Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Scribe]

I don't get your point here. This verse in the KJV reads:

Col 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. There is some disagreement here by some Greek scholars as to the feminine nature of the word translated house. Whether it goes to the person or the church. Ecclesia is always feminine. thus "house" maybe feminine because it is modifying "church". Either way, here is what John Gill had to say on this verse:

Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea,.... Where there was a church mentioned in the following verse, of which see on Gill Rev_2:10.
And Nymphas; which some, unskillful in the Greek language, have took for a woman; whereas it is the name of a man, as the following words show; and is a contraction of Nymphios, or Nymphidios, or Nymphodoros:
and the church which is in his house. This man seems to have been an inhabitant of Laodicea, and that the church there met at his house to worship God, to pray unto him, sing his praise, hear his word, and attend on all ordinances: or his own family was brought up so strictly to the observance of these things, that they looked like a little church of themselves.

All due respect to John Gill, he certainly knows more Greek than me, since I know nothing of the Greek language yet, but do plan to take three years in seminary and I am not really looking forward to it. However, the editors behind the ESV do know Greek and their combined knowledge probably exceeds John Gill but I really would not know. The ESV has become a favorite translation of mine, but many of the other English translations seem to agree that it should be "her"

I don't think it was Paul's intention of Calling Nymphas family his church.

All the following English translations use her and that is a lot of Greek Scholars combined.
New International Version
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

New Living Translation
Please give my greetings to our brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house.

English Standard Version
Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

Berean Study Bible
Greet the brothers in Laodicea, as well as Nympha and the church that meets at her house.

Berean Literal Bible
Greet the brothers in Laodicea, and also Nympha and the church in her house.

King James Bible
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

New King James Version
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.

New American Standard Bible
Greet the brothers and sisters who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

NASB 1995
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

NASB 1977
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

Amplified Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house.

Christian Standard Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters in Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her home.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers in Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her home.

American Standard Version
Salute the brethren that are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church that is in their house.

Contemporary English Version
Give my greetings to the followers at Laodicea, especially to Nympha and the church that meets in her home.

 

[Scribe]

All due respect to John Gill, he certainly knows more Greek than me, since I know nothing of the Greek language yet, but do plan to take three years in seminary and I am not really looking forward to it. However, the editors behind the ESV do know Greek and their combined knowledge probably exceeds John Gill but I really would not know. The ESV has become a favorite translation of mine, but many of the other English translations seem to agree that it should be "her"

I don't think it was Paul's intention of Calling Nymphas family his church.

All the following English translations use her and that is a lot of Greek Scholars combined.
New International Version
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

New Living Translation
Please give my greetings to our brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house.

English Standard Version
Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

Berean Study Bible
Greet the brothers in Laodicea, as well as Nympha and the church that meets at her house.

Berean Literal Bible
Greet the brothers in Laodicea, and also Nympha and the church in her house.

King James Bible
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

New King James Version
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.

New American Standard Bible
Greet the brothers and sisters who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

NASB 1995
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

NASB 1977
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

Amplified Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house.

Christian Standard Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters in Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her home.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers in Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her home.

American Standard Version
Salute the brethren that are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church that is in their house.

Contemporary English Version
Give my greetings to the followers at Laodicea, especially to Nympha and the church that meets in her home.

So I am going to go with the majority and conclude she is a woman. And being called out by name as a representative of the church in her house that he is passing on greetings to, it can be assumed that she would be the one passing on his greetings to the church that meets in her house. And if so, it can be assumed that is because she addresses them. Or Speaks, or Teaches.

 

[Major]

I intentionally exaggerated a little to make a point...
If we interpret things as you suggested (=> the authority not referring to marriage only, and it's a matter of study what Paul meant by "usurping" (in your interpretation not husband's but MALE) authority and what is the context to properly understand him)... we then come to the worldview where every woman is spiritually inferior to every men, and always has to be spiritually babysat by men, because man is somehow spiritually more capable and she will walk into error the second she isn't under male supervision. In fact, a lot of churches in the West basically hold this view albeit I exaggerated it, but they're not too far from it. In Eastern Orthodox and Catholic there's the also veil or scarf in the church to physically symbolize the right to be silent. You're wrong that there are no words, because it is said in the Bible through the very phrase referring to woman "usurping AUTHORITY" (of man) when interpreted as you suggest.

Please, lets be clear here. I have NO interpretation what so ever. The written Word of God is what I posted and it says..........
1 Timothy 3:1-2
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, "

I have NO earthly idea why that needs an interpretation.

That has NOTHING to do whatsoever with the woman be inferior to the man.

It has everything to do with "authority" and the MAN being in charge of the WOMAN from Eve being the one seduced and not Adam.

 

[Major]

All due respect to John Gill, he certainly knows more Greek than me, since I know nothing of the Greek language yet, but do plan to take three years in seminary and I am not really looking forward to it. However, the editors behind the ESV do know Greek and their combined knowledge probably exceeds John Gill but I really would not know. The ESV has become a favorite translation of mine, but many of the other English translations seem to agree that it should be "her"

I don't think it was Paul's intention of Calling Nymphas family his church.

All the following English translations use her and that is a lot of Greek Scholars combined.
New International Version
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

New Living Translation
Please give my greetings to our brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house.

English Standard Version
Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.

Berean Study Bible
Greet the brothers in Laodicea, as well as Nympha and the church that meets at her house.

Berean Literal Bible
Greet the brothers in Laodicea, and also Nympha and the church in her house.

King James Bible
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

New King James Version
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.

New American Standard Bible
Greet the brothers and sisters who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

NASB 1995
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

NASB 1977
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

Amplified Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house.

Christian Standard Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters in Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her home.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Give my greetings to the brothers in Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her home.

American Standard Version
Salute the brethren that are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church that is in their house.

Contemporary English Version
Give my greetings to the followers at Laodicea, especially to Nympha and the church that meets in her home.

His in the old version, Hers in the latest version and the best authority is, their house.

"And Nymphas" which some, have took for a woman, hence the word "HER".
Whereas in times past and past translations it is the name of a man, as the following words show; and is a contraction of Nymphios, or Nymphidios, or Nymphodoros...hence the word HIS.

 

[UCA4J]

I know you were replying to awelight but I will comment on this. Maybe it was a schism of women infected by false teachers.
In 2 Tim 3 there is a hint of some things going on with women being seduced by false teachers.
5 having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. From such turn away.

6 For of this sort are those who creep into houses and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

it was addressed to the women in that particular church, because the women in other churches weren't taking over the role that the men were assigned to do.

 

[Major]

Which parts of what I wrote do you find disagreeable? All I said was, God gives people spiritual gifts (including women) and that that verses which say a church leader needs to be married man maybe should not be taken literally (and so we should consider the context of the text), because if we do, even Paul and Jesus would be unqualified to be pastor.

But, I understand why someone who only considers a few verses and takes them literally would believe women cannot be pastors. People who agree with women being pastors look into a lot of other factors as well: spiritual gifts, (how Jesus treated women (he taught Marta which is unusual as women did not receive education back then, he appeared first to women after his death (the first missionaries were women)), how God uses women for leadership postions (Deborah), Priscilla taught Aquillas, etc.

With Priscilla teaching Aquillas, do you at least agree that a married woman can teach another man? (as Priscilla was married).

And I disagree with ........
"verses which say a church leader needs to be married man maybe should not be taken literally (and so we should consider the context of the text), because if we do, even Paul and Jesus would be unqualified to be pastor."

Since the original word in verse#1 of 1 Timothy 3 is "MAN". If a MAN desire the office of a bishop....."

What else could that possibly mean except MAN????

There is no corresponding element in the context of 1 Tim 3:2 that makes it unambiguous that “one-woman man” (μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα) specifically describes a man. So then......MAN = MAN/MALE gender person. There is no other explination possible.

Most all Bible scholars agree that Paul was a "Widower". Please search...…Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, Vol. 2, p. 217

As for teaching men.....only when the man gives up the authority he was given by God, then Yes the woman can teach men.

 

[Dino246]

I agree with you whole heartedly. A woman should not be allowed to Pastor, Teach or have authority over men in the assembly meetings. There is a distinct Biblical order:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Also agree that the "head covering" for the woman, is still to be done today. This was a common practice until around the late 1950's and 60's. Although many women at that time wore "hats" rather than a "veil". This probably demonstrated a drifting away from the proper teaching at that time. When the "Woman's Liberation" movement picked up steam in the 1960's, the practice of the "head cover" was dropped by most denominational churches. Today it is rarely practiced and is generally scoffed at by many professing Christians. This could be a serious matter, since Paul asserted:

1Co 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonors her head; for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven.

By extension, the woman having her head unveiled would be dishonoring Christ. Sadly, I witnessed Steven Lawson ( a minister connected to Legonier Ministries), give a three day exposition of 1 Cor. 11, on the "head covering" and he proved in his exposition that it should be done but since it seemed to have no impact on his congregation, he just blew it off and did nothing to enforce it.

Verse 3 clearly refers to a married couple, because any man does not have authority over every woman. THE head of THE woman is THE man. Further, because the verse is not God-Christ-Man-Woman, it is quite possible that God did not have lines of authority in mind.

You should have kept reading; verse 14 says, "For her hair is given her as a covering".

Finally, there is some relevant research that would make Paul's comments about head covering completely irrelevant today. Let's just say that first-century medical understanding was definitely not 21st century medical understanding. I won't bore you with data that don't align with your preconceived ideas though.

 

[Magenta]

and I asked the question.

Others have asked questions also. Of you, even.

Which, so far, you have dodged and evaded, deigning not to answer.

 

[UCA4J]

Others have asked questions also. Of you, even.

Which, so far, you have dodged and evaded, deigning not to answer.

what question has been asked of me, that i am supposedly dodging?
and the question i asked about my question not being understood, hasn't been answered.
is this a game of answering a question, with a question?

 

[Dino246]

Actually, verse 16 has been terribly misunderstood by many. It has certainly not been ignored. Let's break this verse down:

1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. (KJV).

Two Greek words need to be examined herein: The word translated "contentious" and "custom". The Greek word translated "contentious" is: φιλονεικος, an adjective meaning "argumentative, quarrelsome or contentious" and the Greek word translated "custom" is συνηθειαν, a compound noun, which literally means "common habit" and by inference "assembly habit or acceptance". Now let's put it together:

1 Cor. 11:16 But if any one seems to be argumentative, we have no such assembly habit, neither the assemblies of God.

Thus, Paul is saying, 1st. Is there anyone who wants to argue about the things I just said, 2nd Arguing is not an acceptable habit in the assembly. 3rd. Nor in any of the assemblies of God.

So Paul was not telling them that the veil was not a custom or practice, he was reiterating the fact that being quarrelsome was not acceptable. We saw this same kind of statement from Paul in these verses:

1Co 14:37-38 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord. But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

It does not follow that Paul suddenly switched focus entirely to an admonition about being argumentative. That would have been appropriate in chapter 1; in chapter 11, it is out of place. The more straightforward reading is "if anyone wants to be argumentative, we don't hold to that practice (the previously-described coverings), nor do the other assemblies".

 

[Magenta]

what question has been asked of me, that i am supposedly dodging?
and the question i asked about my question not being understood, hasn't been answered.
is this a game of answering a question, with a question?

Is there a point to your original question? Put to you more than once, to which you have responded without answering, and now you forget? How convenient. And pointless.

 

[Dino246]

Since the original word in verse#1 of 1 Timothy 3 is "MAN". If a MAN desire the office of a bishop....."

What else could that possibly mean except MAN????

There is no corresponding element in the context of 1 Tim 3:2 that makes it unambiguous that “one-woman man” (μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα) specifically describes a man. So then......MAN = MAN/MALE gender person. There is no other explination possible.

There IS another explanation possible because the word "man" does not appear in 1 Timothy 3:1. The relevant word is tis which in this case is best translated, "anyone".

 

[posthuman]

Haha, are you familiar with the BDF? Just a tip... duck!!

yes, "take the lowest seat"

 

[Scribe]

Actually, verse 16 has been terribly misunderstood by many. It has certainly not been ignored. Let's break this verse down:

1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. (KJV).

Two Greek words need to be examined herein: The word translated "contentious" and "custom". The Greek word translated "contentious" is: φιλονεικος, an adjective meaning "argumentative, quarrelsome or contentious" and the Greek word translated "custom" is συνηθειαν, a compound noun, which literally means "common habit" and by inference "assembly habit or acceptance". Now let's put it together:

1 Cor. 11:16 But if any one seems to be argumentative, we have no such assembly habit, neither the assemblies of God.

Thus, Paul is saying, 1st. Is there anyone who wants to argue about the things I just said, 2nd Arguing is not an acceptable habit in the assembly. 3rd. Nor in any of the assemblies of God.

So Paul was not telling them that the veil was not a custom or practice, he was reiterating the fact that being quarrelsome was not acceptable. We saw this same kind of statement from Paul in these verses:

1Co 14:37-38 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord. But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

That seems forced to me. I think I understand it as a reference to the custom of head coverings. But this issue, the misinterpretation on women ministy, and also everything he had said about the gifts of the Spirit will be argued about until Jesus comes again.
We each have to go with what we think it is saying.

I love this final verse. It is most excellent in solving these long arguments on CC.

1Co 14:37-38 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord. But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

The Spirit will lead me in discovering authorial intent. And I believe He already has on many of these issues.

 

[SoulWeaver]

One need not have an "official" position with the body of Christ to carry the good news.

Someone said something about a woman at the pulpit as if that in itself were exercising authority over men.

How is a woman at the pulpit exercising authority over men? Do you know? Just curious

I'd like to point out on this occasion that there was no pulpit in the first church... everybody took turns speaking to edify others, whatever God's Spirit put on their heart. There is so much emphasis on orderliness because many people were speaking.

 

[Scribe]

The strongest argument I find is that God gives spiritual gifts, I believe God can give a woman the skills/gifts to be pastor. Keep in mind that women also pray to God about this issue before becoming a pastor, and wait for His answer. Another compelling reason I find is that the Bible says single unmarried men cannot be church leaders:

1 Timothy 3:2 “A bishop (elder) then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach”; 1 Timothy 3:12 “Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well”; and Titus 1:6-7 “. . . appoint elders in every city as I commanded you—if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination...” These three passages suggest that an elder or deacon must be a married man.
However, if that's the case even Jesus and Paul would be unqualified to be pastor.

The authority issue is about the husband and wife relationship; the husband has authority over the wife. However, any random man does not automatically have authority over a woman. If the woman is married, I do think she needs the husband's approval before being pastor. My observation with the female pastors I see is that the husbands are proud of their wives.

It does not say that single unmarried men cannot be church leaders.

Paul did not teach all those SPIRITUAL benefits of being single in 1 Cor 7 just to turn around and say it would disqualify them from desiring the office of a bishop.

It means that if they are married to be married to only one wife. The point is on being blameless. Having more than one wife would be against what Jesus said about having only one and therefore he would not be blameless if he had more than one.

Paul was banning polygamy and people have heard it read with that 'must be married twist' so often they are violating the natural interpretation of BLAMELESS. His entire list is about being blameless.

A single unmarried man is not to be faulted. Paul taught that it was a good way to be undistracted from the world to focus on devotion to God. That is not a thing you blame or find fault with or consider immoral. It is not immoral to be single.
Paul did not teach all those SPIRITUAL benefits of being single in 1 Cor 7 just to turn around and say it would disqualify them from desiring the office of a bishop.

It is not immoral to be without kids. But if you do have kids and they are out of control you will be blamed, you will not be considered blameless. No one is going to blame you for not having kids. The point was not that he must have kids, but if he does they must not be unruly.

 

[UCA4J]

Is there a point to your original question? Put to you more than once, to which you have responded without answering, and now you forget? How convenient. And pointless.

I haven't forgotten, cos I don't know which question you are referring to.
You'll have to quote so I know.
And I have asked more than one question in more than on thread, so please quote it, otherwise I won't answer it.

 

[AnsweringRightly]

Must the "Male" be a married male?

That is the qualification. 1 Tim. 3. It safeguards from many evils, for both Elders and Deacons.

Before Adam ruled over children, he was married. This is the nucleus of the original church.

Before Moses was given leadership over a nation, a "church" in the wilderness, he was married and had children.

Both, before they were married, or had children, had dominion over 'beasts'.

 

[AnsweringRightly]

The first person Jesus entrusted with carrying the good news of His resurrections was a woman

Yes. That has nothing to do with a church office/ordained position. In that sense all are commissioned with the spread of the Gospel and the Kingdom of God, but not in the same manner, office or position.

 

[AnsweringRightly]

There were female deacons in the first churches.

No there weren't. The only text that even purportedly used to substantiate such, was already addressed, Romans 16:1:

[1] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-pastors-biblical.196631/page-2#post-4457963

[2] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-pastors-biblical.196631/page-2#post-4457964

There were female servers, true. Not women "Deacons" (office/position).