Book of Romans.

[John146]

You probably have a good reason to write what you did, and in all but one point I agree. But what is the difference between ...

"God continued His plan through Noah" (Corban),

and

"Noah would be instrumental in the descent of Jesus of Nazareth from Adam" (Nehemiah6)?

First, it seems like semantics to me. Second, the lineage from Noah is vitally important because Noah's "generations were perfect". That is, the way he was generated, and what he generated, were perfect, showing that he was not involved in the lineage of angels (the context). Satan's attack is always directed at the seed of the woman by murder, war, famine, mating with angels, mating with man-KIND (homosexuality), bestiality and "forbidding marriage".

The point I question is that being the "rightful heir to the throne of David" achieves nothing for the Nations. Israel and the Nations are mortal enemies. And it helps nothing to point out that Christ is the "seed of the woman" because (i) that woman, Eve, was not an Israelite, and (ii) Luke traces His lineage to Adam - also not an Israelite. Of much more profit to the Nations is "seed of Abraham", for to Abraham's seed is the WORLD promised (Rom.4:13). Abraham, like Adam, was a Gentile - a Syrian.

Not many understand this principle. It gives us the answer to all the bloodshed and wars throughout the Old Testament. It gives us the answer to virtually every Old Testament story. Satan attacking the seed line, and God doing whatever it took to preserve the seed line.

 

[Blik]

Not many understand this principle. It gives us the answer to all the bloodshed and wars throughout the Old Testament. It gives us the answer to virtually every Old Testament story. Satan attacking the seed line, and God doing whatever it took to preserve the seed line.

It seems to me the answer to the wars and bloodshed of the old testament is not about protecting the seed line, but about the Lord being against evil. Whenever God asked for a holy war, it was against people who the Lord knew were hopelessly evil, with there being no chance for their salvation.

Grace then, as it is now, is only through Christ and forgiveness of sin. The sacrificial system was based on what Christ did for us, it was for forgiveness of sin.

 

[Corban]

The short answer is that Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world

An aside but relevant to what you said above:

If Noah's generations were perfect, and Nephilim were demonic, how did they survive the flood?

O.K. I don't hold that the Nephilim were demonic. I hold that hey were offspring of an illegal sexual union between angels and women. They did not survive the flood. Demons are spirits without a body. Angels, possessing an ethereal body can mate, but demons cannot. Most probably your next question is; if the Nephilim did not survive the flood, how come they were among the Canaanites? The answer is in Genesis 6:4.

"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

The grammar indicates that this practice of angels mating with women produced the "giants" BEFORE the flood, and AFTER again. It would seem that the practice was rather limited after the flood because angels who did it knew that they would be locked up in a subterranean prison called Tartaroo (Jude 1:6; 2nd Pet.2:4) till the White Throne Judgment.

Demons would survive the flood anyway because their home is the sea (Matt.8:32, Mk.5:13; LK.8:32-33).

 

[Corban]

It seems to me the answer to the wars and bloodshed of the old testament is not about protecting the seed line, but about the Lord being against evil. Whenever God asked for a holy war, it was against people who the Lord knew were hopelessly evil, with there being no chance for their salvation.

Grace then, as it is now, is only through Christ and forgiveness of sin. The sacrificial system was based on what Christ did for us, it was for forgiveness of sin.

It is true that God uses wars to chastise Nations. But God is not the propagator of violence. You can see God's attitude with Cain. Although Cain deserved the death penalty, God put a mark on Cain as a threat to the man who would kill him. God wanted to stop a spiral of violence. Rather, it is Satan who promotes violence (Jn.10.10).

 

[oldethennew]

BOTH 'postulates' are very 'difficult to prove', either way...

may our hearts be true in our seeking and may our Saviour
reveal His truths to us as we continue to seek His Truth,
without any prejudice...

 

[Corban]

BOTH 'postulates' are very 'difficult to prove', either way...

may our hearts be true in our seeking and may our Saviour
reveal His truths to us as we continue to seek His Truth,
without any prejudice...

Amen.

 

[Blik]

It is true that God uses wars to chastise Nations. But God is not the propagator of violence. You can see God's attitude with Cain. Although Cain deserved the death penalty, God put a mark on Cain as a threat to the man who would kill him. God wanted to stop a spiral of violence. Rather, it is Satan who promotes violence (Jn.10.10).

God hates evil and loves the man He created.

 

[Corban]

God hates evil and loves the man He created.

Amen! But He can hate too. See Psalm 11:5, and God hated Esau for despising his birthright (Rom.9.13).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I think that an example is the best answer here. The Law regulates the "Day of Atonement" in Leviticus Chapter 16:1-28. In verse 16 it reads ;

16 "And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness."

It is at once clear that this Law could not apply to an Eskimo in Greenland, or even an Egyptian on the other side of the Red Sea. The both have no approved Tabernacle. Neither do they have an High Priest of the family of Aaron of Levi. The "atonement" is "because of the uncleanness of the children of ISRAEL", not the Canaanite, or the sons of Gog. Even if some Eskimos and sons of Gog sneaked into the camp of Israelites, atonement is decreed by God to be ONLY for Israel. Added to this, the ordinances of the Law form the CONDITIONS of a COVENANT. And this Covenant of Law is also ONLY made with the sons of Israel.

If you and I went down to the local Hummer dealership and I made a contract to buy one, you could do what you like but the contract would not include you. You might be my friend, you might scream and shout, you may take it to the Supreme Court, but the panel of Judges would all say the same thing: "The Contract is NOT made with you". But you would be glad, when, a year later I defaulted on my payments and went to jail because that was the penalty of the Contract. You would not go to jail because the Contract does not include you.

So, that is why the wording is;

14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" (Romans 2:14-15)

• The Gentiles do NOT have the Law (twice in verse 14)
• The Gentiles do things contained in the Law
• This is because the "work" of the Law is written on their hearts. What "work", may we ask? The answer is, "Work" that provokes the conscience, and which needs excusing.

You have many words that reveal very little. The Gentiles that have the law written in their heart have been spiritually rebirthed with their new fleshy heart having been changed from a heart of stone, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit'

The stony heart of the unregenerate, natural man, cannot be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It is true that God uses wars to chastise Nations. But God is not the propagator of violence. You can see God's attitude with Cain. Although Cain deserved the death penalty, God put a mark on Cain as a threat to the man who would kill him. God wanted to stop a spiral of violence. Rather, it is Satan who promotes violence (Jn.10.10).

So, was it satan that told Israel not to bring back any spoils from the battle he sent them to, telling them to kill every man, and woman, and child, and animals?

 

[Magenta]

O.K. I don't hold that the Nephilim were demonic. I hold that hey were offspring of an illegal sexual union between angels and women. They did not survive the flood. Demons are spirits without a body. Angels, possessing an ethereal body can mate, but demons cannot. Most probably your next question is; if the Nephilim did not survive the flood, how come they were among the Canaanites? The answer is in Genesis 6:4.

"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

The grammar indicates that this practice of angels mating with women produced the "giants" BEFORE the flood, and AFTER again. It would seem that the practice was rather limited after the flood because angels who did it knew that they would be locked up in a subterranean prison called Tartaroo (Jude 1:6; 2nd Pet.2:4) till the White Throne Judgment.

Demons would survive the flood anyway because their home is the sea (Matt.8:32, Mk.5:13; LK.8:32-33).

I did not say they were demons, but demonic, being followers of Satan. "Survive the flood" as in, return post flood. If Noah's generations were perfect, how could this be? I do not hold to the angels having sex with women view. At. All. My view is: Angels do not procreate; kind reproduces after kind; there is zero Biblical evidence that any angel took on human flesh aside from carrying out the express will of God. The sons of God are of Seth's line (believers), and the daughter's of men are of Cain's line (non-believers).

 

[Blik]

When I am looking in my documents for a Scripture panel url,
I notice many more from Romans than probably any other book

While you look for pictures others have painted, I get out my oil paints and my brushes and use them to praise the Lord for the beauty and glory of His world. Some create music to praise the Lord, Some write poetry. You search the work of others, but I paint.

 

[Corban]

You have many words that reveal very little. The Gentiles that have the law written in their heart have been spiritually rebirthed with their new fleshy heart having been changed from a heart of stone, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit'

The stony heart of the unregenerate, natural man, cannot be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness.

"Many words revealing little" is not an argument. I could read the technical handbook of the Space Shuttle to an primitive Amazonian and he would understand little. But the much writing is all valid. It is the hearer that is limited. Why not show my remarks to be wrong? You did not address one of them.

The Gentiles have the "WORK of the Law written in their hearts". Gentiles are those who have NOT experienced rebirth. Only Israel gets a new heart - not the Gentiles. The Believer gets a New BIRTH - and is made a New Creature where there is NO Gentile (2nd Cor.5:17; Gal.3:28; Col.3:11).

Your last statement about a stony heart "that cannot be pricked to feel guilty" stands in opposition to those who stoned Stephen (Act.7:54). Or where those who stoned Stephen born-again believers?

 

[Corban]

I did not say they were demons, but demonic, being followers of Satan. "Survive the flood" as in, return post flood. If Noah's generations were perfect, how could this be? I do not hold to the angels having sex with women view. At. All. My view is: Angels do not procreate; kind reproduces after kind; there is zero Biblical evidence that any angel took on human flesh aside from carrying out the express will of God. The sons of God are of Seth's line (believers), and the daughter's of men are of Cain's line (non-believers).

According to 2nd Peter 1:20 you may not interpret scripture privately. So the "sons of God" must be defined by other scripture. Here what research will show;

1. The "Son of God" is Jesus - begotten of God
2. The "sons of God" are Believers who have been born of the Father by FAITH through the Holy Spirit (Jn.1:12-13, 3:6)
3. Adam is a "son of God" because he had his ORIGIN in God
4. The "sons of God" are beings who rejoiced when the earth was made, and who include Satan (Job.1:6, 2:1, 38:7). Satan is an angel.
5. The "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are in OPPOSITION to "the daughters of MEN". If they were of Seth's line they would be "sons of MEN" (See Gen.6:1)
6. Angels, although their substance is spirit, have bodies. In every sighting of any angel in the Bible he had a body. The two angels that went to Sodom first ate with Abraham.
7. Angels who sinned at Noah's time, "left their 'FIRST' estate". The word "first estate" in Jude 6 means "their beginning", or "what they were made for", and/or "their principality". That is, their actions are not disputed, but they are accused of dealing outside the realm they were placed in. If the "sons of MEN" mated with women they would not have "left their original purpose".

After perusing the evidence the only "sons of God" who mated with "daughters of MEN" must be angels.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

"Many words revealing little" is not an argument. I could read the technical handbook of the Space Shuttle to an primitive Amazonian and he would understand little. But the much writing is all valid. It is the hearer that is limited. Why not show my remarks to be wrong? You did not address one of them.

The Gentiles have the "WORK of the Law written in their hearts". Gentiles are those who have NOT experienced rebirth. Only Israel gets a new heart - not the Gentiles. The Believer gets a New BIRTH - and is made a New Creature where there is NO Gentile (2nd Cor.5:17; Gal.3:28; Col.3:11).

Your last statement about a stony heart "that cannot be pricked to feel guilty" stands in opposition to those who stoned Stephen (Act.7:54). Or where those who stoned Stephen born-again believers?

There is a vast difference in the actions of those regenerated Jews, in Acts with the new fleshy heart after their guilty conscience was pricked, from Peter's sermon accusing them of crucifying Christ, and they said, "men and brethren, what must we do"
Those men that stoned Stephen to death for preaching the same sermon, were the unregenerate natural men with hearts of stone.

That is the difference in the heart of the natural man, and the heart of the generated man.

All of God's elect, both Jews and Gentiles, in the old testament, as well as the new testament, sometime in their natural life are born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and "IN YOU ALL".

Eph 2:5, Even when we were spiritually dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ. Those that are born again, both Jews and gentiles, are in Christ, and Christ in them. Gal 3:27-28, reinforces the fact that the Gentiles, as well as the Jews are in Christ. If they are "in Christ" they are born again.

 

[Mii]

Most of scripture can be seen as part of God's law. It is a very varied and complex subject. There is the laws governing nature, the spiritual laws governing the world of the Lord, and even the physical commands Moses gave the people as schoolmasters to lead them to the spiritual laws. The physical commands that acted as schoolmasters have been replaced by the Holy Spirit that now takes their place. The other laws are eternal and truth.

Well I appreciate it. I feel even more constricted the more I focus on living according to Romans 13. In order to remain above reproach in the U.S means I have to basically almost "breath" the law. This legalism as well as the categories you have mentioned make it quite difficult to achieve resolution on this. It has been a VERY long journey and I think it's about to get much more "taxing".

It's lately grown quite dark for me and it's probably best that I refrain from gaining resolutions publicly. Thanks for replying though, I have appreciated your posts and will continue to consider.

I certainly am in favor of an advocate and the mediation that the propitiation allows for and perhaps there is a "legitimate" purpose in my being weighed down by this. I suppose I just have to be patient and wait on the Lord to bring clarity. I am definitely open to continued gleaning.

 

[Blik]

Well I appreciate it. I feel even more constricted the more I focus on living according to Romans 13. In order to remain above reproach in the U.S means I have to basically almost "breath" the law. This legalism as well as the categories you have mentioned make it quite difficult to achieve resolution on this. It has been a VERY long journey and I think it's about to get much more "taxing".

It's lately grown quite dark for me and it's probably best that I refrain from gaining resolutions publicly. Thanks for replying though, I have appreciated your posts and will continue to consider.

I certainly am in favor of an advocate and the mediation that the propitiation allows for and perhaps there is a "legitimate" purpose in my being weighed down by this. I suppose I just have to be patient and wait on the Lord to bring clarity. I am definitely open to continued gleaning.

It seems to me that understanding the law is a very simple matter. Getting caught up in "gentiles" and "Israelites" as completely apart from Christians and ones who do not believe that through Christ we have salvation leads to darkness. In Christ there is no Jew, no gentile, no woman, no man, but children of God.

Legalism is simply obeying the law without the law of love, it is not complicated. Christ explained it well with telling of the Pharisee and the good Samaritan, the Pharisee was an example of legalism. He obeyed the law to obey the Sabbath without obeying the law of love.

It is also darkness to think of obeying the law by our own power. We are to accept Christ as leading our life. Christ leads us to walk in a narrow road, and the law acts as a border for that road. We are not to take on guilt and self scorn if we step outside those borders, but accept that Christ makes us into people who are made righteous. We have only to sincerely will to walk only within the boundaries of that road.

It is a wonderful road leading to a marvelous life with fruits of the spirit, even, not a burdensome weight to carry. If you don't believe me, go visit a prison filled with people who ignored the road to walk, then to a spirit filled church filled with people who live a life of love.

The Lord gives us scripture that explains in detail that road we are to walk, and scripture is a wonderful help. The 119th Psalm is a wonderful roadmap. But there is one law that tops and explains all law. It is to love the lord with everything that is within us and others like ourselves.

 

[Corban]

So, was it satan that told Israel not to bring back any spoils from the battle he sent them to, telling them to kill every man, and woman, and child, and animals?

I see your point. The question is; Why did a God of love and peace give such an order to Israel. Or even, if you want to make a point, Why did God flood the earth and kill all land creatures save those in the Ark? The answer is that man joined Satan in attempting to spoil the SEED of the woman? God promised that it would be the "Seed of THE woman" that would crush Satan's head. And from that moment forward, Satan's attack is on Eve's seed. The Defeater, Conqueror, Victor, Vanquisher and Crusher must be the seed of Eve. So Satan's tactics are to kill men to prevent the seed propagating, and if he cannot kill all men with war and violence, he will turn to POLLUTING the seed so that it is not true seed of the woman any more. He does this by
(i) forbidding marriage
(ii) causing mankind to think that sex is evil
(iii) causing sexual problems in the marriage
(iv) making a hybrid by angels mating with women
(v) preventing the seed propagating by homosexuality
(vi) preventing the seed propagating by bestiality

At the time of Noah, God was set to wipe out all living land creatures because they were involved in one, or more, of the above. But one man was found who was "generated" correctly, and who was righteous to "generate" correctly. That is, Noah's line from Eve was unadulterated, and Noah himself was mating with a woman. His sons were not the product of interference by angels. God killed the rest of mankind because they (i) joined Satan's conspiracy, (ii) were propagating hybrids, and (iii) conceived "only evil continuously".

So also is the answer to your question. The Canaanites - sons of Ham, and under curse, put their energy into polluting the seed of the woman by (i) causing their children to pass through fire to the demon-god Molech, (ii) mingling sexually with angels and producing giants, (iii) homosexuality, (iv) bestiality, and (v) idol worship. All of these activities are not merely sins. They pollute the Land as well. So God's order was to ERADICATE THE SOURCE and ERADICATE THE PRODUCT - just like the flood did.

So, I will grant you that God can be quite bloody if you set yourself against Him to thwart His purpose and defile others. I will agree that any man, even a Christian, should not play with God, neither should he think that he can get away with trying to thwart God. There are examples enough, and yours was a prime one.

 

[Corban]

There is a vast difference in the actions of those regenerated Jews, in Acts with the new fleshy heart after their guilty conscience was pricked, from Peter's sermon accusing them of crucifying Christ, and they said, "men and brethren, what must we do"
Those men that stoned Stephen to death for preaching the same sermon, were the unregenerate natural men with hearts of stone.

That is the difference in the heart of the natural man, and the heart of the generated man.

All of God's elect, both Jews and Gentiles, in the old testament, as well as the new testament, sometime in their natural life are born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and "IN YOU ALL".

Eph 2:5, Even when we were spiritually dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ. Those that are born again, both Jews and gentiles, are in Christ, and Christ in them. Gal 3:27-28, reinforces the fact that the Gentiles, as well as the Jews are in Christ. If they are "in Christ" they are born again.

May I ask you a favor before we get too deep into this? Could you supply me two scriptures (for everything must be established by two or more witnesses) that show the rebirth to be "regeneration". The wording of John 3:3-5 means "AN-OTHER", or "ADDITIONAL" birth. "Regeneration" in the Bible means going from death, or a dormant life, to blossoming - like trees and bushes do in spring. You will agree that they are not the same. "Regeneration" presupposes a life that went dead and was regenerated. "Again" means a man had one birth, and must have an additional birth. Thus, if man is to be regenerated, what spiritual life did he lose, since he had never eaten from the Tree of Life, and since a spirit cannot die.

Thanks.

 

[Magenta]

While you look for pictures others have painted, I get out my oil paints and my brushes and use them to praise the Lord for the beauty and glory of His world. Some create music to praise the Lord, Some write poetry. You search the work of others, but I paint.

Others have painted? Whatever do you mean? I design my own Scripture panels.

Here is my most recent

1 Thessalonians 1:2-5a

It is not from Romans; these verses were part of my zoom church meeting yesterday