Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?
- Thread starter BenjaminN
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
So, Roman...calling himself by a Roman name. He could have then called Jesus, Yeshua..but he calls him Jesus.
Unbelieving Jews will believe the antichrist to be the messiah before he sets up the abomination that causes desolation. Then he will be exposed to unbelieving Jews as not being the messiah.
By the time of the abomination of desolation, most if not all God fearing Jews, will come to belief in Christ Yeshua's salvation, then (Zechariah 12:10). Believing Jews in Judea, will be fleeing into the mountains.
Zechariah 12 (New King James Version)
Mourning for the Pierced One
10“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Matthew 24 (New King James Version)
The Great Tribulation
15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
You are reading the much later English translated text, of the Jew Josephus' original writings. Read or ask assistance to read the Hebrew Josephus original text, if you would like to argue on that.
Mourning isn't the same as converting. Many people will greatly mourn the day Christ returns:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Same thing happens to all people on the Earth when Christ returns but this is not a worldwide conversion to Christianity. The unsaved mourn because they are sad and scared, ashamed of what they have done.
Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
They all are about to experience the vials of God's wrath which Revelation describes. Many will die.
Revelation also says they refuse to repent.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
The only time I see where repentance might be possible is during the Millennium when Satan no longer can deceive those that refused Christ. But at the second coming Satan still has the power to deceive and that deception is so strong people refuse to repent even through the painful vials of God's wrath. So, the time for Jews or any non-Christian to repent and finally recognize the Messiah would be the Millennium.
Also, Zec 12:10 was fulfilled the day Christ died according to these verses:
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
So John states these two prophecies were done/fulfilled at that time so it's incorrect to quote Zec 12:10 and apply it to the second coming anyways.
Romans 11 (New King James Version)
7What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 will come into fulfilment, when God replaces the "spirit of stupor" with :
Zechariah 12 (New King James Version)
7“The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Mourning for the Pierced One
10“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of [c]Megiddo. 12And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
"Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the gentiles until the time of the gentiles is complete".
The gt is Jacob's trouble.
He that prevents (letteth) can be a few things.
The Holy Spirit
The Angels
The church
God
But "prevent" remains.
Release is part of timing.
The ac is released FOR A PURPOSE.
IOW disobedience is a catalyst for judgement.
One follows the other.
The devil indirectly working for the kingdom.
We see it in job,and Also in the ac.
He is COMMISSIONED to kill the saints.
The ac is the line in the sand.
PURPOSE.
He has a purpose.
Withholding Him is the "letteth"
He who "withholds" is OF HEAVEN, and in a sense not as important as the theme of that statement.
1) Ac
2) is being withheld
3) will be released at a precise time
4) the witholder is taken away in order FOR the release.
5) enter the PURPOSE of the ac.....TO KILL the saints.
Take the mark or die.
His dirty work recorded in revelation as an "innumerable number " in heaven before the throne. Billions martyred.
No believers survive.
It is a messy job for the postrib rapture adherents, to try and tamper with the dynamics of purpose.
Pretrib rapture fits like a glove.
A good case indeed for the pretrib rapture.
Time of gentiles completed at the gathering of the bride pretrib. Those martyrs ,billions of them (the 5 foolish virgins) following,then the first fruits jews (144k) immediately preceeding main body of Jews,about mid trib or so.
All in rev 14.
I got a better one for you than that.
The ac comes on the scene fiercely. Christians rounded up by the millions.
Huge open air compounds are built to hold us.
Postribs now have such APPARENT "high ground" and mock pretrib agherents.
Ha ha ha, where us your stupid deliverer now?
Your false doctrine????
You invested in false doctrine and no groom,no escape. You stupid escape is a lie from hell."
Right about then there is a sunrise in the horizon about midnight. But it is the wrong color.
Jesus comes and takes only the wise virgins. Those waiting even in the imprisonment.
THANK YOU JESUS!!!!
MARANATHA. COME LORD JESUS!!!!!!
WOW,I am so glad to believe he is coming FOR HIS BRIDE.
"...but pray that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE the things about to come upon the world and stand before the son of God"
Yes,yes yes.
Lord Jesus don't let me miss the rapture.
Let me be counted worthy like the 5 wise virgins.
S
Scribe
Guest
Why can't it be Michael?
He that withholds will withhold until he be taken out of the way. It is not that clumsy of a saying to describe what Michael does as holding back till be be taken out of the way, as rising up and doing something that allows this to "prince of persia" like demonic son of Perdition to come on the scene.
Why wouldn't Michael be the one that is given the task of holding him back? Maybe that is why the story about the Prince of Persia holding back Gabriel is in the Bible. When Michael came to help him the Prince of Persia could not longer withstand Gabriel. Maybe this is the Mystery that God showed Paul that he taught to the Thessalonians on a previous visit and now he is repeating it.
That which withholds might be obscure. We don't know exactly how it works. Just like if it were not for Gabriel explaining it to Daniel we would never know that Gabriel could have been delayed by a Prince of Persia and that a Michael is more powerful and could come and help him. What a window into these affairs of principalities and powers in the spirit world. And yet it is still all mystery and unknown.
Could Daniel 12 be what Paul taught as that TRIGGER that would allow the Great Tribulation to come forth. This Michael rising up, or standing up action, whatever it is might be, could it be the "He that holds back, stops holding back?"
Am I the only one that thinks this is a better explanation since it is actually in Dan and matches the subject content. (Tribulation, resurrection, etc)
Revelation chapter 4 and 5: The 24 elders who are Kings and Priests with Golden crowns and sit on thrones. The seven branched candlestick which are the seven churches (ch 2&3) are now seen in in heaven Rev 4:5.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this represents the Raptured Church. Nothing else fits.
The tribulation begins in Revelation chapter 6. In Revelation chapter 7 you will see that the 24 elders are definitely not angels and they are not the living creatures and they are not the tribulation saints and they are not the 144,000 as all 5 categories are mentioned contemporaneously.
Trust me the 24 elders are the Raptured Church there's no doubt about it.
The pre-tribulation Rapture is boilerplate doctrine. Don't even worry about it. It's a done deal.
From "
Revelation 20 (New King James Version)
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 24 (New King James Version)
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James Version)
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 20 (New King James Version)
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Ezekiel 37 (New King James Version)
The Dry Bones Live
11Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’ ”
One Kingdom, One King
18“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
24“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26Moreover I will [c]make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”
Revelation 20 (New King James Version) - (compare Ezekiel 38 & 39)
Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Dry Bones Live
11Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’ ”
One Kingdom, One King
18“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
24“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26Moreover I will [c]make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”
Revelation 20 (New King James Version) - (compare Ezekiel 38 & 39)
Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:4-6 is the saints who were killed during the mark of the beast period, so that's during the great tribulation and that they are part of the first resurrection so they can reign in the millennial kingdom.
That doesn't work with pre-tribulation rapture theory because 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that the dead in Christ are raised first at the rapture which is when Jesus returns.
You can't have your first resurrection pre-tribulation and also during the great tribulation. (This is where mid-trib theory comes from btw)
Read context of Revelation 20:4-6 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
Post-tribulation solves the conundrum of pre-tribulation because in 2 Peter 3:10-13, at the return of Christ, the new heaven and new earth come after the old are destroyed.
So it's in this order for it to make sense:
1. Great tribulation
2. Jesus returns
3. First resurrection and rapture and beginning of millennial kingdom/new heaven/new earth
That doesn't work with pre-tribulation rapture theory because 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that the dead in Christ are raised first at the rapture which is when Jesus returns.
You can't have your first resurrection pre-tribulation and also during the great tribulation. (This is where mid-trib theory comes from btw)
Read context of Revelation 20:4-6 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
Post-tribulation solves the conundrum of pre-tribulation because in 2 Peter 3:10-13, at the return of Christ, the new heaven and new earth come after the old are destroyed.
So it's in this order for it to make sense:
1. Great tribulation
2. Jesus returns
3. First resurrection and rapture and beginning of millennial kingdom/new heaven/new earth
Agreed.
They are shown saying (in 5:9) "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hemas] to God by thy blood out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"
Here's the Greek (for Rev5:9) showing at BlueLetterBible - Revelation 5 (KJV) - And they sung a new (blueletterbible.org) showing them saying "us [G2248 - hemas]"... "hast redeemed US...".
(Also showing at BlueLetterBible is this same word used 3x in a similarly-worded couple of verses, in 1:5 and in 1:6 - Revelation 1 (KJV) - And from Jesus Christ who (blueletterbible.org) )
--of the 24 total manuscripts available (of the Greek) of Revelation chpt 5, 23 of them have it as "US [G2248 - hemas]" and only ONE manuscript leaves it blank [/untranslated].
(The ONE manuscript [of 24 total manuscripts (Rev5)] that leaves it blank/untranslated is the "Codex Alexandrinus". Some surmise that it was left blank/untranslated because of its positioning/placement, where the column break should have had the next word at the top be this word, but [as they surmise] the copyist inadvertently dropped it altogether in this particular manuscript... where the word is present in ALL 23 of the other manuscripts. This seems beyond dispute, to me... meaning, the fact that 23 of the 24 say "US" [and in the only other manuscript, is left blank/untranslated, aside from whatever was the reason for it...])
First, I believe "the Day of the Lord ARRIVES" speaks of a TIME-PERIOD [arriving at a particular point] (rather than firstly speaking of the Lord's Own Personal "RETURN" to the earth [Rev19]), and that "the DOTL [earthly time-period]" is just that, a time-period of LENGTHY DURATION "IN WHICH" *much* will transpire within it ( it is defined as "a period of time of JUDGMENTs followed by a period of time of BLESSINGs"... i.e. it consists of BOTH the Trib yrs *and* the MK yrs--all "earthly-located").
I think a big mistake people make when viewing what Peter has to say in 2Pet3:10-12 is that (IF they even look at the OT reference) they ONLY look at ONE VERSE (Isa34:4) extracted out from its ENTIRE CONTEXT, which CONTEXT is BOTH CHAPTERS of Isaiah 34 and 35... I encourage all readers of this thread to go back and READ BOTH CHPTS of Isa34-35 to grasp what Peter's point is in using this verse.
[Paul, in 1Th5:2-3, acknowledges that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ('the DOTL' earthly-time-period's) ARRIVAL... as the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that Jesus ALSO had already referred to in His Olivet Discourse]
I just showed with scripture that the first resurrection cannot include martyred saints from the great tribulation if the first resurrection occurs pre-tribulation.
2 Peter 3:10 is indisputably about the day of the Lord, meaning it is the return of Christ, coming like a thief. We can cross reference scripture and see that "coming like a thief in the night" in Jesus's own words in Matthew 24:42-44 in context of His second coming.
When Jesus comes it's the end of the world then during or shortly after it's the first resurrection then the millennial kingdom.