If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

[Jackson123]

[quoting from old post]

"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism.

"It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.[11] J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star.[13] [...]"

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

So my brother, do you believe verse 3 refer to the antichrist or not?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So you believe 2 thesalonian 2 verse 1 is about rapture, am I correct?

YES!

What Paul want us to know about rapture?

That you cannot be IN and EXPERIENCING "the DOTL [earthly TIME-PERIOD (v.2, 3a)] *because* OUR RAPTURE [IN THE AIR (v.1, 3b)] must take place *FIRST* before it can ARRIVE to unfold upon the earth... (with all of its VERY NEGATIVE THINGS starting with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Jesus ALSO spoke of!)]," what we now call "SEAL #1" at the START OF the 7-yr trib yrs!)



IOW, VERSE 3 is about: how ONE ITEM *fits* IN RELATION TO the OTHER ITEM (TIME-WISE and SEQUENCE-wise)




[said another way, VERSE 3 is about: how ONE ITEM [v.1,3b (OUR RAPTURE/THE DEPARTURE [IN THE AIR])] *fits* IN RELATION TO the OTHER ITEM [v.2,3a (THE DOTL *earthly* TIME-PERIOD unfolding)] (TIME-WISE and SEQUENCE-wise)---and Paul REPEATS THIS *SEQUENCE* THREE TIMES in this CONTEXT, which agrees with other passages on this same Subject!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So my brother, do you believe verse 3 refer to the antichrist or not?

yes, verse 3 is explaining how the ONE ITEM *fits* IN RELATION [time-wise/sequence-wise] TO the OTHER ITEM (which involves the earthly TIME PERIOD that the "man of sin" [/the antichrist] will exist in/during/within and DO ALL he is slated TO DO [7 yr Trib])



[v.3 "that day [v.2's Subject] will NOT be PRESENT if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED..." ... WHEN he IS "REVEALED" that is when "the DOTL" will ALSO "BE PRESENT"... and he is "REVEALED" at the START of the 7-yrs, NOT its MIDDLE nor its END]

 

[Jackson123]

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

Depart from genuine biblical faith, not depart from earth or rapture, read verse 4.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Verse 4 explain verse 3, Remember there was No verse in original manuscripture.

If you interprate aman of sin in verse Will be rapture, a man who oppose God Being rapture, than you oppose the bible as a whole.

Why God rapture a man who oppose Him?

That man of sin. Seem that is singular( I am not expert in grammar)

Rapture Will not only happen to one person, It Will for all believer.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Depart from genuine biblical faith, not depart from earth or rapture, read verse 4.

Again, tell me WHY in Acts 21:21 that the words (in bold) "[apostasian] FROM MOSES" have to be ADDED to the G646 word??

And... tell me... WHY doesn't 2Th2:3's usage of the word G646 NOT MEAN "[apostasia] FROM MOSES" ?? (It doesn't, but WHY NOT, according to you??)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Verse 4 explain verse 3, Remember there was No verse in original manuscripture.

V.4 is simply IDENTIFYING "who he is and what he will DO" (it is NOT saying that the MOMENT he is REVEALED he does this; JUST LIKE v.8a is not speaking of THE SAME MOMENT as what takes place in v.8b!! [7-yrs APART, actually! tho YOU would say "3.5 yrs APART!" ])

If you interprate aman of sin in verse Will be rapture, a man who oppose God Being rapture, than you oppose the bible as a whole.

NO ONE is saying the "man of sin WILL BE RAPTURED" (you are CONFLATING the TWO DISTINCT ITEMS again... one being IN THE AIR, the other being what unfolds upon the earth [including its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those 7 yrs ON THE EARTH]!)

Why God rapture a man who oppose Him?

He's not "rapturing" the "man of sin" (do not CONFLATE the one item "IN THE AIR" with that which will "unfold UPON THE EARTH")


"he apostasia/apo-STASIS" = "THE DEPARTURE" or "a STANDING away from" (away from a previous STANDING), "THE"


["FROM THE FAITH" or "FROM MOSES" is NOT inherent in the word itself!! (THAT is to INJECT something INTO THE WORD that is NOT THERE!)]

That man of sin. Seem that is singular( I am not expert in grammar)

What does this have to do with how the RAPTURE *FITS* IN RELATION (time-wise) TO the presence of the DOTL time-period unfolding upon the earth with its "man of sin" (which is what Paul is conveying).

Rapture Will not only happen to one person, It Will for all believer.[/QUOTE]

"Rapture" will not happen to "the man of sin".

"Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence); ALL those saved "in this present age ["AGE [SINGULAR]"]); Learn WHO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is (Paul, me, believers today, the Corinthians, the Thessalonians, etc etc)... otherwise, me thinks you are perhaps simply delighting in "trolling"???? ( )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [along with that ^ ] -


"By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the *first* tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" in v.4] yet having A STANDING [G4714 - stasin/stasis]. Which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME..." Heb9:8-9a


G4714 - stasin/stasis is used in a NEGATIVE sense, in 8 of its 9 occurrences (and there meaning [or, usages refer to], "a rebel, revolutionist,...an insurrection, dissension, strife, uproar, a popular uprising, controversy");


but HERE, in its 9th occurrence ONLY, is NOT [negative], but means "A STANDING". [stasis/stasin]


[see how this "relates" to our present Subject under discussion ("apo stasis = apo stasia"... our word in v.3)]

 

[Jackson123]

Again, tell me WHY in Acts 21:21 that the words (in bold) "[apostasian] FROM MOSES" have to be ADDED to the G646 word??

Apostate is rebel, apostate from Moses mean rebel again Moses law, or OT

And... tell me... WHY doesn't 2Th2:3's usage of the word G646 NOT MEAN "[apostasia] FROM MOSES" ?? (It doesn't, but WHY NOT, according to you??)

In 2 thesalonian that man is rebel again NT so this verse not use Moses.

 

[Jackson123]

Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence); ALL those saved "in this present age ["AGE [SINGULAR]"]); Learn WHO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is (Paul, me, believers today, the Corinthians, the Thessalonians, etc etc)... otherwise, me thinks you are perhaps simply delighting in "trolling"???? ( )

So you believe 2 tes 2 : 1-4 talking about rapture of the church am I correct?

Verse 3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Why you interprate verse 3 as rapture before a man If sin Being reveal?

 

[Ahwatukee]

So you believe 2 tes 2 : 1-4 talking about rapture of the church am I correct?

Verse 3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Why you interpret verse 3 as rapture before a man If sin Being reveal?

"asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness a is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him = Rapture

The Day of the Lord = The period of God's wrath

Because there were false teachers in Thessalonica teaching that 'the Day of the Lord had already come, the Thessalonians wrote Paul to ask him why they had not been caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Because the order of Paul's teaching is the gathering of the church first, then the Day of the Lord follows.

Therefore, Paul said that the proof that the Day of the Lord had come is the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed.

The Day of the Lord = That day will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

It is very important to understand the difference between the event of "our being gathered to the Lord" vs. The Day of the Lord.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In 2 thesalonian that man is rebel again NT so this verse not use Moses.

"apostasia / apostasis" (apo STASIS) at its most basic meaning: "a STANDING away from [away-from a previous STANDING], or DEPARTURE"

(we do not INJECT "from the faith" OR "from Moses" INTO this WORD, esp because those phrases are NOT ADDED in THIS TEXT/CONTEXT...).



The word simply means "DEPARTURE"... it is up to the CONTEXT to determine just "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE" is meant... and in this context, it is "THE DEPARTURE" (THE ONE Paul had ALREADY/PREVIOUSLY introduced in this CONTEXT in VERSE 1: "our episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM" i.e. OUR RAPTURE)




V.3 is saying "the DOTL earthly-time-period [those who FALSELY are saying *IS PRESENT* (in v.2)] will NOT be PRESENT if not shall have come THE RAPTURE/THE DEPARTURE [IN THE AIR] *FIRST*... "

So you believe 2 tes 2 : 1-4 talking about rapture of the church am I correct?
Verse 3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Why you interprate verse 3 as rapture before a man If sin Being reveal?

The Grk word is NOT "pipto - to fall" (see top of this post for the actual word )

 

[Jackson123]

"asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness a is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him = Rapture

The Day of the Lord = The period of God's wrath

Because there were false teachers in Thessalonica teaching that 'the Day of the Lord had already come, the Thessalonians wrote Paul to ask him why they had not been caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Because the order of Paul's teaching is the gathering of the church first, then the Day of the Lord follows.

Therefore, Paul said that the proof that the Day of the Lord had come is the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed.

The Day of the Lord = That day will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

It is very important to understand the difference between the event of "our being gathered to the Lord" vs. The Day of the Lord.

I don't think that is the topic.
The topic is not the wrath of God.
The question here is the rapture.

Thesalonian not worry If the earth of God already come or not, they re worry If the rapture had been taking place and they left

And Paul say No, antichrist must reveal before the rapture

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thesalonian not worry If the earth of God already come or not, they re worry If the rapture had been taking place and they left

The text does not inform us THAT ^ (in the bold).

The text states (v.2) for them not to be shaken in mind... [by those purporting] "THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative--meaning, already arrived ]*"...



It is PAUL who is bringing up the SUBJECT of the RAPTURE (because of this "problem" that v.2 is spelling out ^^^ );



...the TEXT does NOT say RAPTURE was what was on their minds (or "having missed it" being the source of their distraught minds--NOTHING LIKE THAT is stated in the TEXT)

 

[Jackson123]

The Grk word is NOT "pipto - to fall" (see top of this post for the actual word )

To me The greek word is apostasy

2 Thessalonians 2 - Click for Chapter
3 3361 [e]
3 mē
3 μή
3 No
3 Adv
5100 [e]
tis
τις
one
IPro-NMS
4771 [e]
hymas
ὑμᾶς
you
PPro-A2P
1818 [e]
exapatēsē
ἐξαπατήσῃ
should deceive
V-ASA-3S
2596 [e]
kata
κατὰ
in
Prep
3367 [e]
mēdena
μηδένα
not one
Adj-AMS
5158 [e]
tropon
τρόπον ,
way
N-AMS
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
because [it is]
Conj
1437 [e]
ean
ἐὰν
if
Conj
3361 [e]
mē
μὴ
not [until]
Adv
2064 [e]
elthē
ἔλθῃ
shall have come
V-ASA-3S
3588 [e]
hē
ἡ
the
Art-NFS
646 [e]
apostasia
ἀποστασία
apostasy
N-NFS
4412 [e]
prōton
πρῶτον ,
first
Adv-S
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
601 [e]
apokalyphthē
ἀποκαλυφθῇ
shall have been revealed
V-ASP-3S
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS
444 [e]
anthrōpos
ἄνθρωπος
man
N-NMS
3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
-
Art-GFS
458 [e]
anomias
ἀνομίας ,
of lawlessness
N-GFS
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS

 

[Jackson123]

The text does not inform us THAT ^ (in the bold).

The text states (v.2) for them not to be shaken in mind... [by those purporting] "THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative--meaning, already arrived ]*"...



It is PAUL who is bringing up the SUBJECT of the RAPTURE (because of this "problem" that v.2 is spelling out ^^^ );



...the TEXT does NOT say RAPTURE was what was on their minds (or "having missed it" being the source of their distraught minds--NOTHING LIKE THAT is stated in the TEXT)

If we read from verse 1. It imply thesalonian worry about If rapture had been taking place.

And Paul tel, them, rapture not happen before antichrist Being reveal

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

To me The greek word is apostasy
2 Thessalonians 2 - Click for Chapter
[...]
3588 [e]
hē
ἡ
the
Art-NFS

646 [e]
apostasia
ἀποστασία
apostasy
N-NFS

Right. So please stop using the phrase "A FALLING AWAY" coz the Grk text does not state that ("to fall = pipto"... a word NOT present IN THE TEXT).


"apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis" [APO STASIS <--- study these two Greek words that make up that one word TAKE NOTE of "stasis" in its 9th occurrence (as compared to its other 8 occurrences--SEE WHAT THIS MEANS )]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If we read from verse 1. It imply thesalonian worry about If rapture had been taking place.

No, more like "WE IMPLORE YOU..." (about the Subject [v.1 RAPTURE] Paul is BRINGING TO BEAR on the "problem" that the context is covering)

... proceeding to say, "don't believe THEM / OTHERS telling you the DOTL *IS PRESENT*..." (v.2's Subject)

... then v.3 is Paul telling them WHY is it NOT SO (and explaining the necessary SEQUENCE... BRINGING "RAPTURE" to BEAR [TO their minds!] on the [incorrect] notion v.2 was covering [re: their DISTRAUGHT MINDS due to those saying "that the DOTL *IS PRESENT*"])

... and then at the other end of the CONTEXT, v.15 saying, "BELIEVE *US* and *WHAT WE TAUGHT YOU,* INSTEAD"


... the end result was to bring "comfort and encouragement... and good *hope*" [see the word *hope* in 1Th5:8, with the phrase "[and for an helmet] the HOPE of salvation," which phrase is another reference to "our Rapture" event, i.e. an "eschatological salvation," per CONTEXT]

 

[Jackson123]

No, more like "WE IMPLORE YOU..." (about the Subject [v.1 RAPTURE] Paul is BRINGING TO BEAR on the "problem" that the context is covering)

... proceeding to say, "don't believe THEM / OTHERS telling you the DOTL *IS PRESENT*..." (v.2's Subject)

... then v.3 is Paul telling them WHY is it NOT SO (and explaining the necessary SEQUENCE... BRINGING "RAPTURE" to BEAR [TO their minds!] on the [incorrect] notion v.2 was covering [re: their DISTRAUGHT MINDS due to those saying "that the DOTL *IS PRESENT*"])

... and then at the other end of the CONTEXT, v.15 saying, "BELIEVE *US* and *WHAT WE TAUGHT YOU,* INSTEAD"


... the end result was to bring "comfort and encouragement... and good *hope*" [see the word *hope* in 1Th5:8, with the phrase "[and for an helmet] the HOPE of salvation," which phrase is another reference to "our Rapture" event, i.e. an "eschatological salvation," per CONTEXT]

Yep, Paul told thesalonians when rapture taking place.

Not confused by false information

And verse 15 Paul implore them to go back to what they was believe.

 

[ewq1938]

"apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis" [APO STASIS <--- study these two Greek words that make up that one word TAKE NOTE of "stasis" in its 9th occurrence (as compared to its other 8 occurrences--SEE WHAT THIS MEANS )]

All you are doing is breaking up a word so you can change it's definition. Paul was speaking of people committing Apostasy and we know what that word means. Chopping words into pieces to change the meaning is Eisegesis at it's finest.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

All you are doing is breaking up a word so you can change it's definition. Paul was speaking of people committing Apostasy and we know what that word means. Chopping words into pieces to change the meaning is Eisegesis at it's finest.

No. It is eisegesis to INJECT "from the faith" into this word.

In other contexts (during that same era) this word was used in "the departing of a boat from a dock" and "the departing of a fever" (a spatial/geographical "departure"... and even its verb form is used something like 13 of its 15 occurrences in such a way, i.e. the MAJORITY of times [ex: "... and forthwith the angel departed [G868] from him." Acts 12:10c])

CONTEXT determines WHAT KIND.

Not ALL of its usages refer to departing from some "faith issue".

In Acts 21:21 it refers to "a departure FROM MOSES" (but not in THIS text under discussion). It is up to the reader to view the CONTEXT to tell "WHAT KIND" of departure.




[quoting from BibleHub... the NOUN G646]


"646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure [...] – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.""


[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine (and don't forget, THIS CONTEXT has the DEFINITE ARTICLE with the word!)]


Note ^ : everything outside of the parenthesis ^ is DIRECTLY ABOUT the NOUN G646 - apostasía


Link: Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia)



____________

Here's the lexicon info (for G646):

[quoting]


Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -


ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις

[this ^ says: "apostasia late form for apostasis" (i.e. the SAME WORD)]




Then when you go to the entry for "apostasis" (it says under that entry):

ἀπόστασις ἀφίσταμαι

a standing away from, and so,

1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.
2.departure from, βίου Eur.
3.distance, interval, Plat.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis

[end quoting]

____________



I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, ewq1938.

 

[ewq1938]

I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, ewq1938.

If you won't accept what Apostasy means then I cannot help you. You should also look up what "root fallacy" is because that's what you are doing when you chop up the Greek word so you can avoid it's true meaning.