Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??
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Having made a study of the New Testament Church for the last 10 years, I can honestly say without equivication that you are wrong.
First of all, pastors were not the people that were in charge of the New Testament Church (NTC) Always without exception, the church was under the authority of a plurality of Elders. Timothy and Titus makes this abundantly clear and there are another 23 verses that refer to the leadership of the church in the New Testament and they mention three people. Apostles, prophets and Elders. Not one of them mentions a pastor.
Not once does the scriptures mention a wife being a co-pastor (leader) with their husbands.
Not once does the scriptures talk abut any woman teaching.
Not once does the scripture put women on the same level as men as far as leadership and teaching is concerned.
When it comes to the role women play in the church it says that the older women should teach the younger women to be good wives, not to be expositors of the word.
And no one has or can explain to me how a woman can be the husband of one wife. Until you can sort that out no woman is fulfilling her role as a pastor.
I will finish with your own words....again that is your opinion you do not know what the office of pastor does nor do you understand the word of a pastor one can do.
First of all, pastors were not the people that were in charge of the New Testament Church (NTC) Always without exception, the church was under the authority of a plurality of Elders. Timothy and Titus makes this abundantly clear and there are another 23 verses that refer to the leadership of the church in the New Testament and they mention three people. Apostles, prophets and Elders. Not one of them mentions a pastor.
Not once does the scriptures mention a wife being a co-pastor (leader) with their husbands.
Not once does the scriptures talk abut any woman teaching.
Not once does the scripture put women on the same level as men as far as leadership and teaching is concerned.
When it comes to the role women play in the church it says that the older women should teach the younger women to be good wives, not to be expositors of the word.
And no one has or can explain to me how a woman can be the husband of one wife. Until you can sort that out no woman is fulfilling her role as a pastor.
I will finish with your own words....again that is your opinion you do not know what the office of pastor does nor do you understand the word of a pastor one can do.
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And I can tell you that over the past 20 years of New Testament studies of church history, I can honestly say without equivocation that you are wrong.
First off Pastors are also known in the Greek as teachers. You need to studied again.
Not one time does it mention the wife of a pastor doesn't help her husband.
Yes the Bible does say women teach you find that is Titus 2:1-5
1 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
I am not going to take along drawn out explanation, however, women in the body of Christ and are also called the "church".
(1 Corinthians 14:23-25; see also1 Cor 11:5, 14:6, 20) Christian women are to do this too.
The Apostle Peter said, to women and men, “Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. ….” (1 Peter 4:10-11)
I will finish with my own words back to you .
"again that is your opinion you do not know what the office of pastor does nor do you understand the word of a pastor one can do."
First off Pastors are also known in the Greek as teachers. You need to studied again.
Not one time does it mention the wife of a pastor doesn't help her husband.
Yes the Bible does say women teach you find that is Titus 2:1-5
1 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
I am not going to take along drawn out explanation, however, women in the body of Christ and are also called the "church".
(1 Corinthians 14:23-25; see also1 Cor 11:5, 14:6, 20) Christian women are to do this too.
The Apostle Peter said, to women and men, “Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. ….” (1 Peter 4:10-11)
I will finish with my own words back to you .
"again that is your opinion you do not know what the office of pastor does nor do you understand the word of a pastor one can do."
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When someone quotes Scripture directly, they are justified in saying "This is what Scripture says". When someone gives a simple, straightforward explanation without bias, they are reasonably justified in making the claim. When someone makes the claim but quotes nothing and instead gives an obviously-biased explanation that mangles what the Scripture says, they've crossed the line and are conflating their own ideas with Scripture.
S
When someone starts declaring that one is "against God" for their views it provokes the other to present reasons why they think that the other's views are "against God" and soon both have departed from presenting rules of interpretation.
It is a well established form among theologians to present their case for interpretation of scriptures based on the rules of hermeneutics. (a list of agreed upon rules for interpreting scriptures)
Google "what are the rules of hermeneutic of scripture" these lists will differ slightly but it is easy to identify the main common rules among them.
Labeling people being "against God and His Word" if they don't feel you have made your case is not one of the rules. LOL
Use those rules to present your case. If your case is strong doing this exercise will convince the sincere who are truly seeking the authorial intent of these passages. If your case is weak (i.e. fails in one or more of the rules) then you must be sincere and take a second look at your preconceived suppositions.)
And some subjects of interpretation such as identifying the authorial intent of 1 Tim 2:12 is not a salvation issue. Therefore we need to allow for each person to be fully persuaded in their own minds without accusing them or being "against God or His Word".
If someone presents their case on interpreting 1 Tim 2:12 in the light of 1 Pet 3 they have presented a case that is using one of the rules of hermeneutics. (textual context or theological textual context from similar passages in the New Testament)
If you want to rebut their comparison of these two passages as meaningful you must present the reason why this application fails the rule of textual context. If you can't then you must concede that it passes the test of that rule.
No one is talking about teaching that fornication is ok, (Nicolaitans) and so we don't need any anathemas or declarations of judgments upon them as false brethren and headed to the Lake of Fire simply because they don't agree that one is interpreting the scriptures about women speaking in the church correctly.
It always a sign of immaturity for us to declare everyone on the road to perdition that does not agree with out interpretation. Threats like that simply mean you have not done the work to present a case using rules of hermeneutics which is all that is necessary for a civil discussion here in CC. If we find that we have come to an impasse then we simply must leave the discussion as open and we can each continue to examine the scriptures to see if they support our current understanding or if we have made a mistake in interpretation and we should be willing to change our views based on that new light.
Never is there a need to end our contributions to the threads by declaring that everyone else is resisting God for not seeing what we think we see. It is not one of the rules of hermeneutics. It is an emotional dig, a vent of frustration, a form of murdering your opponent in your heart, a stab in the back upon departing, and if anything it casts doubt on our ability to have understanding in the spiritual things of God, because, remember that if we are not walking in love our gifts of interpretation might be tainted.
It is a well established form among theologians to present their case for interpretation of scriptures based on the rules of hermeneutics. (a list of agreed upon rules for interpreting scriptures)
Google "what are the rules of hermeneutic of scripture" these lists will differ slightly but it is easy to identify the main common rules among them.
Labeling people being "against God and His Word" if they don't feel you have made your case is not one of the rules. LOL
Use those rules to present your case. If your case is strong doing this exercise will convince the sincere who are truly seeking the authorial intent of these passages. If your case is weak (i.e. fails in one or more of the rules) then you must be sincere and take a second look at your preconceived suppositions.)
And some subjects of interpretation such as identifying the authorial intent of 1 Tim 2:12 is not a salvation issue. Therefore we need to allow for each person to be fully persuaded in their own minds without accusing them or being "against God or His Word".
If someone presents their case on interpreting 1 Tim 2:12 in the light of 1 Pet 3 they have presented a case that is using one of the rules of hermeneutics. (textual context or theological textual context from similar passages in the New Testament)
If you want to rebut their comparison of these two passages as meaningful you must present the reason why this application fails the rule of textual context. If you can't then you must concede that it passes the test of that rule.
No one is talking about teaching that fornication is ok, (Nicolaitans) and so we don't need any anathemas or declarations of judgments upon them as false brethren and headed to the Lake of Fire simply because they don't agree that one is interpreting the scriptures about women speaking in the church correctly.
It always a sign of immaturity for us to declare everyone on the road to perdition that does not agree with out interpretation. Threats like that simply mean you have not done the work to present a case using rules of hermeneutics which is all that is necessary for a civil discussion here in CC. If we find that we have come to an impasse then we simply must leave the discussion as open and we can each continue to examine the scriptures to see if they support our current understanding or if we have made a mistake in interpretation and we should be willing to change our views based on that new light.
Never is there a need to end our contributions to the threads by declaring that everyone else is resisting God for not seeing what we think we see. It is not one of the rules of hermeneutics. It is an emotional dig, a vent of frustration, a form of murdering your opponent in your heart, a stab in the back upon departing, and if anything it casts doubt on our ability to have understanding in the spiritual things of God, because, remember that if we are not walking in love our gifts of interpretation might be tainted.
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S
Never is there a need to end our contributions to the threads by declaring that everyone else is resisting God for not seeing what we think we see. It is not one of the rules of hermeneutics. It is an emotional dig, a vent of frustration, a form of murdering your opponent in your heart, a stab in the back upon departing, and if anything it casts doubt on our ability to have understanding in the spiritual things of God, because, remember that if we are not walking in love our gifts of interpretation might be tainted.
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I did not declare everyone else to be resisting God.
Scripture declares that not everyone who says Lord knows the Lord. Those who support women pastors are not in alignment with God.
You can protest hermeneutics and Greek but you cannot prevail against God. Pastors are not to be single men and they are not to be women. Those who accept these things get exactly what they want. They do not desire Godly leadership because they do not want to be corrected in their lifestyles.
Is the church influencing the modern culture or is the church being influenced by the modern culture?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Scripture declares that not everyone who says Lord knows the Lord. Those who support women pastors are not in alignment with God.
You can protest hermeneutics and Greek but you cannot prevail against God. Pastors are not to be single men and they are not to be women. Those who accept these things get exactly what they want. They do not desire Godly leadership because they do not want to be corrected in their lifestyles.
Is the church influencing the modern culture or is the church being influenced by the modern culture?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
S
If you want to leave hermeneutics and discuss the futility of prevailing against God I would suggest you take a step back from condemning women for preaching Jesus in the Church and anywhere else. If it is from God you will not be able to prevail against it, and if you haven't noticed, they are already doing it. Your opinions are not going to change it. God will have the final word not you. I believe it will be something like "well done my good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord"
There... I had the last word.
There... I had the last word.
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If you want to leave hermeneutics and discuss the futility of prevailing against God I would suggest you take a step back from condemning women for preaching Jesus in the Church and anywhere else. If it is from God you will not be able to prevail against it, and if you haven't noticed, they are already doing it. Your opinions are not going to change it. God will have the final word not you. I believe it will be something like "well done my good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord"
There... I had the last word.
There... I had the last word.
Let's hope the last word is not I-chabod.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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S
What is so sad is that those who think that God does not use women in any capacity He wants to in the church will not be able to experience the blessings and edification that comes from the giftings of EVERY MEMBER of the body of Christ and as a result will miss out greatly.
By following what might turn out to be nothing but a pharisaical rule of not listening to a woman preacher, based on a wrong interpretation of what Paul intended, and thinking that this will mark them as obedient to God's way, when all the time they are really just straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel theologically, not seeing that it would be JUST LIKE THE GOD OF THE BIBLE who said there is neither Jew nor Greek male nor female to anoint women to operate in the power of the Spirit in preaching and prophesying in the church. Just like the God I know to do something like that. Just to mark those who resist it as pharisees and expose them as not knowing God.
But they can't see it. They have a different view of God. Like the Pharisees who said "thank you God that I am not a gentile, a publican or a woman". And they think they do God a service for banning women from their pulpits but God is not pleased nor is he concerned about using their dried up dust gathering religious elitist social gospel club pulpits anyway. The Spirit moved on a century ago but they staid in their religious Pharisee mentality and somehow maintain their empty buildings from year to year while on the front lines of evangelism women preachers are turning the world upside down. Just Like God to do something like that.
You're hardcore declarations that God cannot heal on the sabbath is not going to win you any merits. Neither is demanding that women can't preach the everlasting Gospel in church or anywhere else where men are in the audience. Who do you think God really is? Beware of the leaven of the scribes and Pharisees who did this exact thing with rules about the sabbath that are being attempted with banning women from preaching ministry or pastoring. They thought they had scriptures to back them up. People think that Paul was banning women from being pastors but maybe he never intended that to be what he expected you to get from his words. There is enough room for doubt to make the honest person be careful and tread lightly.
There.. now I have had the last, last word.
By following what might turn out to be nothing but a pharisaical rule of not listening to a woman preacher, based on a wrong interpretation of what Paul intended, and thinking that this will mark them as obedient to God's way, when all the time they are really just straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel theologically, not seeing that it would be JUST LIKE THE GOD OF THE BIBLE who said there is neither Jew nor Greek male nor female to anoint women to operate in the power of the Spirit in preaching and prophesying in the church. Just like the God I know to do something like that. Just to mark those who resist it as pharisees and expose them as not knowing God.
But they can't see it. They have a different view of God. Like the Pharisees who said "thank you God that I am not a gentile, a publican or a woman". And they think they do God a service for banning women from their pulpits but God is not pleased nor is he concerned about using their dried up dust gathering religious elitist social gospel club pulpits anyway. The Spirit moved on a century ago but they staid in their religious Pharisee mentality and somehow maintain their empty buildings from year to year while on the front lines of evangelism women preachers are turning the world upside down. Just Like God to do something like that.
You're hardcore declarations that God cannot heal on the sabbath is not going to win you any merits. Neither is demanding that women can't preach the everlasting Gospel in church or anywhere else where men are in the audience. Who do you think God really is? Beware of the leaven of the scribes and Pharisees who did this exact thing with rules about the sabbath that are being attempted with banning women from preaching ministry or pastoring. They thought they had scriptures to back them up. People think that Paul was banning women from being pastors but maybe he never intended that to be what he expected you to get from his words. There is enough room for doubt to make the honest person be careful and tread lightly.
There.. now I have had the last, last word.
Lol are you serious?
What is the percentage of female preachers in church, even nowadays? Are you saying that churches that don't have female preachers have no problems? There's neeeeever anything unsavory going on and male preachers can't be false teachers right? I see also church was doing awesome doing the Middle ages when it was just men, lots of murder and torture, very salted and enlightened. You're worse than your forefather Adam the grand accuser and not owning up to his error.
What is the percentage of female preachers in church, even nowadays? Are you saying that churches that don't have female preachers have no problems? There's neeeeever anything unsavory going on and male preachers can't be false teachers right? I see also church was doing awesome doing the Middle ages when it was just men, lots of murder and torture, very salted and enlightened. You're worse than your forefather Adam the grand accuser and not owning up to his error.
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