests that there are certain truths and doctrines that have always been peacefully and consensually agreed upon, accepted by the majority of “people like us” throughout all the centuries.
These are the assumptions many of us grew up believing. We were handed an absolute narrative, told that it has withstood the test of time, and invited nicely to never question it ever… or else. Mainstream Christianity wants us to think there has always been a harmonious consensus, and those who question are not simply disagreeing with their pastor… oh no! You are going against 2,000 years of what “those who follow the Spirit of God” have always believed and accepted as truth.
While tradition and orthodoxy have been instrumental in preserving certain truths — Christian Orthodoxy preserved itself through fear and control, opting to protect it’s doctrinal “truth” through the active suppression of opposing ideas.
What’s particularly ironic is that the modern Evangelical Church tries hard to distance itself from the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church while the core of it’s theology comes directly out of the councils, doctrines, and creeds established by the early Roman Catholic and Latin Church.
The truth is that since the very beginning, Church history has been rife with unrest, conflict, and even bloodshed — it’s time to rethink the myth of orthodoxy, and begin re-evaluating what we’ve been taught.
For instance, many Christians insist that if you question hell, you are rejecting what has always been agreed upon by the Church, yet the doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others.
What we do see during this time is the expansion and proliferation of pagan myths about the afterlife, which were then repackaged as eternal, fiery torment in the Western (Catholic) Church, primarily by Latin theologians and Church leaders from Rome. It seems this was most likely motivated by political expediency. The idea of eternal torment was a prime tool for controlling the average churchgoer with fear and was congruent with secular mythologies of the time. Later, pop culture added fuel to the fire (pun intended) through imaginative works like Dante’s Inferno.
The scripture above is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. When He sends out His angels, they will be gathering the wicked who made it alive through the entire tribulation period. When they are killed, their spirits will also go into Hades and remain there until the great white throne judgment. Matthew 13:40-42 has nothing to do with those who are in Hades.
You are correct in that, the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment, but that does not do away with the fact that they will have already been suffering punishment in Hades.
God already knows those who belong to Him and who is destined for eternal punishment. The great white throne judgment will be the formal, legal process of sentencing those who died in their sins to the lake of fire. The great white throne judgment which takes place after the millennial kingdom, is the final or official judgment for sentencing.
scripture states that when the unsaved die, their spirits descend into Hades, which is what the event of the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16:19-31 supports. In addition, Revelation 20:11-15, which is a glimpse of the great white throne judgment, has the spirits of the unrighteous dead being released from Hades to be judged. Therefore, there are many spirits currently in Hades and it continues to receive the spirits of the unsaved 24/7.
"The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds."
"And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side."
Hades is the same place that the spirit of the rich man went to and who is still there. At the end of the millennial kingdom, just as the scripture above states, the spirits of those who will have been in torment in Hades will be released to stand before God for their official, legal trial.
Those who interpret the event of the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, distort the literal meanings contained in the context. In essence, by calling it a parable they get rid of it as a proof and then ask for more proof. Make no mistake, when the unsaved die, they immediately begin their punishment in Hades.
For the believer, at the time of death, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor.5:6-9, Phil.1:21-23). For those who die without Christ, like the rich man, their spirit departs and goes down into Hades to begin their punishment. The great white throne will just be the legal process of sentencing which will result in eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
You are correct in that, the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment, but that does not do away with the fact that they will have already been suffering punishment in Hades.
God already knows those who belong to Him and who is destined for eternal punishment. The great white throne judgment will be the formal, legal process of sentencing those who died in their sins to the lake of fire. The great white throne judgment which takes place after the millennial kingdom, is the final or official judgment for sentencing.
scripture states that when the unsaved die, their spirits descend into Hades, which is what the event of the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16:19-31 supports. In addition, Revelation 20:11-15, which is a glimpse of the great white throne judgment, has the spirits of the unrighteous dead being released from Hades to be judged. Therefore, there are many spirits currently in Hades and it continues to receive the spirits of the unsaved 24/7.
"The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds."
"And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side."
Hades is the same place that the spirit of the rich man went to and who is still there. At the end of the millennial kingdom, just as the scripture above states, the spirits of those who will have been in torment in Hades will be released to stand before God for their official, legal trial.
Those who interpret the event of the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, distort the literal meanings contained in the context. In essence, by calling it a parable they get rid of it as a proof and then ask for more proof. Make no mistake, when the unsaved die, they immediately begin their punishment in Hades.
For the believer, at the time of death, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor.5:6-9, Phil.1:21-23). For those who die without Christ, like the rich man, their spirit departs and goes down into Hades to begin their punishment. The great white throne will just be the legal process of sentencing which will result in eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
Right. While that isn't ever implicitly stated, it's inferred that souls in prison will probably have a positive reaction to the gospel of Christ. I mean, imagine dying in the great flood, waking up in prison, spending hundreds of years there, then Someone shows up with something called the Gospel of Christ and offers it to you. My response? Yes Please! Get me out of here!
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won't we be free? how free?
that's the question in the OP, tho applied to the other side of the great chasm.
i am thinking it's not about lack of freedom but about nature. that sure - we would be technically free to sin as Satan did; sin was found in Satan while he was in heaven. but we are new creations, and our bodies will be redeemed - that's fundamentally different than we are now, because now our flesh and our spirit still war against each other. then, we will be transformed and our flesh will not have desires contrary to our spirit anymore.
so this brings up an even harder question -- how is it that Satan sinned, in the first place? or to put it another way, why not Michael, why not Gabriel? was something different? scripture doesn't exactly give us this information. there are probably clues in the Bible about this, but i don't know them.
that's the question in the OP, tho applied to the other side of the great chasm.
i am thinking it's not about lack of freedom but about nature. that sure - we would be technically free to sin as Satan did; sin was found in Satan while he was in heaven. but we are new creations, and our bodies will be redeemed - that's fundamentally different than we are now, because now our flesh and our spirit still war against each other. then, we will be transformed and our flesh will not have desires contrary to our spirit anymore.
so this brings up an even harder question -- how is it that Satan sinned, in the first place? or to put it another way, why not Michael, why not Gabriel? was something different? scripture doesn't exactly give us this information. there are probably clues in the Bible about this, but i don't know them.
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