The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[brightfame52]

Erm that's before Jesus dies for sins .

Does not matter. Sins were still forgiven by Christ Blood before He died for them. The old testament saints had forgiveness of sins. David said Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no guile.

 

[throughfaith]

Does not matter. Sins were still forgiven by Christ Blood before He died for them. The old testament saints had forgiveness of sins. David said Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Wow you don't know your bible. God never took away sins in the old testament.Read hebrews 9

 

[brightfame52]

verse?

I gav

verse please ?

Rom 4:5

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

 

[Guojing]

Does not matter. Sins were still forgiven by Christ Blood before He died for them.

You subscribe to Covenant Theology?

 

[throughfaith]

I gav

Rom 4:5

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

but believeth. his faith is counted for righteousness. HIS FAITH is counted
for righteousness ,then he is justified.

 

[brightfame52]

Wow you don't know your bible. God never took away sins in the old testament.Read hebrews 9

Yes He did. PS 103 12

As far as the east is from the west,
so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

You don't know the bible nor understand Heb 9

 

[throughfaith]

Yes He did. PS 103 12

As far as the east is from the west,
so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

You don't know the bible nor understand Heb 9

removed !!!! not taken away . Otherwise Jesus need not have died .

 

[brightfame52]

but believeth. his faith is counted for righteousness. HIS FAITH is counted
for righteousness ,then he is justified.

Yes because faith reveals that people are justified while being ungodly. It plainly stated justified the ungodly, while being in a ungodly state.

 

[brightfame52]

removed !!!! not taken away . Otherwise Jesus need not have died .

Same thing. Yes they were removed by Christ Blood, that is why He must die. God had already removed sins based on His Death.

 

[throughfaith]

Yes because faith reveals that people are justified while being ungodly. It plainly stated justified the ungodly, while being in a ungodly state.

Again your putting a calvinist philosophy ( regeneration precedes faith ) before scripture. God justifies the ungodly THROUGH FAITH

 

[throughfaith]

Same thing. Yes they were removed by Christ Blood, that is why He must die. God had already removed sins based on His Death.

His blood was only shed at the cross , not before the cross .

 

[brightfame52]

Again your putting a calvinist philosophy ( regeneration precedes faith ) before scripture. God justifies the ungodly THROUGH FAITH

You not ungodly when you are a believer. They were justified while being ungodly present tense.

It's the same principle as being reconciled to God while being enemies. Same thing

 

[throughfaith]

You not ungodly when you are a believer. They were justified while being ungodly present tense.

It's the same principle as being reconciled to God while being enemies. Same thing

No verse says that a person is justified prior to receiving Jesus . John 1.12

 

[Funkus]

If I may, I’f this is true, then we would not die physically. Did I misunderstand you?

i think that Christ established a path that people can follow and receive salvation
i don't understand the big debate on the mechanics of how it transpired or how it applies, this seems like an infatuation with how a car engine works compared to where you want to drive to and go and visit. i do not know how my car engine works despite having some basic mechanical knowledge i can't claim to be an expert on it's function or all the expertise associated with it's design. But I can still drive it and go places and fix it with my rudimentary skills. Did God ever promise we would know how it all works in this life? I don't see that, i just struggle to understand how come more people don't question the point of trying to know things to an unknowable level of detail, without diluting Christ and his ability to save of course but that is also lost in overly technical debates so i'm just confused generally by many of the things on this forum that make no sense at all to me

 

[Grandpa]

um, yes i am speaking directly to the thread topic, like a good little forum member.

so -- we could go lots of places to answer, 'where/how was atonement made by Christ Jesus' with the same net result -- let's arbitrarily go here:

For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness ​

(Romans 3:22-25) ​

​

that's NKJV; NIV & a few others have 'sacrifice of atonement' instead of propitiation, handily justifying my using the word in a substitutionary ((get it?)) way. the Greek is literally 'mercy seat' interestingly enough, which Weymouth, YLT & Darby faithfully put.

so here's where we are -- 1 John 2:2 tells us that Christ is the mercy-seat/propitiation/atoning sacrifice for not only those who put their faith in Him ((re: 1 John 5:13)) but also for the whole world, which is spoken of in no uncertain terms as being those outside the faith.
Romans 3:25 tells us that this mercy-seat/propitiation/atoning sacrifice is by His blood.
so we have two places that can have taken place -- at the cross, or at the heavenly altar where He presented His blood shed at the cross. if we examine the figure presented by the law, both the sacrifice & the sprinkling of blood take place in the temple - so it's hardly material which which of these we settle on for where that atonement took place, at least for the purposes of 1 John 2:2 and the thread topic.

→ Christ died not only for His sheep but for those who are not His sheep. that's what scripture says.


i would like to ask how you get out of this conclusion?
and i would like to ask your opinion on the implications of this conclusion..?
the matter of how it is that this atonement is effective for the believer but ineffective for the unbeliever ((re: John 8:24)) is a separate matter, IMHO

if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.
(John 8:24)


How can Christ take away the sins of the whole world and be the propitiation of the sins of the whole world if those who do not believe in Christ die in their sins?


Wouldn't you neccessarily HAVE TO conclude that the 'whole world' must refer to the whole world of people who believe in Christ? People who don't exist yet, therefore are not the Lords Sheep, but people who will exist in the future and become the Lords Sheep. Or people who are born gentile but are brought into the fold by Christ. However you want to look at it.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

 

[brightfame52]

His blood was only shed at the cross , not before the cross .

The merits of His Blood was before the cross. I just showed you PS 103:12

John Gill writes on that verse:

So far hath he removed our transgressions from us; which removed men and angels from God, and set them at a distance from him; and which, if not removed, are such burdens as must sink men down into the lowest hell; and yet cannot be removed by anything that they can do; not by any sacrifices, services, or duties of any kind; nor in any other way, nor by any other person, than the Lord himself: and this is to be understood not of a removal of the being of sin out of his people, for that is not done in this life; rather of the removal of the guilt of sin, by a special application of pardoning grace and mercy; see 2 Samuel 12:13, but, best of all, of a removal of sins to Christ, and of them by his sacrifice and satisfaction: Christ engaged as a surety for his people; Jehovah the Father considered him as such; and therefore did not impute their sins to them, but to him; and when he sent him in the likeness of sinful flesh, he removed them from them, and laid them upon him; who voluntarily took them on himself, cheerfully bore them, and, by bearing them, removed the iniquity of the land in one day; and carried them away to the greatest distance, and even put them away for ever by the sacrifice of himself; and upon the satisfaction he gave to divine justice, the Lord removed them both from him and them; justified and acquitted him, and his people in him: and by this means so effectually, and so far, are their transgressions removed, that they shall never be seen any more, nor ever be imputed to them, nor be brought against them to their condemnation; in consequence of which, pardon is applied to them, and so sin is removed from their consciences, as before observed; see Leviticus 16:21.

 

[throughfaith]

if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.
(John 8:24)


How can Christ take away the sins of the whole world and be the propitiation of the sins of the whole world if those who do not believe in Christ die in their sins?


Wouldn't you neccessarily HAVE TO conclude that the 'whole world' must refer to the whole world of people who believe in Christ? People who don't exist yet, therefore are not the Lords Sheep, but people who will exist in the future and become the Lords Sheep. Or people who are born gentile but are brought into the fold by Christ. However you want to look at it.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

John 8 is before Jesus dies for sins . I'm amazed how many miss this point?

You not ungodly when you are a believer. They were justified while being ungodly present tense.

It's the same principle as being reconciled to God while being enemies. Same thing

The world is reconciled to God in the sense of 2cor 5.19. Their sins are paid for . They now need to recieve this reconciliation.

 

[throughfaith]

The merits of His Blood was before the cross. I just showed you PS 103:12

John Gill writes on that verse:

John Gill....the CALVINIST..WAKEY WAKEY !!

 

[Duskey]

removed !!!! not taken away

I don’t understand the difference.

 

[brightfame52]

John 8 is before Jesus dies for sins . I'm amazed how many miss this point?
The world is reconciled to God in the sense of 2cor 5.19. Their sins are paid for . They now need to recieve this reconciliation.

Some people are going to die in their sins Jn 8:24 so their sins are not paid for. The wrath of God is on some for their sins Eph 5:5-7

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.