Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?
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I’m not sure how we got off here. I don’t believe that any believers will be on earth for God’s wrath, however we who believe now will be on earth until that wrath. I don’t believe that God takes us out and leaves baby Christians to be on the earth after us. That’s what doesn’t make sense to me.
He did ask God not to take us out of the world but God does say we are not destined for wrath..so it makes sense that we will be here until that wrath.
So are you saying that Jesus returns to earth a few times before He defends Israel? I thought He was only going to return once?
Aren’t these the raptured?
John is being shown what will happen..he doesn’t already know.
When he arrives there are no people so when later, he looks around and sees them all who would he know who they were and what they were doing there.
I was confused by what you wrote..it seems to me that you didn’t think it would be a physical event.
Isn’t the next event the signing of a peace treaty? Isn’t that he one we are really waiting for the one that signals the last seven years?
The church can’t be taken up until the antichrist is revealed and that happens in 3 1/2 years after the sacrifices are started again.
I have studied this. I believe that everything that Tim Lahay wrote and the prevalent understanding of the rapture is completely wrong. There is no pretrib rapture and I think the Bible tells us so.
The first seal doesn’t initiate God’s wrath..God’s wrath doesn’t come until the seventh seal..after the rapture. The rapture happens in Revelation 7:9-17 and the wrath of God starts in Revelation 8 where the angels are throwing things down upon the earth..that’s the wrath of God. There are also bowls of wrath that Revelation 16 talks about as well.
No Christian will be around for those things that happen..but unless we die or are martyred we Christians..living now will be there to see everything before God’s wrath. Why would He take mature Christians away and leave only baby Christians in our place to go through the worst time man has ever seen?
He did ask God not to take us out of the world but God does say we are not destined for wrath..so it makes sense that we will be here until that wrath.
So are you saying that Jesus returns to earth a few times before He defends Israel? I thought He was only going to return once?
Aren’t these the raptured?
Revelation 19:11-14
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
John is being shown what will happen..he doesn’t already know.
When he arrives there are no people so when later, he looks around and sees them all who would he know who they were and what they were doing there.
I was confused by what you wrote..it seems to me that you didn’t think it would be a physical event.
Isn’t the next event the signing of a peace treaty? Isn’t that he one we are really waiting for the one that signals the last seven years?
The church can’t be taken up until the antichrist is revealed and that happens in 3 1/2 years after the sacrifices are started again.
I have studied this. I believe that everything that Tim Lahay wrote and the prevalent understanding of the rapture is completely wrong. There is no pretrib rapture and I think the Bible tells us so.
The first seal doesn’t initiate God’s wrath..God’s wrath doesn’t come until the seventh seal..after the rapture. The rapture happens in Revelation 7:9-17 and the wrath of God starts in Revelation 8 where the angels are throwing things down upon the earth..that’s the wrath of God. There are also bowls of wrath that Revelation 16 talks about as well.
No Christian will be around for those things that happen..but unless we die or are martyred we Christians..living now will be there to see everything before God’s wrath. Why would He take mature Christians away and leave only baby Christians in our place to go through the worst time man has ever seen?
Do you know who this group below is:
"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. - Rev.7:9-17
The elder asks John, 'who are they?' and he says:
'These are those who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'
The group above is not the church, but those saints who will come out of the great tribulation, who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.
The great tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. According to Daniel and Jesus, it begins when the abomination is set up in the temple. Further more, the great tribulation and the 3 1/2 years preceding it, is when God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. As I stated before, we cannot enter into that time period of God's wrath, because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. So, why don't you understand that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and must be removed prior to it?
No, Jesus did not ask not to take us out of the world. He asked not to take His 12 disciples out of the world. Please pay attention to the scriptures that I provide. Jesus said that they could not follow Him at that time, but that they and we would follow Him later.
When Jesus comes to gather His church, He does not return to the earth but we are caught up to meet Him in the air. From there, John 14:1-3 will be fulfilled, where the Lord takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us.
Yes, those who are following Christ out of heaven, is the church who will have previously been resurrected and caught up. This is the church/bride who will attend the wedding of the Lamb in heaven as described in Rev.19:6-8. This is the bride/church who will be wearing her fine linen, white and clean and riding on white horses.
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things must take place in quickness."
The word 'apokalupsis' translated as 'Revelation' is defined as something being unveiled, that was previously unknown. It is these events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all related information that is being revealed.
I have always taught that the gathering of the church would be a literal, physical event, because it has to do with our current bodies. When the resurrection takes place, those who have died in Christ will come out of their graves with immortal and glorified bodies, Just like the Lord's. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive, will be changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. How can that not be physical and literal. Remember, the word 'anastasia' translated as 'resurrection' means to literally stand up again in the same physical body. Jesus is an example of this in that, when He appeared to the disciples, they thought that He was a spirit. To prove to them that it was Him in the same body that He was previously in, He showed them the nail marks in His hands and feet and said, "a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have." In the same way, when the Lord comes for the church, they will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies.
No, the seven year contract with Israel is not the next event. Jesus did not tell believers to watch for that. He told us to watch for His appearing when He comes and get us.
That is false! It is the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath that can't happen until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
I agree about Tim Lahay. However, I have given you the reasons why the gathering must take place prior to God's wrath, but you're not listening. Once again, if Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then why do you insist on still putting the church through God's wrath?
Really? Is there anything written in the context of the seventh seal that states that the dead and the living of the church are resurrected and caught up? The announcement "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it" includes the previous six seals, the seventh seal, as well as the trumpets and bowl judgments. As I told you, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for all of the fatalities. Why don't you understand this?
God's wrath is comprised of all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that the two witnesses bring.
As I pointed out to you before, that group introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 will be those saints who will come out of the great tribulation, which is the wrath of God and which the church is not appointed to suffer. I keep telling you that it is a legal precedent that we cannot enter into that time of wrath, because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Why do you keep forgetting this principle? We can't go through the time of God's wrath because Jesus already experienced it for us. It's been satisfied!
He's not going to be taking mature Christians and leaving baby Christians. Everyone who is having faith, regardless of what level, will be changed and caught up. I keep telling you, that group in Revelation 7:9-17 is not the church! They are the great tribulation saints and not the church. The church will never see the great tribulation saints, because we will have already been gathered.
"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. - Rev.7:9-17
The elder asks John, 'who are they?' and he says:
'These are those who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'
The group above is not the church, but those saints who will come out of the great tribulation, who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.
The great tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. According to Daniel and Jesus, it begins when the abomination is set up in the temple. Further more, the great tribulation and the 3 1/2 years preceding it, is when God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. As I stated before, we cannot enter into that time period of God's wrath, because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. So, why don't you understand that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and must be removed prior to it?
No, Jesus did not ask not to take us out of the world. He asked not to take His 12 disciples out of the world. Please pay attention to the scriptures that I provide. Jesus said that they could not follow Him at that time, but that they and we would follow Him later.
When Jesus comes to gather His church, He does not return to the earth but we are caught up to meet Him in the air. From there, John 14:1-3 will be fulfilled, where the Lord takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us.
John didn't know anything except what He is being shown. The very first verse of Revelation tells us what the purpose of Revelation is:"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things must take place in quickness."
The word 'apokalupsis' translated as 'Revelation' is defined as something being unveiled, that was previously unknown. It is these events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all related information that is being revealed.
I have always taught that the gathering of the church would be a literal, physical event, because it has to do with our current bodies. When the resurrection takes place, those who have died in Christ will come out of their graves with immortal and glorified bodies, Just like the Lord's. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive, will be changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. How can that not be physical and literal. Remember, the word 'anastasia' translated as 'resurrection' means to literally stand up again in the same physical body. Jesus is an example of this in that, when He appeared to the disciples, they thought that He was a spirit. To prove to them that it was Him in the same body that He was previously in, He showed them the nail marks in His hands and feet and said, "a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have." In the same way, when the Lord comes for the church, they will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies.
No, the seven year contract with Israel is not the next event. Jesus did not tell believers to watch for that. He told us to watch for His appearing when He comes and get us.
That is false! It is the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath that can't happen until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
I agree about Tim Lahay. However, I have given you the reasons why the gathering must take place prior to God's wrath, but you're not listening. Once again, if Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then why do you insist on still putting the church through God's wrath?
Really? Is there anything written in the context of the seventh seal that states that the dead and the living of the church are resurrected and caught up? The announcement "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it" includes the previous six seals, the seventh seal, as well as the trumpets and bowl judgments. As I told you, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for all of the fatalities. Why don't you understand this?
God's wrath is comprised of all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that the two witnesses bring.
As I pointed out to you before, that group introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 will be those saints who will come out of the great tribulation, which is the wrath of God and which the church is not appointed to suffer. I keep telling you that it is a legal precedent that we cannot enter into that time of wrath, because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Why do you keep forgetting this principle? We can't go through the time of God's wrath because Jesus already experienced it for us. It's been satisfied!
He's not going to be taking mature Christians and leaving baby Christians. Everyone who is having faith, regardless of what level, will be changed and caught up. I keep telling you, that group in Revelation 7:9-17 is not the church! They are the great tribulation saints and not the church. The church will never see the great tribulation saints, because we will have already been gathered.
What is confusing to many people is, that there will indeed be "believers" existing on the earth during the trib years (who will have come to faith following "our Rapture"), so, that they are "believers" and existing on the earth at the same time as His "wrath" (the entire 7-yr trib) makes no sense to them, if [it is just that] "believers" are not appointed unto "wrath"... [so their thought is] "why are those 'believers' existing on the earth at the same time as the 'wrath,' when you are saying 'they will NOT because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of EVERY BELIEVER'?," as you say. (Why are THOSE "believers" there, at that time, if that is the case?)
Help them "make sense" of this seeming "contradiction" you are presenting. = )
[recall (and for the readers' awareness), I am a pre-tribber too
]
Help them "make sense" of this seeming "contradiction" you are presenting. = )
[recall (and for the readers' awareness), I am a pre-tribber too
]
The sheer irony of the highlighted parts!
You've fallen at the first hurdle. One of the major problems with the Pre-Trib fable is that it smashes scripture apart & reassembles it according to the doctrine.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him!
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 and our being gathered to him
We are not gathered first, years before his return.
He returns AND we are gathered just as the scripture says.
You've fallen at the first hurdle. One of the major problems with the Pre-Trib fable is that it smashes scripture apart & reassembles it according to the doctrine.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him!
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 and our being gathered to him
We are not gathered first, years before his return.
He returns AND we are gathered just as the scripture says.
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Because I don’t believe that God will take us Christians out before the wrath of God. The wrath of God...not starting at the opening of the first seal but the seventh. We will be there to share Jesus with the world and get martyred for it. I don’t know how many will be alive and waiting for Jesus return..but I can’t see that it will be many.
I don’t see why God would take out perfectly able Christians who’ve been Christians for years to save them from the tribulation period than raise up baby Christians in that period to go before kings and rulers and share the gospel. Why couldn’t He just use us? And I think you’ll have a hard time convincing people to become Christians after a pre trib rapture anyway...
If Jesus doesn’t want to take the disciples out of the world..and we are heirs to those people...why would He want to take us out of the world and replace us? God is consistent...if He spared them He would spare us..but He didn’t spare them..they died for their faith and so will we.
And we will follow Jesus later..after we have died for our faith...the dead rise first ya know.
How many times does Jesus return though? If He’s in the air...isn’t that a return? He is after all sitting at the right hand of the Father right now.
We don’t go to the place where God has prepared for us after the rapture...we are His army.
After the rapture..yes but not the pre trib rapture...that’s a false teaching.
Right..that’s why he didn’t know who the white robed people were...he was being shown it.
Sure..but weren’t you also saying that it was spiritual that Jesus died for us or something like that?
The next event is the peace treaty that brings the 7 year peace that the antichrist breaks in the middle of it. That is how we know that we are finally in the last 7 years of history. We need to know what to look for to know when his appearing is near.
Right..the man of lawlessness is revealed when he stands in the temple declaring himself God..which is when he stops the sacrifices after the 3.5 years treaty is broken by him.
This is the reason I thought you thought that it was spiritual..when you talk about Jesus taking God’s wrath. By the time God’s wrath comes upon the earth it will only be non believers taking His wrath...not the church. Our disagreement doesn’t come because of this..but the timing of our being taking out.
You say you agree about Tim Lahay however..you agree with him and the pre trib rapture. Pre trib meaning before the trib..before the 7 years.
No Jesus isn’t responsible for what’s in the earlier seals. The ruler of this earth is. It is he who is giving it one last go to be the ruler of the earth until he is taken out by Jesus.
Why would God send witnesses as His wrath? The wrath starts after the rapture..the saints who have been on the earth through the first 5 seals then they are raptured and the wrath of God starts. There are no tribulation saints to stand in for us because God loves us so much he will take us out before all that. No..God doesn’t work like that.
If they become Christians after all us Christians are raptured..than they are baby Christians. You aren’t getting this from the Bible.
I don’t see why God would take out perfectly able Christians who’ve been Christians for years to save them from the tribulation period than raise up baby Christians in that period to go before kings and rulers and share the gospel. Why couldn’t He just use us? And I think you’ll have a hard time convincing people to become Christians after a pre trib rapture anyway...
If Jesus doesn’t want to take the disciples out of the world..and we are heirs to those people...why would He want to take us out of the world and replace us? God is consistent...if He spared them He would spare us..but He didn’t spare them..they died for their faith and so will we.
And we will follow Jesus later..after we have died for our faith...the dead rise first ya know.
How many times does Jesus return though? If He’s in the air...isn’t that a return? He is after all sitting at the right hand of the Father right now.
We don’t go to the place where God has prepared for us after the rapture...we are His army.
After the rapture..yes but not the pre trib rapture...that’s a false teaching.
Right..that’s why he didn’t know who the white robed people were...he was being shown it.
Sure..but weren’t you also saying that it was spiritual that Jesus died for us or something like that?
The next event is the peace treaty that brings the 7 year peace that the antichrist breaks in the middle of it. That is how we know that we are finally in the last 7 years of history. We need to know what to look for to know when his appearing is near.
Right..the man of lawlessness is revealed when he stands in the temple declaring himself God..which is when he stops the sacrifices after the 3.5 years treaty is broken by him.
This is the reason I thought you thought that it was spiritual..when you talk about Jesus taking God’s wrath. By the time God’s wrath comes upon the earth it will only be non believers taking His wrath...not the church. Our disagreement doesn’t come because of this..but the timing of our being taking out.
You say you agree about Tim Lahay however..you agree with him and the pre trib rapture. Pre trib meaning before the trib..before the 7 years.
No Jesus isn’t responsible for what’s in the earlier seals. The ruler of this earth is. It is he who is giving it one last go to be the ruler of the earth until he is taken out by Jesus.
Why would God send witnesses as His wrath? The wrath starts after the rapture..the saints who have been on the earth through the first 5 seals then they are raptured and the wrath of God starts. There are no tribulation saints to stand in for us because God loves us so much he will take us out before all that. No..God doesn’t work like that.
If they become Christians after all us Christians are raptured..than they are baby Christians. You aren’t getting this from the Bible.
You do realize that Jesus framed it with lot and noah?
You do realize they were both described as prejudgement?
You do realize neither noah or lot were delivered post judgement?
You frame it opposite of Jesus.
Show me the postrib rapture setting in the pretrib rapture verses.
Lol
The pretrib verses you must either omit or probably dont know about.
You do realize they were both described as prejudgement?
You do realize neither noah or lot were delivered post judgement?
You frame it opposite of Jesus.
Show me the postrib rapture setting in the pretrib rapture verses.
Lol
The pretrib verses you must either omit or probably dont know about.
The resurrection. The apostle nailed it down. The harpazo is at the time of the resurrection.
And the resurrection is at his return in glory.
1 Thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet are absolute identifiers of his return. Not a stealth evacuation.
This element is placed in OT portions of the prophetic picture too.
1 Peter 4 (KJV)
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
His glory is not revealed in a stealth evacuation to heaven. His glory is revealed at his coming.
Peter told us his glory would end our suffering.
2 Thes 1 (KJV)
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
We see here that our persecutions & troubles are ended when Our Lord Jesus is revealed with his angels in flaming fire to take vengeance. This is speaking of his return. This isn't addressing people 'left behind' It's addressing the church.
This is the order he gives. Not me but the apostle who wrote this by the inspiration of God The Holy Spirit.
1 Tribulation experience in the church.
2 His return in glory which stops it. The 2nd coming.
3 Everlasting destruction of his enemies. (This is the wrath we are not appointed to.)
It's not right to take a wrecking-ball to scripture & reassemble it with an extra return plus heavenly wine & dine inserted.
That is man-made doctrine only.
And the resurrection is at his return in glory.
1 Thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet are absolute identifiers of his return. Not a stealth evacuation.
This element is placed in OT portions of the prophetic picture too.
1 Peter 4 (KJV)
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
His glory is not revealed in a stealth evacuation to heaven. His glory is revealed at his coming.
Peter told us his glory would end our suffering.
2 Thes 1 (KJV)
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
We see here that our persecutions & troubles are ended when Our Lord Jesus is revealed with his angels in flaming fire to take vengeance. This is speaking of his return. This isn't addressing people 'left behind' It's addressing the church.
This is the order he gives. Not me but the apostle who wrote this by the inspiration of God The Holy Spirit.
1 Tribulation experience in the church.
2 His return in glory which stops it. The 2nd coming.
3 Everlasting destruction of his enemies. (This is the wrath we are not appointed to.)
It's not right to take a wrecking-ball to scripture & reassemble it with an extra return plus heavenly wine & dine inserted.
That is man-made doctrine only.
"in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure"... taking place in their present experience (and in an ongoing way) was what made it REASONABLE for them to be wrongly convinced that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"... since they already "KNOW PERFECTLY that it *ARRIVES*... like the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman in labor (and Jesus had already spoken about those, in His Olivet Discourse [Matt24:4/Mk13:5] as what "kicks off" those [seven] years, parallel to what we now read about as "the SEALS" of Rev6, which Rev1:1/1:19c[/4:1] says are a part of the "IN QUCKNESS [NOUN]" time period [in the "future" aspects of that Book]; See also "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" Lk18:8, and "crush Satan UNDER *YOUR FEET* IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" Rom16:20.)
I suppose you mean this ^ will take place in a time-slot of 7 SECONDS or 3.5 SECONDS??
(No, I think not.)
Again, this verse literally reads, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that know not God [...]"
Do you think this means, during a time-slot of 7 SECONDS or 3.5 SECONDS??
So, to you, "to recompense trouble [3.5 SECONDS'-worth] to them that trouble you [ONGOINGLY and not MOMENTARILY]"??
So, for us, "the FIERY TRIAL that is to TRY you" is of a somewhat lengthy duration, but "in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON [those others]" cannot possibly be of a duration more than 3.5 SECONDS, in your view??
"Who SHALL be" doesn't mean precisely at that moment (of the time-period being presently addressed), but identifying their end/outcome. (namely "eternal destruction...")
"...when He shall come TO BE glorified IN HIS saints, AND to be admired in all those having believed because 'the testimony of us to you' was believed IN THAT DAY [this second part of the sentence not speaking of the Thess "in THIS day," but those [future 'saints'] in and experiencing the Trib yrs "IN THAT DAY"--they are who it is who are the ones "having believed 'the testimony of us to you,'" as opposed to OTHERS who will INSTEAD "believe 'THE LIE/the FALSE/the PSEUDEI" in that SAME TIME-PERIOD: "IN THAT DAY"/"the DAY OF THE LORD" time-period, when the "man of sin" will exist on the earth and DO ALL he is slated TO DO during it [or, during the 7-yr "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT OF it])
...which is not 3.5 SECONDS'-worth...
Granted, the part about the "who SHALL suffer ETERNAL DESTRUCTION AWAY FROM the Lord..." part, YES.
But prior to that, the 7-YRS-worth of it during the "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT, which is the 7-yr TRIB yrs... the yrs "they shall not ESCAPE" out of (in contrast to those who WILL obey the instruction of Lk21:36 and thus be enabled to FLEE OUT OF [same Grk word as "ESCAPE" ^ ] each and every thing taking place IN/DURING the trib (i.e. the TRIB 'saints'--those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture")
In part it is, and in part he's speaking of us... He's not just covering "one point," here, but several (and of MORE THAN merely a spans of "3.5 SECONDS'-worth" of time)
The "salvation" Paul is mostly covering in his Thess epistles is an "eschatological salvation" ("the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING" 1Th1:10, for one example)... where "the wrath coming" is what will take place ON THE EARTH (in the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period [commencing with the INTIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" of many MORE that will ALSO unfold upon the earth following that *FIRST* SEAL that Jesus Himself will open, when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6 [Lam2:3-4 parallel the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a at the START of the [7-]trib yrs [Dan9:27a(26b)], not its MIDDLE (v.1:4/Dan9:27b) nor its ENDING (v.8b/Dan9:27c)])
Again... biblically, the word "RETURN" is applicable ONLY to [the time-slot of] His "RETURN" TO THE EARTH ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallel in Matt24]... and His dealing out of responsibilities: "have thou authority over 10 CITIES... [and] over 5 CITIES" Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"), that is, in Rev19 (at the END of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period)... but WAY BACK in Rev4-5 (b/f the FIRST SEAL is OPENED) we see ppl IN Heaven SAYING "and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... and Paul had said he would receive a crown/stephanos "IN THAT DAY" (not the day of his death), and not to him ONLY.
What you are doing it simply lumping a bunch of stuff together into "3.5 SECONDS" at the moment of His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, instead of recognizing where these things fit into a spans of time of much more duration than you are seeing.[/QUOTE]
I suppose you mean this ^ will take place in a time-slot of 7 SECONDS or 3.5 SECONDS??
(No, I think not.)
Again, this verse literally reads, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that know not God [...]"
Do you think this means, during a time-slot of 7 SECONDS or 3.5 SECONDS??
So, to you, "to recompense trouble [3.5 SECONDS'-worth] to them that trouble you [ONGOINGLY and not MOMENTARILY]"??
So, for us, "the FIERY TRIAL that is to TRY you" is of a somewhat lengthy duration, but "in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON [those others]" cannot possibly be of a duration more than 3.5 SECONDS, in your view??
"Who SHALL be" doesn't mean precisely at that moment (of the time-period being presently addressed), but identifying their end/outcome. (namely "eternal destruction...")
"...when He shall come TO BE glorified IN HIS saints, AND to be admired in all those having believed because 'the testimony of us to you' was believed IN THAT DAY [this second part of the sentence not speaking of the Thess "in THIS day," but those [future 'saints'] in and experiencing the Trib yrs "IN THAT DAY"--they are who it is who are the ones "having believed 'the testimony of us to you,'" as opposed to OTHERS who will INSTEAD "believe 'THE LIE/the FALSE/the PSEUDEI" in that SAME TIME-PERIOD: "IN THAT DAY"/"the DAY OF THE LORD" time-period, when the "man of sin" will exist on the earth and DO ALL he is slated TO DO during it [or, during the 7-yr "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT OF it])
...which is not 3.5 SECONDS'-worth...
Granted, the part about the "who SHALL suffer ETERNAL DESTRUCTION AWAY FROM the Lord..." part, YES.
But prior to that, the 7-YRS-worth of it during the "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT, which is the 7-yr TRIB yrs... the yrs "they shall not ESCAPE" out of (in contrast to those who WILL obey the instruction of Lk21:36 and thus be enabled to FLEE OUT OF [same Grk word as "ESCAPE" ^ ] each and every thing taking place IN/DURING the trib (i.e. the TRIB 'saints'--those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture")
In part it is, and in part he's speaking of us... He's not just covering "one point," here, but several (and of MORE THAN merely a spans of "3.5 SECONDS'-worth" of time)
The "salvation" Paul is mostly covering in his Thess epistles is an "eschatological salvation" ("the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING" 1Th1:10, for one example)... where "the wrath coming" is what will take place ON THE EARTH (in the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period [commencing with the INTIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" of many MORE that will ALSO unfold upon the earth following that *FIRST* SEAL that Jesus Himself will open, when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6 [Lam2:3-4 parallel the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a at the START of the [7-]trib yrs [Dan9:27a(26b)], not its MIDDLE (v.1:4/Dan9:27b) nor its ENDING (v.8b/Dan9:27c)])
Again... biblically, the word "RETURN" is applicable ONLY to [the time-slot of] His "RETURN" TO THE EARTH ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallel in Matt24]... and His dealing out of responsibilities: "have thou authority over 10 CITIES... [and] over 5 CITIES" Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"), that is, in Rev19 (at the END of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period)... but WAY BACK in Rev4-5 (b/f the FIRST SEAL is OPENED) we see ppl IN Heaven SAYING "and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... and Paul had said he would receive a crown/stephanos "IN THAT DAY" (not the day of his death), and not to him ONLY.
What you are doing it simply lumping a bunch of stuff together into "3.5 SECONDS" at the moment of His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, instead of recognizing where these things fit into a spans of time of much more duration than you are seeing.[/QUOTE]
So ^ , where it says, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..."
...I believe this is parallel to the wording in Lam2:3-4 (note the words "cut off the horn of" and "enemy" and how these are both used here in these two verses as well as further down in the Lam2 passage, in vv.17-19), which says, "3 ...he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy..." (amidst "wrath" words/context):
Lam2 -
3 In fierce anger He has cut off
every horn b of Israel
and withdrawn His right hand
at the approach of the enemy [/'from before the enemy'--i.e. lifting His "restraint" and letting the "enemy" HAVE AT IT!].
He has burned in Jacob like a flaming fire
that consumes everything around it.
4 He has bent His bow like an enemy;
His right hand is positioned.
Like a foe He has killed
all who were pleasing to the eye;
He has poured out His wrath like fire
on the tent of the Daughter of Zion.
[...]
17 The LORD has done what He planned;
He has accomplished His decree,
which He ordained in days of old;
He has overthrown you without pity.
He has let the enemy gloat over you
and exalted the horn c of your foes.
18 The hearts of the people
cry out to the Lord. d
O wall of the Daughter of Zion,
let your tears run down like a river
day and night.
Give yourself no relief,
and your eyes no rest.
19 Arise, cry out in the night
from the first watch of the night. e
Pour out your heart like water
in the presence of the Lord.
Lift up your hands to Him
for the lives of your children
who are fainting from hunger
on the corner of every street.
[note: none of this was taking place in a matter of a few SECONDS, but transpiring over a matter of SOME TIME, just as in the future DOTL time-period ("IN THE NIGHT" / the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that will last 7 yrs / 2520 days / "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"... per Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 [the "future" aspects of that Book] and its related passages)]
...I believe this is parallel to the wording in Lam2:3-4 (note the words "cut off the horn of" and "enemy" and how these are both used here in these two verses as well as further down in the Lam2 passage, in vv.17-19), which says, "3 ...he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy..." (amidst "wrath" words/context):
Lam2 -
3 In fierce anger He has cut off
every horn b of Israel
and withdrawn His right hand
at the approach of the enemy [/'from before the enemy'--i.e. lifting His "restraint" and letting the "enemy" HAVE AT IT!].
He has burned in Jacob like a flaming fire
that consumes everything around it.
4 He has bent His bow like an enemy;
His right hand is positioned.
Like a foe He has killed
all who were pleasing to the eye;
He has poured out His wrath like fire
on the tent of the Daughter of Zion.
[...]
17 The LORD has done what He planned;
He has accomplished His decree,
which He ordained in days of old;
He has overthrown you without pity.
He has let the enemy gloat over you
and exalted the horn c of your foes.
18 The hearts of the people
cry out to the Lord. d
O wall of the Daughter of Zion,
let your tears run down like a river
day and night.
Give yourself no relief,
and your eyes no rest.
19 Arise, cry out in the night
from the first watch of the night. e
Pour out your heart like water
in the presence of the Lord.
Lift up your hands to Him
for the lives of your children
who are fainting from hunger
on the corner of every street.
[note: none of this was taking place in a matter of a few SECONDS, but transpiring over a matter of SOME TIME, just as in the future DOTL time-period ("IN THE NIGHT" / the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that will last 7 yrs / 2520 days / "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"... per Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 [the "future" aspects of that Book] and its related passages)]
First lay a groundwork of agreement
Dead i christ rise first
The church is gathered
The jews firstfruits gathered.
Main harvest of jews gathered.
Maybe you belive something else.
But all postribs by "their own law of interpretation" can NOT open their mind to the rapture VERSES being a total impossibility of the second coming on white horses
Dead i christ rise first
The church is gathered
The jews firstfruits gathered.
Main harvest of jews gathered.
Maybe you belive something else.
But all postribs by "their own law of interpretation" can NOT open their mind to the rapture VERSES being a total impossibility of the second coming on white horses
The Bible very plainly states that the rapture happens after the Great Tribulation, at the same time that Jesus returns. The Elect (Christians) on the Earth will be gathered by Jesus' angels:
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 13:24-27
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21:25-28
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The Olivet discourse is pretty point blank, even describing in detail what "the tribulation of those days" is referring to.
There just simply is no way to undo what the Bible says about the order events that characterize the end times, the great tribulation, return of Christ, rapture/resurrection.
Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?
Now that some proper exegesis has been laid down, let's answer this question. The answer is most likely yes even though it is not explicitly stated.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
What this is saying is that there must be a falling away first and foremost. What is the falling away, then? The falling away is of the church. How does the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture relate to this? People will be utterly disillusioned when Jesus does not return when they expect him to. This will cause many to abandon their faith and set up the perfect conditions necessary for a lawless world.
Jesus said that we are the salt of the earth. Do we as Christians not preserve society with good morals? Once the falling away is complete, moral and spiritual decay will flourish because the salt will have lost it's flavor.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 13:24-27
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21:25-28
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The Olivet discourse is pretty point blank, even describing in detail what "the tribulation of those days" is referring to.
There just simply is no way to undo what the Bible says about the order events that characterize the end times, the great tribulation, return of Christ, rapture/resurrection.
Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?
Now that some proper exegesis has been laid down, let's answer this question. The answer is most likely yes even though it is not explicitly stated.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
What this is saying is that there must be a falling away first and foremost. What is the falling away, then? The falling away is of the church. How does the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture relate to this? People will be utterly disillusioned when Jesus does not return when they expect him to. This will cause many to abandon their faith and set up the perfect conditions necessary for a lawless world.
Jesus said that we are the salt of the earth. Do we as Christians not preserve society with good morals? Once the falling away is complete, moral and spiritual decay will flourish because the salt will have lost it's flavor.
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These ^ verses are not saying, "gather together... FROM the uttermost part of the earth [as though this is its ORIGINATION-point] TO the uttermost part of heaven [as though this is its DESTINATION-point]".
No.
This is saying, "from the extremities" (no place left out), from where they have been "scattered"... like it says in Deut30:3-5 -
"3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven [/of the heavens], from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with the following passage:
Isa27:12-13 -
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates d to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not "AS ONE," as *we* will be! ] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.
This is NOT the "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event.
This is repeated by many (as to what they think the passage is saying and how it will play out), but... to be brutally honest... it is hogwash.
Many in "Christendom" (those not "saved") will enter the Trib yrs (following "our Rapture"), to be sure, but that is not to say "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will enter it (to/of whom "Rapture" SOLELY pertains [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]). Those "unsaved" of "Christendom" are the "Lukewarm" [NOT SAVED] of Rev3 ([said] "to the churchES")... of whom the Lord says, He will "spew out of His mouth" (Who "[He] would [rather] they be HOT OR COLD--that is, CONNECTED TO THE SOURCE, but ARE NOT, and so...) who will enter the Trib years, but whom He also counsels to "buy of Me gold TRIED IN THE FIRE..."... when "the hour of trial" commences to unfold upon the earth (i.e. the START of the [7-]trib yrs).
No.
This is saying, "from the extremities" (no place left out), from where they have been "scattered"... like it says in Deut30:3-5 -
"3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven [/of the heavens], from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with the following passage:
Isa27:12-13 -
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates d to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not "AS ONE," as *we* will be!
] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.This is NOT the "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event.
This is repeated by many (as to what they think the passage is saying and how it will play out), but... to be brutally honest... it is hogwash.
Many in "Christendom" (those not "saved") will enter the Trib yrs (following "our Rapture"), to be sure, but that is not to say "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will enter it (to/of whom "Rapture" SOLELY pertains [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]). Those "unsaved" of "Christendom" are the "Lukewarm" [NOT SAVED] of Rev3 ([said] "to the churchES")... of whom the Lord says, He will "spew out of His mouth" (Who "[He] would [rather] they be HOT OR COLD--that is, CONNECTED TO THE SOURCE, but ARE NOT, and so...) who will enter the Trib years, but whom He also counsels to "buy of Me gold TRIED IN THE FIRE..."... when "the hour of trial" commences to unfold upon the earth (i.e. the START of the [7-]trib yrs).