TONGUES false teaching.

[calibob]

@Scribe @Ahwatukee @JaumeJ @Magenta @EleventhHour @posthuman @seoulsearch @TabinRivCA @tanakh @tourist @up @zeroturbulence and anyone else following or stumbles onto this thread.

Please pardon me for the distraction. Lately and old enemy has resurfaced insidiously. It's been bothering for a couple of years but it was more of an irritating distraction rather than something trying to take over overtly. It's name is Cultism. We've had many disputes as of late but I didn't recognize the real enemy till this week.

Before I got saved I was surrounded by religious nonsense. Many folks around me quoted the Pope, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, L. Ron Hubbard...Let's not leave out Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart & Oral Roberts. I couldn't tell the difference. The list seemed to never end. They (Those that tried to convert or reconvert me) all had special books and wanna be prophets (some even had TV shows) and of course they were the only one's right. I made a decision to stop listening to what others had to say and reading their propaganda tracts, Watchtower, Book of Mormon etc. and Just stick to the Bible. I was Sola Scriptura before I ever heard of it.

I made that decision in the late 70's against most wannabe and some true Christians advice. I was told that I needed to submit to an authority, a church a pastor... I That I would go to hell or die because of my rebellion. Bla, bla bla. The result was I think that I did better than most by studying the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, God help me please. HE DID!

As most of you already know I've gotten very involved with some churches. Gotten a little education, worked for charities' and so on. I had an adult Sunday School Teacher named WALTER MARTIN.

He was fondly and respectfully known as "the father of Christian cult apologetics." Many current professional and academic cult apologists credit him with their introduction to the field. He held four earned degrees, having received his Doctorate from California Coast University in the field of Comparative Religions. Author of a dozen books, a half-dozen booklets, and many articles, he was known nationwide as "The Bible Answer Man," host of one of the oldest and most popular nationally syndicated call-in radio programs. He was founder and director of the Christian Research Institute, located in Southern California, which continues to provide cult apologetics information and to sponsor the ever-popular Bible Answer Man daily broadcast.

Fast forward; 2018, I joined Christian Chat. I quickly made some friends, which I still consider friends (though some have left) and a few enemies. Mainly unforgiving Law givers, Judaizers, wannabe Pharisees and hardcore homophobes that seem to think that Homosexuality is near equal to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but other forms of adultery are more forgivable. Then came the Calvinists quickly followed by the "Ye Must Speak in Tongues and prove that ye are saved" Pentecostal extremists, that we were just talking about here, before I butted in. The Trumpkins also are/have developed into a sub cult. Several on CC don't realize that they are in it yet. We here on CC are always getting questions about Islam, LDS & JW's as well as others.

I've recently downloaded a revised (PDF) version of Dr. Martins book "Kingdom of the Cults" and I'm currently looking for the ear markings and methods of cults in order to identify, categorize and witness to them.

Not all cultists are antichrists or Occult related and we shouldn't hate them, rather help them if we can. Remember while there's usually less than 60 of us participating on CC (according to the sidebar) there may be thousands watching. I'm thinking of starting a new Cult Studies thread on the Miscellaneous Forum. I don't want to start alone. Would anybody like to join or help me?

This would not be a ministry for the short tempered, judgmental or hard hearted. That describes who we'll be dealing with. (I'm glad Dcon's not here for this now)

P.S. I have testimonies on the bottom of the forums list if anybody wants to look and the CRA, Christians in Recovery Anonymous on the Misc. Forum too. (if you want to look or share)

 

[Absolutely]

It seems to me that a study from Genesis to Revelation is required for the simple meaning of the word tongues. Beginning in Genesis, till the Tower of Babel, mankind spoke one language. As a punishment, other tongues were created, by God.

Often God warned the Jews that they would incur suffering for their disobedience by people with another tongue. Then Isaiah gives a prophesy, “For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.”

At Pentecost the Jews from other lands heard evangelizing, in their own tongue.

Tongues were a result of disobedience and then used to evangelize a stubborn people.

They were a warning then and I see them as a warning now. If any doctrine is viewed with blinders, one can make it out to be anything they want, including tongues.

if you read Pauls comments, it is exactly opposite of yours.

 

[Absolutely]

@Scribe @Ahwatukee @JaumeJ @Magenta @EleventhHour @posthuman @seoulsearch @TabinRivCA @tanakh @tourist @up @zeroturbulence and anyone else following or stumbles onto this thread.

Please pardon me for the distraction. Lately and old enemy has resurfaced insidiously. It's been bothering for a couple of years but it was more of an irritating distraction rather than something trying to take over overtly. It's name is Cultism. We've had many disputes as of late but I didn't recognize the real enemy till this week.

Before I got saved I was surrounded by religious nonsense. Many folks around me quoted the Pope, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, L. Ron Hubbard...Let's not leave out Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart & Oral Roberts. I couldn't tell the difference. The list seemed to never end. They (Those that tried to convert or reconvert me) all had special books and wanna be prophets (some even had TV shows) and of course they were the only one's right. I made a decision to stop listening to what others had to say and reading their propaganda tracts, Watchtower, Book of Mormon etc. and Just stick to the Bible. I was Sola Scriptura before I ever heard of it.

I made that decision in the late 70's against most wannabe and some true Christians advice. I was told that I needed to submit to an authority, a church a pastor... I That I would go to hell or die because of my rebellion. Bla, bla bla. The result was I think that I did better than most by studying the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, God help me please. HE DID!

As most of you already know I've gotten very involved with some churches. Gotten a little education, worked for charities' and so on. I had an adult Sunday School Teacher named WALTER MARTIN.

He was fondly and respectfully known as "the father of Christian cult apologetics." Many current professional and academic cult apologists credit him with their introduction to the field. He held four earned degrees, having received his Doctorate from California Coast University in the field of Comparative Religions. Author of a dozen books, a half-dozen booklets, and many articles, he was known nationwide as "The Bible Answer Man," host of one of the oldest and most popular nationally syndicated call-in radio programs. He was founder and director of the Christian Research Institute, located in Southern California, which continues to provide cult apologetics information and to sponsor the ever-popular Bible Answer Man daily broadcast.

Fast forward; 2018, I joined Christian Chat. I quickly made some friends, which I still consider friends (though some have left) and a few enemies. Mainly unforgiving Law givers, Judaizers, wannabe Pharisees and hardcore homophobes that seem to think that Homosexuality is near equal to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but other forms of adultery are more forgivable. Then came the Calvinists quickly followed by the "Ye Must Speak in Tongues and prove that ye are saved" Pentecostal extremists, that we were just talking about here, before I butted in. The Trumpkins also are/have developed into a sub cult. Several on CC don't realize that they are in it yet. We here on CC are always getting questions about Islam, LDS & JW's as well as others.

I've recently downloaded a revised (PDF) version of Dr. Martins book "Kingdom of the Cults" and I'm currently looking for the ear markings and methods of cults in order to identify, categorize and witness to them.

Not all cultists are antichrists or Occult related and we shouldn't hate them, rather help them if we can. Remember while there's usually less than 60 of us participating on CC (according to the sidebar) there may be thousands watching. I'm thinking of starting a new Cult Studies thread on the Miscellaneous Forum. I don't want to start alone. Would anybody like to join or help me?

This would not be a ministry for the short tempered, judgmental or hard hearted. That describes who we'll be dealing with. (I'm glad Dcon's not here for this now)

P.S. I have testimonies on the bottom of the forums list if anybody wants to look and the CRA, Christians in Recovery Anonymous on the Misc. Forum too. (if you want to look or share)

I witness to watchtower people.

i have learned over the years to take the narrative to them.

they are masters at sidetracking.

the narrative must CENTER on the deity of Jesus.(is he created,or CREATOR)

that is the narrative.

that is the game changer.

that is basically salvation.

salvation is not a prayer or concept per se,

salvation is a person.

If it were not God on the cross,the entire deal is off.

 

[Absolutely]

...but yes,you have a worthy and needed ministry to expose and oppose cults.

 

[calibob]

When you cut through all the smoke you see that the conclusion was not reached but only confirmed.

The source is hardly recognized as a solid fundamental doctrinal institution.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The problem Roger is the word fundamental. It is fundamentally ambiguous. Many groups consider their doctrines fundamental but disagree with others who consider themselves fundamentalists too.

 

[Sipsey]

if you read Pauls comments, it is exactly opposite of yours.

Really? So, your saying Paul says tongues are “Not” for communicating some information?

 

[calibob]

Really? So, your saying Paul says tongues are “Not” for communicating some information?

Who were you addressing?

 

[Dino246]

Speaking in tongues I do believe is the God given miracle of preaching the actual gospel in a language you do not know and haven't studied to people who's language actually is the language you are speaking. Anything else, incoherent mumbling, is a farce and likely the instigation of Satan and his demons. in my opinion!

You are welcome to your opinion, but don't make the mistake of thinking that your opinion is consistent with the teaching of Scripture. You have completely overlooked the manifestation called interpretation of tongues. You have also overlooked the case of Cornelius in Acts 10.

If a person is preaching in the local language by the power of the Holy Spirit, no interpretation is needed. If a person has learned the local language, that is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit (as even unbelievers can do that). Paul said not to speak in tongues unless there was an interpretation. Your version has no need of interpretation.

 

[Magenta]

That's a little out of context Roger. I just looked it up in the Berean translation 3rd edition where we go:

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.

Being that I'll be 67 about the week after Easter and I have cataracts, glaucoma and tinnitus. I can easily understand why things tend to fail as we get older. For the record I've never been a member of any church that calls itself Pentecostals and parted ways with the Assemblies of God over refusing to allow divorced people membership. I'm what's called a Charismatic and believe that the gifts are still with us. Always gave been. However we all don't receive them and most that actually do don't necessarily speak in tongues, heal the sick, prophecy etc. We all don't receive the same gift.

One thing that has infuriated me for decades is when a group takes a part of scripture, out of context. Then make their limited understand of the same piece of text and build a dogma around it. Like so many Pentecostal's, Holy Rollers and AoG's have. Don't allow the denominations to confuse your understanding of scriptures, please.

In the Pauline letters it seems very clear to me that he is saying that not all have gifts manifested in obvious ways. Not all that do receive the more overt gifts like Prophecy, healings and or tongues recieve the same portion of the same gifts and don't make it a show or use them to show off. The very first Gifts are grace, love, faith, etc.
The following are the first fruits of Salvation. Not what Pentecostal and AoG dogma might try to bash into our heads.

Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.

Romans 5:1-5

 

[Sipsey]

Who were you addressing?

That was a response to “Absolutely“ who responded to my comment with, “if you read Pauls comments, it is exactly opposite of yours.”

 

[Dino246]

Instead of accusations toward me, why not take the time to post why what I have said is not Biblical????

To say anyone is wrong and not explain WHY is incomprehensible!

That makes what you said simply your opinion.

This is rich, coming from you.

 

[Absolutely]

Really? So, your saying Paul says tongues are “Not” for communicating some information?

Tongues were a result of disobedience and then used to evangelize a stubborn people.

They were a warning then and I see them as a warning now.

i don't get any of that from paul

 

[Absolutely]

That was a response to “Absolutely“ who responded to my comment with, “if you read Pauls comments, it is exactly opposite of yours.”

lol
he must have me on ignore

 

[kaylagrl]

I do not agree with you. I actually do not have an opinion at all.

From the very 1st post I have made it a priority to quote Scripture and not to make opinions.

No.....I have not attend ALL of them and I never said that i had. I actually said....."as many Pentecostal church meetings as I have ".

Did you actually read the Scriptures???? Did you see my name attached to what was in your Bible. Now allow me to post again the actual words of the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 14:34..........
"women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not pemitted to to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. "

Is that what the Bible says????

Read chapters 12-14 and anyone can see that the CONTEXT is "Tongues". Then Paul says in 14:34.....
"women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not pemitted to to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. "

What did PAUL then mean?????

Women should not drive cars to church? Are cars in the CONTEXT of chapter 12 - 14?
Women should not stand up in church? Is standing up the context of chapter 12-14?
Women should not wave their hands in church. Is waving hands in the context of chapters 12-14?

Instead of attacking me for posting what the BIBLT ACTUALLY SAYS why don;t you just simply say this...........
"I do not care what PAUL said in the Bible. I am going to speak in tongues because that is WHAT I WANT TO DO".

I do not mean to be a smart illack.....but that is what all of you are saying whether you believe it or not. I am just being brutally honest and it hurts because it says to not do something that you WANT TO DO.

You attended a handful of meetings and heard a couple women speak in tongues. So with that you twist a verse completely out of context and say "dem womens need to shut up" and wonder why you're getting your behind kicked. Your whole purpose on this forum is to bash Pentecostals, and you're playing the victim. Love these people that come to set everyone else straight. Just get right down to bashing then don't have the foggiest understanding of why people "attack" them. Really rich. Makes blanket statements and then is stunned when people call him out on utter foolishness. These people are soooo boring.

 

[Absolutely]

You are welcome to your opinion, but don't make the mistake of thinking that your opinion is consistent with the teaching of Scripture. You have completely overlooked the manifestation called interpretation of tongues. You have also overlooked the case of Cornelius in Acts 10.

If a person is preaching in the local language by the power of the Holy Spirit, no interpretation is needed. If a person has learned the local language, that is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit (as even unbelievers can do that). Paul said not to speak in tongues unless there was an interpretation. Your version has no need of interpretation.

yep
cessationists better brush that one off their play list.

 

[Absolutely]

You attended a handful of meetings and heard a couple women speak in tongues. So with that you twist a verse completely out of context and say "dem womens need to shut up" and wonder why you're getting your behind kicked. Your whole purpose on this forum is to bash Pentecostals, and you're playing the victim. Love these people that come to set everyone else straight. Just get right down to bashing then don't have the foggiest understanding of why people "attack" them. Really rich. Makes blanket statements and then is stunned when people call him out on utter foolishness. These people are soooo boring.

paul did recieve from powerful women.

To think he wanted women muzzled is not biblical.

The corinthians were outta whack

Paul IMO was putting them under a kind of martial law.

 

[Sipsey]

i don't get any of that from paul

I’m speaking to the larger picture here. The over arching use and purpose. Pauls words to the Corinthian Church were filled with admonishments and the Church itself was dealing with many issues, many that sprang from having many immature members. Much like many Churches today.

 

[kaylagrl]

I have heard and read many reasons (excuses) as to why a particular person will have decided to have nothing to do with tongues and that's fine. That is their decision.

However this nonsense you have posted above, is beyond reason. There is no scripture that says what you are trying to make it say. There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that when Paul mentions let women keep silence, he was thinking of tongues. Now to begin with, Paul does not actually tell all women everywhere for all time to shut up. That is error in and of itself, but to create the false conclusion he was speaking of tongues, illustrates your lack of proper exegetical understanding and an alarming apparent desire to make the Bible agree with your opinion.

Frankly, I honestly could care less if you speak in tongues, wish to speak in tongues or wish everyone would speak in tongues as per Paul.

It is your egregious and faithless rendering about women in general and tongues in particular, that, IMO, renders you one of many false teachers that parade across the internet with abandon, causing harm and leaving nothing of substance in your wake.

Standing ovation over here, you nailed it, could not have said it better.

 

[calibob]

You are welcome to your opinion, but don't make the mistake of thinking that your opinion is consistent with the teaching of Scripture. You have completely overlooked the manifestation called interpretation of tongues. You have also overlooked the case of Cornelius in Acts 10.

If a person is preaching in the local language by the power of the Holy Spirit, no interpretation is needed. If a person has learned the local language, that is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit (as even unbelievers can do that). Paul said not to speak in tongues unless there was an interpretation. Your version has no need of interpretation.

I'm with you most of the way. I believe that Paul was referring to orderly conduct as not to cause a disturbance or distract others from worshiping. There such a thing described as 'prophetic utterances' in the bible in regards to the subject. That should be a personal thing between us and God I believe. It has some inner groanings that we can't articulate. It shouldn't be done during a worship service. I can't recall just where in the New Testament is at the moment. I'm trying to answer my alerts in order. If you want to revisit with me on the subject send me a PM. Cee ya!

 

[SophieT]

Standing ovation over here, you nailed it, could not have said it better.

Dude here has an agenda and you wonder what church he goes to. Thanks!

You know, I am not a cessationist and I have reached the point where if people want to misquote, misspoke and generally mock the gifts, I say let them. A fine example of why God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The heart already had problems.