The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[Absolutely]

Like i already told you.
The CRUX of the debate is "is the rapture the SAME as the 2nd coming".

Do you realize that is the entirety of the debate??????

you NEED it to be the same.

if it is not ,then your ENTIRE DEAL falls apart.

IOW,postrib rapture hits one of many "impossibilities"
It is not the same as conjecture and speculation.

(and there are others)

like rev 13 ;15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

I wonder why the Holy Spirit made that dynamic to show all that all christians left behind die and are martyred by the ac.

see that????? All believers are killed or take the mark.

 

[echoChrist]

Like i already told you.
The CRUX of the debate is "is the rapture the SAME as the 2nd coming".

Do you realize that is the entirety of the debate??????

you NEED it to be the same.

if it is not ,then your ENTIRE DEAL falls apart.

I already showed you your prism.
your latest reply REVEALS IT.
IOW ,your entire plan is this; "show me where Jesus said he wore/didn't wear a white robe, prove it, then I will believe it."

we know he did
we do not have a verse to help you not dig, research and hunger for the truth.

Even with help,you refuse to get to the heart of the matter.

Then show a verse that says theirs a secret rapture and then second coming I haven't chose a view yet because I'm still gathering all information i can so I have no deal to fall apart.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I said biblical text not you pasting things together.

Did you scroll back to my Post #161 and see where I had put what v.3 says (after Paul tells them in v.2 not to be troubled by those falsely telling them that "THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]*"... It wasn't and Paul tells "WHY" [in the next verse, v.3]):


"[v.3] that day [the DOTL from v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."



notice... ONE THING *FIRST* (not BOTH of those things FIRST), which distinguishes them.



[end quoting that small excerpt from Post #161 (Page 9) from that thread I linked]



____________

Notice:

"[v.3] that day [the DOTL (EARTHLY) from v.2! (NOT the noun-event [IN THE AIR] FROM VERSE 1!) ] will not be present if [...]"...




People tend to SKIP BACK OVER and PAST verse 2 to GRAB verse 1 when identifying just WHAT "that day" in v.3a is speaking of, but that is not grammatically correct.




(ONE [v.1's Subject] is "IN THE AIR" and the other [v.2's Subject] unfolds UPON THE EARTH over the course of SOME TIME--they are TWO DISTINCT ITEMS [NOT TO BE EQUATED], and Paul is informing of the SEQUENCE between these TWO)

 

[echoChrist]

Did you scroll back to my Post #161 and see where I had put what v.3 says (after Paul tells them in v.2 not to be troubled by those falsely telling them that "THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]*"... It wasn't and Paul tells "WHY" [in the next verse, v.3]):


"[v.3] that day [the DOTL from v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."



notice... ONE THING *FIRST* (not BOTH of those things FIRST), which distinguishes them.



[end quoting that small excerpt from Post #161 (Page 9) from that thread I linked]



____________

Notice:

"[v.3] that day [the DOTL (EARTHLY) from v.2! (NOT the noun-event [IN THE AIR] FROM VERSE 1!) ] will not be present if [...]"...




People tend to SKIP BACK OVER and PAST verse 2 to GRAB verse 1 when identifying just WHAT "that day" in v.3a is speaking of, but that is not grammatically correct.




(ONE [v.1's Subject] is "IN THE AIR" and the other [v.2's Subject] unfolds UPON THE EARTH over the course of SOME TIME--they are TWO DISTINCT ITEMS [NOT TO BE EQUATED], and Paul is informing of the SEQUENCE between these TWO)

First im sorry I know you know what your trying to explain but you do it in a very confusing way also if the rapture did happen why would I need a separate event afterwards to prove it happened that makes zero sense and another thing if true believers suddenly vanished I think everyone would notice they wouldn't need man of sin to appear to say oh that was rapture it wasn't alien abduction or would they food for thought.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

First im sorry I know you know what your trying to explain but you do it in a very confusing way

My apologies.

I do know the feeling (when I read some others' posts). = )

also if the rapture did happen why would I need a separate event afterwards to prove it happened that makes zero sense

Can you clarify what you mean by that ^ ? I have no clue what you are trying to say, here. Sorry.

and another thing if true believers suddenly vanished I think everyone would notice they wouldn't need man of sin to appear to say oh that was rapture it wasn't alien abduction or would they food for thought.

They may likely notice ppl disappeared (unless the world is on major "lockdown" preceding and at the time!)... but this is where [comes in, each of these]:

--(for SOME) [re: our Rapture event that just took place] "God shall send THEM *strong delusion* IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"

--(for OTHERS, and esp SOME of Israel) [re: our Rapture event that just took place] is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that turns Israel [a believing REMNANT, not 100% of them] to their Messiah (Jesus Christ), and THEY go on to [be the ones to] DO the "INVITING" TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [i.e. earthly MK age (Matt24:14/26:13... and Matt22:8-14, Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7], etc...)]




[Paul, in these 2 chpts, is showing the CONTRAST between those two distinct "BELIEFS" ppl will come to, when they are IN the trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture"--and once we grasp/see that, we can begin to piece together just WHAT "the LIE/FALSE/PSEUDEI" will be... and it won't be about "aliens" (I'm not saying NO ONE will suggest such a thing... but that this is not what "THE LIE/FALSE/PSEUDEI" will consist of)]

 

[echoChrist]

My apologies.

I do know the feeling (when I read some others' posts). = )



Can you clarify what you mean by that ^ ? I have no clue what you are trying to say, here. Sorry.




They may likely notice ppl disappeared (unless the world is on major "lockdown" preceding and at the time!)... but this is where [comes in, each of these]:

--(for SOME) [re: our Rapture event that just took place] "God shall send THEM *strong delusion* IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"

--(for OTHERS, and esp SOME of Israel) [re: our Rapture event that just took place] is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that turns Israel [a believing REMNANT, not 100% of them] to their Messiah (Jesus Christ), and THEY go on to [be the ones to] DO the "INVITING" TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [i.e. earthly MK age (Matt24:14/26:13... and Matt22:8-14, Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7], etc...)]




[Paul, in these 2 chpts, is showing the CONTRAST between those two distinct "BELIEFS" ppl will come to, when they are IN the trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture"--and once we grasp/see that, we can begin to piece together just WHAT "the LIE/FALSE/PSEUDEI" will be... and it won't be about "aliens" (I'm not saying NO ONE will suggest such a thing... but that this is not what "THE LIE/FALSE/PSEUDEI" will consist of)]

I'm sorry you lost me.

 

[echoChrist]

My apologies.

I do know the feeling (when I read some others' posts). = )



Can you clarify what you mean by that ^ ? I have no clue what you are trying to say, here. Sorry.




They may likely notice ppl disappeared (unless the world is on major "lockdown" preceding and at the time!)... but this is where [comes in, each of these]:

--(for SOME) [re: our Rapture event that just took place] "God shall send THEM *strong delusion* IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"

--(for OTHERS, and esp SOME of Israel) [re: our Rapture event that just took place] is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that turns Israel [a believing REMNANT, not 100% of them] to their Messiah (Jesus Christ), and THEY go on to [be the ones to] DO the "INVITING" TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [i.e. earthly MK age (Matt24:14/26:13... and Matt22:8-14, Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7], etc...)]




[Paul, in these 2 chpts, is showing the CONTRAST between those two distinct "BELIEFS" ppl will come to, when they are IN the trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture"--and once we grasp/see that, we can begin to piece together just WHAT "the LIE/FALSE/PSEUDEI" will be... and it won't be about "aliens" (I'm not saying NO ONE will suggest such a thing... but that this is not what "THE LIE/FALSE/PSEUDEI" will consist of)]

I really am trying to get on same paige is you I'm not messing with you also that reference you didn't understand was something I heard somewhere else so I wouldn't worry I thought you were in agreement with.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay, it's fine... we can just try to come back to this thread at a different time, if there are any needs/desire for further elaboration/explanation.

I'll just leave you with this verse, for now (to ponder = ) ):

Acts 3:21 [Peter speaking to as-yet unsaved "ye men of Israel" AFTER Jesus' resurrection/ascension/exaltation] -

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [speaking of OT prophecies (the ones as yet unfulfilled) spoken by the OT prophets]





[one of the "purposes" for the trib yrs is to bring Israel into the new covenant; the event of "our Rapture" is a PRIMARY IMPETUS (accomplished SOLELY BY GOD/CHRIST alone--IOW, we are PASSIVE in being "caught UP/-AWAY" [rapture event]) that helps turn Israel to their Messiah (Jesus Christ), in/during/within the trib yrs leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth]

 

[echoChrist]

Okay, it's fine... we can just try to come back to this thread at a different time, if there are any needs/desire for further elaboration/explanation.

I'll just leave you with this verse, for now (to ponder = ) ):

Acts 3:21 [Peter speaking to as-yet unsaved "ye men of Israel" AFTER Jesus' resurrection/ascension/exaltation] -

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [speaking of OT prophecies (the ones as yet unfulfilled) spoken by the OT prophets]





[one of the "purposes" for the trib yrs is to bring Israel into the new covenant; the event of "our Rapture" is a PRIMARY IMPETUS (accomplished SOLELY BY GOD/CHRIST alone--IOW, we are PASSIVE in being "caught UP/-AWAY" [rapture event]) that helps turn Israel to their Messiah (Jesus Christ), in/during/within the trib yrs leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth]

we can discuss this again im just consumed in the word trying to line everything up alot of people don't realize revelation is not in chronological order you can't just pick and choose who you want someone to be in a text like 24 elders for instance I know Jesus tells us at least who 12 are his faithful disciples. Here's how prophecy works in my eyes like Daniel for instance he wasn't meant to understand the prophecy given to him its for the people living in the time its suppose to come to pass thats why we are coming to more understanding but its not a full picture painted for us as you see it unfolding you will say oh thats what that is.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

we can discuss this again im just consumed in the word trying to line everything up alot of people don't realize revelation is not in chronological order you can't just pick and choose who you want someone to be in a text like 24 elders for instance I know Jesus tells us at least who 12 are his faithful disciples. Here's how prophecy works in my eyes like Daniel for instance he wasn't meant to understand the prophecy given to him its for the people living in the time its suppose to come to pass thats why we are coming to more understanding but its not a full picture painted for us as you see it unfolding you will say oh thats what that is.

Well, it's not like it's just a "random choice" kind of thing:

--Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 was saying that the "future" aspects of the Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not unfold over the course of some 2000 years, etc... and this is in CONTRAST to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

--so then you can compare 5:9 (and its related verses about the "24 elders") and see what 1:5-6 already said, and what else was said in the chpts2-3 section that correspond, like "crown/stephanos" and "clothed in white raiment [G2440]" etc... and then what Paul had already said about "IN THAT DAY" etc...

--then you can compare what Numbers 10:4 [re: the pattern of how the 2 trumpets were to "sound" for various PURPOSES] where it says about "But if only one is sounded, then the leaders, the heads of the clans of Israel, are to gather UNTO YOU [/unto Moses]." (distinct PURPOSE, from how the other "patterns-[/sounded]" were to occur)... But one can also take note of the "24 NAMES" where these "leaders, heads" (12 who joined up with one tribe-head[/man], if you will, so 24 TOTAL) were named/listed in an earlier chpt, and "why"...

--and that exactly 2520 days can be traced out from start to finish [of that "time-period"] (woven throughout the text of Rev...)

--etc... things like that...


[have you ever thought about why "John" speaks with "one of the elders" about a certain thing in Rev7 ??, where John answers him by saying "Sir, thou knowest"]

 

[echoChrist]

Well, it's not like it's just a "random choice" kind of thing:

--Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 was saying that the "future" aspects of the Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not unfold over the course of some 2000 years, etc... and this is in CONTRAST to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

--so then you can compare 5:9 (and its related verses about the "24 elders") and see what 1:5-6 already said, and what else was said in the chpts2-3 section that correspond, like "crown/stephanos" and "clothed in white raiment [G2440]" etc... and then what Paul had already said about "IN THAT DAY" etc...

--then you can compare what Numbers 10:4 [re: the pattern of how the 2 trumpets were to "sound" for various PURPOSES] where it says about "But if only one is sounded, then the leaders, the heads of the clans of Israel, are to gather UNTO YOU [/unto Moses]." (distinct PURPOSE, from how the other "patterns-[/sounded]" were to occur)... But one can also take note of the "24 NAMES" where these "leaders, heads" (12 who joined up with one tribe-head[/man], if you will, so 24 TOTAL) were named/listed in an earlier chpt, and "why"...

--and that exactly 2520 days can be traced out from start to finish [of that "time-period"] (woven throughout the text of Rev...)

--etc... things like that...

Well, it's not like it's just a "random choice" kind of thing:

--Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 was saying that the "future" aspects of the Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not unfold over the course of some 2000 years, etc... and this is in CONTRAST to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

--so then you can compare 5:9 (and its related verses about the "24 elders") and see what 1:5-6 already said, and what else was said in the chpts2-3 section that correspond, like "crown/stephanos" and "clothed in white raiment [G2440]" etc... and then what Paul had already said about "IN THAT DAY" etc...

--then you can compare what Numbers 10:4 [re: the pattern of how the 2 trumpets were to "sound" for various PURPOSES] where it says about "But if only one is sounded, then the leaders, the heads of the clans of Israel, are to gather UNTO YOU [/unto Moses]." (distinct PURPOSE, from how the other "patterns-[/sounded]" were to occur)... But one can also take note of the "24 NAMES" where these "leaders, heads" (12 who joined up with one tribe-head[/man], if you will, so 24 TOTAL) were named/listed in an earlier chpt, and "why"...

--and that exactly 2520 days can be traced out from start to finish [of that "time-period"] (woven throughout the text of Rev...)

--etc... things like that...


[have you ever thought about why "John" speaks with "one of the elders" about a certain thing in Rev7 ??]

I promise you I'm not dogmatic I want the truth not man's opinion we can share each others evidence later.

 

[Yahshua]

"[v.3] that day [the DOTL from v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed...

From what I gather TDW, you interpret what's translated as "falling away" (Apostasia) as "the rapture"...and that the strong delusion Paul predicts is its modern translation as "falling away"?

Am I reading your post correctly?

 

[Nehemiah6]

...a lot of people don't realize revelation is not in chronological order...

Actually Revelation is indeed in chronological order, even though there are some parenthetical sections. The chapters noted below are in chronological order also.

SEVEN SEALS
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. (Rev 5:1)

SEVENTH SEAL TRUMPETS
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. (Rev 8:1,2)

SEVENTH TRUMPET VIALS
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God... And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. (Rev 15:1,6)

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Rev 16:1)

 

[echoChrist]

Actually Revelation is indeed in chronological order, even though there are some parenthetical sections. The chapters noted below are in chronological order also.

SEVEN SEALS
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. (Rev 5:1)

SEVENTH SEAL TRUMPETS
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. (Rev 8:1,2)

SEVENTH TRUMPET VIALS
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God... And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. (Rev 15:1,6)

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Rev 16:1)

If you study the whole book of revelation start to finish as chronological order than thats your choice I study it my way.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If you study the whole book of revelation start to finish as chronological order than thats your choice I study it my way.

It is not a choice but a fact. It begins in the first century (with the letters to the seven churches), and ends with the New Heavens and the New Earth having been established. So any attempt to claim that Revelation is not chronological goes against the actual structure of the book, However those who choose fantasy over reality will never come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Absolutely]

From what I gather TDW, you interpret what's translated as "falling away" (Apostasia) as "the rapture"...and that the strong delusion Paul predicts is its modern translation as "falling away"?

Am I reading your post correctly?

It can be translated either way.

If i remember correctly "falling away" is translated from the Greek meaning "from standing" or "departure"
"from the faith" is implied.

It is not a game changer as both ends of the debate can call it either way.
(which i do) i can read it either way and it comes out exactly the same.

 

[Absolutely]

First im sorry I know you know what your trying to explain but you do it in a very confusing way also if the rapture did happen why would I need a separate event afterwards to prove it happened that makes zero sense and another thing if true believers suddenly vanished I think everyone would notice they wouldn't need man of sin to appear to say oh that was rapture it wasn't alien abduction or would they food for thought.

You are not alone
i have to invest way too much time with his brackets and asterisks and style

You [as in#* a person #{ not a personal attack}#* are {ist person SINGULAR{#@**} not (a negative used by paul} alone. (thaat #* means not with someone)

tedious

 

[Absolutely]

double post

 

[echoChrist]

You are not alone
i have to invest way too much time with his brackets and asterisks and style

You [as in#* a person #{ not a personal attack}#* are {ist person SINGULAR{#@**} not (a negative used by paul} alone. (thaat #* means not with someone)

tedious

I know he knows what it means I'm not knocking him I just have hard time deciphering.

 

[Ahwatukee]

First im sorry I know you know what your trying to explain but you do it in a very confusing way also if the rapture did happen why would I need a separate event afterwards to prove it happened that makes zero sense and another thing if true believers suddenly vanished I think everyone would notice they wouldn't need man of sin to appear to say oh that was rapture it wasn't alien abduction or would they food for thought.

Hello EchoChrist!

if the rapture did happen why would I need a separate event afterwards to prove it happened

There is no event that takes place after the gathering of the church as proof that the church has been gathered.

The underlying principle, is that Christ represents every believer, i.e. everything that Jesus accomplished God applies that to us. That said, when we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God, which means that those who believe were brought back into a right relationship with God. Since God's wrath has already been satisfied by Christ, then those who believe are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. This is better than any specific scripture that people demand to see. It is a legal precedent.

Since God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire world, leaving no place to hide, the church must be removed prior to said wrath. This is why Jesus said to always be watching and ready, anticipating His appearing. Consider the following:

I Thessalonians 5:1 "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you"

The 'times and dates' that Paul is referring to is what He just previously spoke about in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, which is the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up.

"for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief "

Paul refers to our being gathered and 'the Day of the Lord' interchangeably, because one gives way to the other, i.e. first the church is gathered with 'the Day of the Lord' to follow. Those who who are like the home owner who is watching so that the thief can't take them by surprise, represent the faithful who are watching and waiting for the Lord's promise to gather us. Once that takes place, the Day of the Lord begins. And the proof that this day has begun, will be the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed.

"While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief

Those who will be saying "Peach and safety" are the unbelieving people of the world, (the wicked)whose hope is in this world. Then Paul says, "But you brothers" which infers the opposite of those who will be on the earth for that sudden time of destruction, i.e. John 14:1-3 and I Thessalonians 4:13-17 will take place.

"You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

The children of the light and day refers to those who believe. Those who belong to the night and darkness are the wicked. The reference to the night and darkness is referring to 'the Day of the Lord,' the time of God's wrath, which believers do not belong to. Before that time of darkness begins, those in Christ will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air according to His promise.