Why have the Sign Gifts Ended
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So there was no point to the comment.
As long as he follows the book he will be fine.
Point remains that it must be learned through study. The Holy Spirit guides the study if one is a believer. God has been merciful in providing His word in languages that we all are able to understand that we might become wise unto salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
As long as he follows the book he will be fine.
Point remains that it must be learned through study. The Holy Spirit guides the study if one is a believer. God has been merciful in providing His word in languages that we all are able to understand that we might become wise unto salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The whole of Joel's prophecy in chapter 2 is dealing with the coming of the Lord and the establishment of the promised blessings associated with the Kingdom. When Peter quotes from Joel in Acts Ch. 2, he is pointing to one of the aspects of Joel's prophecy:
Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.
Peter points to an explanation, for those in attendance, as to why they are hearing the men of Galilee speaking in the languages of other regions (Acts 2:9-13). This was a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. A Divine foretaste of the Kingdom age to come. In Acts 2, verses 28 and 29, the event was not fully realized. The Holy Spirit was not poured out on "all" flesh. This complete fulfillment will take place in the Kingdom when the Lord returns. We know it was a foretaste because the other events associated with Joel's prophecy did not take place:
Joel 2:30-32 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.
These highlighted elements did not take place in Acts 2 or in 70AD. These events are the same as mentioned in the following verses:
Mat 24:29-30 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power.
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; and great glory.
Rev 6:12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood;
Therefore it would be utter foolishness to say that Joel's prophecy found it's fulfillment in the events of Acts 2.
For those who try to dismiss the concepts of foreshadowing and foretasting, you really need to go back and study the Old Testament. The OT was nothing but a shadow of the coming person and completed work of Jesus Christ. Heb. 10:1 For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh.
How can any one come to the conclusion that Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in the events of Acts? This would take a serious leap of error to ignore all of the Scriptures that would forbid such a conclusion, of which I have given only a few.
Further, Peter uses the last part of Joel's prophecy to set-up his message for those in attendance. Compare these two and you will see what I am getting at:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.
With:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
Peter now once again, as Christ did many times himself, turns the Jewish listeners attention to the fact that Jehovah and Christ are one and the same.
Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.
Peter points to an explanation, for those in attendance, as to why they are hearing the men of Galilee speaking in the languages of other regions (Acts 2:9-13). This was a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. A Divine foretaste of the Kingdom age to come. In Acts 2, verses 28 and 29, the event was not fully realized. The Holy Spirit was not poured out on "all" flesh. This complete fulfillment will take place in the Kingdom when the Lord returns. We know it was a foretaste because the other events associated with Joel's prophecy did not take place:
Joel 2:30-32 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.
These highlighted elements did not take place in Acts 2 or in 70AD. These events are the same as mentioned in the following verses:
Mat 24:29-30 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power.
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; and great glory.
Rev 6:12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood;
Therefore it would be utter foolishness to say that Joel's prophecy found it's fulfillment in the events of Acts 2.
For those who try to dismiss the concepts of foreshadowing and foretasting, you really need to go back and study the Old Testament. The OT was nothing but a shadow of the coming person and completed work of Jesus Christ. Heb. 10:1 For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh.
How can any one come to the conclusion that Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in the events of Acts? This would take a serious leap of error to ignore all of the Scriptures that would forbid such a conclusion, of which I have given only a few.
Further, Peter uses the last part of Joel's prophecy to set-up his message for those in attendance. Compare these two and you will see what I am getting at:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.
With:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
Peter now once again, as Christ did many times himself, turns the Jewish listeners attention to the fact that Jehovah and Christ are one and the same.
In his letter to the church of Corinthians Paul wrote as follow
1 chorinthian 14
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Verse 1 Paul encourage member of the church of Chorinthian to desire the gift of prophecy.
This is letter to chorinthian, not to fellow apostle.
That mean the gift of prophecy is not only for apostle.
1 chorinthian 14
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Verse 1 Paul encourage member of the church of Chorinthian to desire the gift of prophecy.
This is letter to chorinthian, not to fellow apostle.
That mean the gift of prophecy is not only for apostle.
I tend to view this as a partial fulfillment, too. But there is no real case for cessationism. The prophecy started to be fulfilled around 33 AD (or 36 or 37 or wherever you place the events). But there is no case for cessationism, here. Why would the prophecy start to be fulfilled, and then we'd have thousands of years without it being fulfilled before its more complete fulfillment.
If an amil chipped in he might say that sun to darkness and the moon to blood is allegorical for something that happened. Usually, online posters can't give you exactly what these metaphors are supposed to allegorically refer to. But I do not see that part as fulfilled. We still live in the last days. There is no reason to think God will not pour out His Spirit.
If an amil chipped in he might say that sun to darkness and the moon to blood is allegorical for something that happened. Usually, online posters can't give you exactly what these metaphors are supposed to allegorically refer to. But I do not see that part as fulfilled. We still live in the last days. There is no reason to think God will not pour out His Spirit.
Peter refers it in Acts 2 as "in the last days".
Peter's Sermon at Pentecost
14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.[b] 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
Peter's Sermon at Pentecost
14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.[b] 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
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Yes it is true that others possessed the ability of prophecy in addition to the Apostles but the real question here is: Is the gift of "prophecy" spoken of in the Corinthian letter, the ability to receive "direct" revelation and/or predictive revelation OR is this referring to the ability to "speak forth" the Word of God in general revelation, (as to one coming to a revelation through study and aid of the Holy Spirit)?
If one believes this is "direct" revelation being spoken of, then give textural support, within the context, to prove this point. I maintain there is no such support for this interpretation. There is nothing in the immediate context to prove "direct" revelation or "predictive" revelation is being spoken of in this portion of the Epistle.
If one believes this is "direct" revelation being spoken of, then give textural support, within the context, to prove this point. I maintain there is no such support for this interpretation. There is nothing in the immediate context to prove "direct" revelation or "predictive" revelation is being spoken of in this portion of the Epistle.
I agree with the two main points of your post. Acts 2 cannot be used as a proof for cessationism. However it does raise the question: Why is the Holy Spirit going to again bring about these sign gifts at the end of the age if they did not play out at some time in the past? If they are continuing as you argue, then why don't they just continue into the Kingdom age?
As to the A-millennial view of this event or any other, to spiritualize away those things that will really take place, what can one say? Maybe that their view of Eschatology shows that they are as lost as a Rocky Mountain Billy Goat.
As to the A-millennial view of this event or any other, to spiritualize away those things that will really take place, what can one say? Maybe that their view of Eschatology shows that they are as lost as a Rocky Mountain Billy Goat.
I noticed I botched my quoting on the previous post(s).
What about the time of the indignation or the time of the wrath?
I say the 'time of the indignation' or the 'time of the wrath' is broken in two parts:
first part: was the old testament period between the time of the fall of adam and the time of Jesus of Nazareth. So this period has passed.
second part: The new testament period between Jesus of Nazareth and the very end. It seems you are referring to the very end as the "Day of the Lord".
So the Day of the Lord could refer to just the very end. Or "the end" could refer to the whole latter half of 'the time of wrath', which would be 1st century AD to the very end.
What I feel:
The Devil had wrath on God's people in the old testament era.
But then the Devil was defeated in 1st century AD
So the Devil, now defeated, has greater wrath on God's people in the new testament era (1st century AD and beyond).
Let us examine these two verses in two different translations.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 8:19 ESV
He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.
Daniel 11:36 ESV
“And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 8:19 NIV
He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.
Daniel 11:36 NIV
"The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.
-----------------------------------------------------------
What about the time of the indignation or the time of the wrath?
I say the 'time of the indignation' or the 'time of the wrath' is broken in two parts:
first part: was the old testament period between the time of the fall of adam and the time of Jesus of Nazareth. So this period has passed.
second part: The new testament period between Jesus of Nazareth and the very end. It seems you are referring to the very end as the "Day of the Lord".
So the Day of the Lord could refer to just the very end. Or "the end" could refer to the whole latter half of 'the time of wrath', which would be 1st century AD to the very end.
What I feel:
The Devil had wrath on God's people in the old testament era.
But then the Devil was defeated in 1st century AD
So the Devil, now defeated, has greater wrath on God's people in the new testament era (1st century AD and beyond).
Let us examine these two verses in two different translations.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 8:19 ESV
He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.
Daniel 11:36 ESV
“And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 8:19 NIV
He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.
Daniel 11:36 NIV
"The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.
-----------------------------------------------------------
What do you mean by inderict prophecy?
Like preach a bout prophecy?
I don't think preach about prophecy mean prophecy.
Act 21
10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
A gabus is not among 12 apostle but he prophecy
Like preach a bout prophecy?
I don't think preach about prophecy mean prophecy.
Act 21
10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
A gabus is not among 12 apostle but he prophecy
The part of Joel fulfilled at Pentecost is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. The rest of verse 28 is future and will likely be during the tribulation. It is specifically Jewish folks that will dream dreams and prophecy not Gentiles. There is a clear defining line in the passage between all flesh and your sons, daughters, and old men.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Vs 10 never happened in Peter's life.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Vs 10 never happened in Peter's life.