Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[awelight]

That is a good example of how those who think that Paul banned women from positions of ministry in church are following the spirit of the Pharisees and using OT scripture to support their positions, as they do indeed seem to need a list of rules to pride themselves in keeping howbeit those rules are often extrabiblical traditions based on bad interpretation of scriptures they do not understand.

You are ignoring good sound Bible warnings at your own peril. The warning in Leviticus is quite clear. It needs no interpretation. Perform a service outside of the Truth by doing what seems good in your own sight and risk condemnation. I didn't say that, God did.

For what it's worth, here is how Barnes saw this warning:

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron,.... His two eldest sons, as seems from Exo_6:23,

took either of them his censer; a vessel in which coals of fire were put, and incense upon them, and burnt it, and so it follows:
and put fire therein, and put incense thereon; which, as Aben Ezra says, was on the eighth day, that is, of their consecration, the day after their consecration was completely finished, and the same day that Aaron had offered the offerings for himself and for the people, see Lev_9:1,

and offered strange fire before the Lord; upon the golden altar of incense, which stood in the holy place right against the vail, within which were the ark, mercy seat, and cherubim, the symbol and seat of the divine Majesty: this fire was not that which came down from heaven, and consumed the sacrifice, as related at the end of the preceding chapter Lev_9:24, but common fire, and therefore called strange; it was not taken off of the altar of burnt offering, as it ought to have been, but, as the Targum of Jonathan, from under the trivets, skillets, or pots, such as the flesh of peace offerings were boiled in, in the tabernacle:

which he commanded not; yea, forbid, by sending fire from heaven, and ordering coals of fire for the incense to be taken off of the altar of burnt offering; and this, as Aben Ezra observes, they did of their own mind, and not by order. It does not appear that they had any command to offer incense at all at present, this belonged to Aaron, and not to them as yet; but without any instruction and direction they rushed into the holy place with their censers, and offered incense, even both of them, when only one priest was to offer at a time, when it was to be offered, and this they also did with strange fire.

This may be an emblem of dissembled love, when a man performs religious duties, prays to God, or praises him without any cordial affection to him, or obeys commands not from love, but selfish views; or of an ignorant, false, and misguided zeal, a zeal not according to knowledge, superstitious and hypocritical; or of false and strange doctrines, such as are not of God, nor agree with the voice of Christ, and are foreign to the Scriptures; or of human ordinances, and the inventions of men, and of everything that man brings of his own, in order to obtain eternal life and salvation.

 

[Dino246]

Ignoring the prohibition of woman preachers, is a modern equivalent to offering "strange fire". It places the non called person in danger and can endanger the whole congregation. (v.6).

There is no such prohibition... anywhere in Scripture, old or new testament.

 

[Scribe]

You are ignoring good sound Bible warnings at your own peril. The warning in Leviticus is quite clear. It needs no interpretation. Perform a service outside of the Truth by doing what seems good in your own sight and risk condemnation. I didn't say that, God did.

For what it's worth, here is how Barnes saw this warning:

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron,.... His two eldest sons, as seems from Exo_6:23,

took either of them his censer; a vessel in which coals of fire were put, and incense upon them, and burnt it, and so it follows:
and put fire therein, and put incense thereon; which, as Aben Ezra says, was on the eighth day, that is, of their consecration, the day after their consecration was completely finished, and the same day that Aaron had offered the offerings for himself and for the people, see Lev_9:1,

and offered strange fire before the Lord; upon the golden altar of incense, which stood in the holy place right against the vail, within which were the ark, mercy seat, and cherubim, the symbol and seat of the divine Majesty: this fire was not that which came down from heaven, and consumed the sacrifice, as related at the end of the preceding chapter Lev_9:24, but common fire, and therefore called strange; it was not taken off of the altar of burnt offering, as it ought to have been, but, as the Targum of Jonathan, from under the trivets, skillets, or pots, such as the flesh of peace offerings were boiled in, in the tabernacle:

which he commanded not; yea, forbid, by sending fire from heaven, and ordering coals of fire for the incense to be taken off of the altar of burnt offering; and this, as Aben Ezra observes, they did of their own mind, and not by order. It does not appear that they had any command to offer incense at all at present, this belonged to Aaron, and not to them as yet; but without any instruction and direction they rushed into the holy place with their censers, and offered incense, even both of them, when only one priest was to offer at a time, when it was to be offered, and this they also did with strange fire.

This may be an emblem of dissembled love, when a man performs religious duties, prays to God, or praises him without any cordial affection to him, or obeys commands not from love, but selfish views; or of an ignorant, false, and misguided zeal, a zeal not according to knowledge, superstitious and hypocritical; or of false and strange doctrines, such as are not of God, nor agree with the voice of Christ, and are foreign to the Scriptures; or of human ordinances, and the inventions of men, and of everything that man brings of his own, in order to obtain eternal life and salvation.

Yes, like banning women from Holy Spirit empowered callings to full time ministry of preaching the Word of God because they think that is what Paul said when it was not. They are going about to enforce a rule God never established and think they do God a service with their superstitions and hypocritical views. Strange fire indeed.

 

[Blade]

Hmm yet OT there were some women Prophets which is a higher office than preacher.

 

[UCA4J]

Hmm yet OT there were some women Prophets which is a higher office than preacher.

Deborah ?

 

[Scribe]

Deborah ?

Huldah the prophetess

You can tell by her words that she was a true prophet with the same kind of authority as Jeremiah.
The fact that the king sent his cabinet to her to hear THE WORD OF THE LORD proves that they were submitting to her authority when it came to hearing what the word of the prophet was on the subject.
This is Who God Is people. He can save by many or by few. He cannot be put in a box and told "you can only do things this way" If God wants to call a woman to be a might preacher of the Word no one is going to be able to get in her way. Woe to the man who declares her a sinner for obeying the call of God.

8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.

9 And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the Lord.

10 And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.

11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.

12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,

13 Go ye, enquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.

14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with her.

15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me,

16 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:

17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to enquire of the Lord, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;

19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the Lord, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the Lord.

20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

 

[UCA4J]

Huldah the prophetess

You can tell by her words that she was a true prophet with the same kind of authority as Jeremiah.
The fact that the king sent his cabinet to her to hear THE WORD OF THE LORD proves that they were submitting to her authority when it came to hearing what the word of the prophet was on the subject.
This is Who God Is people. He can save by many or by few. He cannot be put in a box and told "you can only do things this way" If God wants to call a woman to be a might preacher of the Word no one is going to be able to get in her way. Woe to the man who declares her a sinner for obeying the call of God.

8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.

9 And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the Lord.

10 And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.

11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.

12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,

13 Go ye, enquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.

14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with her.

15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me,

16 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:

17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to enquire of the Lord, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;

19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the Lord, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the Lord.

20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

so, not Deborah ?

 

[Scribe]

so, not Deborah ?

Deborah was a judge and a prophet.
And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

That should settle the issue but some misundersant her telling Barak who asked her to go with him that ...
9And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.
They think she was saying I will go with you but then a woman will get honor instead of you, as if she was speaking about herself. But she was talking about Jael who would kill Sisera with the tent peg. God had showed her that.

 

[UCA4J]

Deborah was a judge and a prophet.
And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

That should settle the issue but some misundersant her telling Barak who asked her to go with him that ...
9And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.
They think she was saying I will go with you but then a woman will get honor instead of you, as if she was speaking about herself. But she was talking about Jael who would kill Sisera with the tent peg. God had showed her that.

so Deb wasn't a pastor ?

 

[Scribe]

so Deb wasn't a pastor ?

Pastor of a nation

 

[UCA4J]

Pastor of a nation

oh ok

 

[Scribe]

so Deb wasn't a pastor ?

There is no scripture that says a woman cannot be a pastor. The scriptures used as support of this idea is based on a woman not having authority over a man. I think Deborah destroys that argument. Both Huldah and Deborah reveal that it was not even an old testament idea that God could not use a Woman to have authority in both civil and spiritual matters. Pentecost reveals that it is also Gods will to include women in fulfilling the great commission to be a witness of Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit to all nations. Teaching them all things that Jesus has commanded.
Therefore it is impossible to make Paul exclude women from having authority and spiritual empowerment for ministry since God has already made it clear that they are included. Obviously people have misunderstood what Paul was saying.

 

[Dino246]

I'd like to hear the complementarian interpretations on 1 Corinthians 14:36. Why is Paul saying these words here, in your view?

 

[Budman]

Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

No.

God instituted an authority structure, and God has reserved the position of Pastor to men only. Just as the man is the spiritual leader in his home, women are not to teach men in that authority position.

Feminists hate that idea, but biblically grounded women have no issue with it.

 

[Scribe]

Ordination And The Role Of Women In Ministry

WHEREAS, We, the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Kansas City, June 12-14, 1984, recognize the authority of Scripture in all matters of faith and practice including the autonomy of the local church; and
WHEREAS, The New Testament enjoins all Christians to proclaim the gospel; and
WHEREAS, The New Testament churches as a community of faith recognized God’s ordination and anointing of some believers for special ministries (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:7; Titus 1:15) and in consequence of their demonstrated loyalty to the gospel, conferred public blessing and engaged in public dedicatory prayer setting them apart for service; and
WHEREAS, The New Testament does not mandate that all who are divinely called to ministry be ordained; and
WHEREAS, In the New Testament, ordination symbolizes spiritual succession to the world task of proclaiming and extending the gospel of Christ, and not a sacramental transfer of unique divine grace that perpetuates apostolic authority; and
WHEREAS, The New Testament emphasizes the equal dignity of men and women (Gal. 3:28) and that the Holy Spirit was at Pentecost divinely outpoured on men and women alike (Acts 2:17); and
WHEREAS, Women as well as men prayed and prophesied in public worship services (1 Cor. 11:2-16), and Priscilla joined her husband in teaching Apollos (Acts 18:26), and women fulfilled special church service-ministries as exemplified by Phoebe whose work Paul tributes as that of a servant of the church (Rom. 16:1); and
WHEREAS, The Scriptures attest to God’s delegated order of authority (God the head of Christ, Christ the head of man, man the head of woman, man and woman dependent one upon the other to the glory of God) distinguishing the roles of men and women in public prayer and prophecy (1 Cor. 11:2-5); and
WHEREAS, The Scriptures teach that women are not in public worship to assume a role of authority over men lest confusion reign in the local church (1 Cor. 14:33-36); and
WHEREAS, While Paul commends women and men alike in other roles of ministry and service (Titus 2:1-10), he excludes women from pastoral leadership (1 Tim. 2:12) to preserve a submission God requires because the man was first in creation and the woman was first in the Edenic fall (1 Tim. 2:13ff); and
WHEREAS, These Scriptures are not intended to stifle the creative contribution of men and women as co-workers in many roles of church service, both on distant mission fields and in domestic ministries, but imply that women and men are nonetheless divinely gifted for distinctive areas of evangelical engagement; and
WHEREAS, Women are held in high honor for their unique and significant contribution to the advancement of Christ’s kingdom, and the building of godly homes should be esteemed for its vital contribution to developing personal Christian character and Christlike concern for others.
Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That we not decide concerns of Christians doctrine and practice by modern cultural, sociological, and ecclesiastical trends or by emotional factors; that we remind ourselves of the dearly bought Baptist principle of the final authority of Scripture in matters of faith and conduct; and that we encourage the service of women in all aspects of church life and work other than pastoral functions and leadership roles entailing ordination.

https://www.sbc.net/resource-librar...ordination-and-the-role-of-women-in-ministry/

 

[awelight]

Yes, like banning women from Holy Spirit empowered callings to full time ministry of preaching the Word of God because they think that is what Paul said when it was not. They are going about to enforce a rule God never established and think they do God a service with their superstitions and hypocritical views. Strange fire indeed.

You say that we that oppose women being able to preach or teach in the assembly meeting are incorrect in this view but you offer no counter argument from Paul. If you are correct in your view, prove it in Scripture. I find no such instructions.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

You say that we that oppose women being able to preach or teach in the assembly meeting are incorrect in this view but you offer no counter argument from Paul. If you are correct in your view, prove it in Scripture. I find no such instructions.

Do you believe adult women can teach adult men outside of the church (both religious and non religious topics)? Do the verses which state that men have authority over women spill over in every aspect of life?

 

[Theia]

Thankful to see there are comments in disagreement with the statement...phew, the human race is not so doomed after all!

 

[CS1]

You are ignoring good sound Bible warnings at your own peril. The warning in Leviticus is quite clear. It needs no interpretation. Perform a service outside of the Truth by doing what seems good in your own sight and risk condemnation. I didn't say that, God did.

For what it's worth, here is how Barnes saw this warning:

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron,.... His two eldest sons, as seems from Exo_6:23,

took either of them his censer; a vessel in which coals of fire were put, and incense upon them, and burnt it, and so it follows:
and put fire therein, and put incense thereon; which, as Aben Ezra says, was on the eighth day, that is, of their consecration, the day after their consecration was completely finished, and the same day that Aaron had offered the offerings for himself and for the people, see Lev_9:1,

and offered strange fire before the Lord; upon the golden altar of incense, which stood in the holy place right against the vail, within which were the ark, mercy seat, and cherubim, the symbol and seat of the divine Majesty: this fire was not that which came down from heaven, and consumed the sacrifice, as related at the end of the preceding chapter Lev_9:24, but common fire, and therefore called strange; it was not taken off of the altar of burnt offering, as it ought to have been, but, as the Targum of Jonathan, from under the trivets, skillets, or pots, such as the flesh of peace offerings were boiled in, in the tabernacle:

which he commanded not; yea, forbid, by sending fire from heaven, and ordering coals of fire for the incense to be taken off of the altar of burnt offering; and this, as Aben Ezra observes, they did of their own mind, and not by order. It does not appear that they had any command to offer incense at all at present, this belonged to Aaron, and not to them as yet; but without any instruction and direction they rushed into the holy place with their censers, and offered incense, even both of them, when only one priest was to offer at a time, when it was to be offered, and this they also did with strange fire.

This may be an emblem of dissembled love, when a man performs religious duties, prays to God, or praises him without any cordial affection to him, or obeys commands not from love, but selfish views; or of an ignorant, false, and misguided zeal, a zeal not according to knowledge, superstitious and hypocritical; or of false and strange doctrines, such as are not of God, nor agree with the voice of Christ, and are foreign to the Scriptures; or of human ordinances, and the inventions of men, and of everything that man brings of his own, in order to obtain eternal life and salvation.

the women at the well preached Elizbeth Prophised Mary Propheised Hanna Prophesied The Holy Spirit is poured out on Women just as men they can witness, preach under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They can pray for the sick they can teach

 

[Scribe]

You say that we that oppose women being able to preach or teach in the assembly meeting are incorrect in this view but you offer no counter argument from Paul. If you are correct in your view, prove it in Scripture. I find no such instructions.

I presented interpretation of the scriptures involved numerous times during the previous posts. We discussed them at length. You and others have presented your interpretation and I presented what I think was a more natural interpretation of authorial intent. Then you began to pronounce anathemas on those that did not interpret your way as being against God and offering strange fire, and I found your logic to apply more to your own hermeneutic than to those that oppose you.

Now you are back at the beginning of an endless loop wanting to discuss interpretation again. Ok fine. Present which scripture you would like to discuss and we can analyze it by walking through the common rules of interpretation and see which interpretation complies with all of the rules and seems to be the most natural interpretation of authorial intent.

Starting with 1 Tim 2 and the statement "I suffer not a woman to teach nor usurp authority over a man" Your interpretation of this is that it banns women from preaching and teaching in the church. My interpretation of this is that it is understood as the same subject matter we read in 1 Pet 3 and is specifically talking about the attitude of the wife toward the husband. I find 1 Pet 3 comparison STRONG evidence that I have identified authorial intent (both Paul and the Holy Spirit intent) and that Paul did not have public preaching in mind. I believe that Teaching here (the Greek word used only one time in the NT in this verse only) is to probably like Correction, or Enforcing opinion over the husbands opposing opinion. I believe that Usurping authority over the man is an explanation of the meaning of the kind of Teaching he was talking about. This does not happen when a women teaches the Bible even though you think that it does, I do not agree with that understanding.

I have presented this at length already and we have discussed it over and over. You and I will have to disagree. You can announce anathemas upon those that don't believe that your hermeneutic is superiors to mine but it won't scare anyone. Truth is my objective. Pleasing God will be accomplished by grasping the message that the Holy Spirit intended not by adherence to loud threats of condemnation for not agreeing with bad hermeneutics. If I feel pressure to accept what I consider a bad interpretation at the risk of judgment I know that is coming from the enemy and a good reason to think that hermeneutic is probably the wrong one. Doing things God's way is my goal and sometimes that means healing on the sabbath.