TONGUES false teaching.

[calibob]

Your opinion is just that

when you say
"If you have attended as many Pentecostal church meetings as I have you will agree that what is seen in all of them is the habit of "SPEAKING" in Tongues."

You have not attended all of them therefore you can't be an authority on them. Your understanding of 1Cor chapter 12 through 14 is incorrect. The Holy Spirit does come upon women and women can speak as the Holy Spirit enables This s even in both Old and New Testament. You use descriptive words to insult those you disagree with and yet the word of God in error. That was not emotional response it was addressing ignorance. Merry Christmas.

I know that we haven't always seen eye to eye @CS1 but you just hit the nail (or knuckle) on the head.
Ignorant people are often quick to discredit what they can't, don't or won't understand.
Hey there was a thread by a young man asking about Teen Challenge on the family forum for the last couple of days. You said that you know Mario Marillo. Give the kid some wisdom please and have a Merry Christmas Compadre..

 

[CS1]

God said they would end. Are saying God was mistaken? Tongues ended per 1 Cor 13:8. The other gifts continue but for the rebels against God that is not enough.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No where in the bible does it say the gifts of the Holy have ended. 1cor 13:8 is not the full context that is misrepresentation of that ONE verse. And you have been shown this many, many times. Now you can rest to other false narratives about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are normal response you always do. Again 1cor chapter 12 through 14 are known as unit chapters they are contextually linked. You do not discredit three chapters by taking one verse on of one chapter. Error.

 

[CS1]

I know that we haven't always seen eye to eye @CS1 but you just hit the nail (or knuckle) on the head.
Ignorant people are often quick to discredit what they can't, don't or won't understand.
Hey there was a thread by a young man asking about Teen Challenge on the family forum for the last couple of days. You said that you know Mario Marillo. Give the kid some wisdom please and have a Merry Christmas Compadre..

Merry Christmas

 

[CS1]

If you are speaking of tongues you are right. If you are speaking of praying in tongues you are right.

Men do not pray in tongues and there are no angelic tongues for men to speak.

Mankind is under Gods judgment. Babel is Gods judgment upon mankind for claiming themselves to be equal to God.

Mankind is being judged for Spiritual adultery.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You make comments about people you do not know nor do you know what you are speaking about. Those who are used in the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not under judgement as you suggest. The only spiritual adultery would be you. Because you have to use pagan doctrine to disprove the word of God .

first off:
1. No Pentecostal doctrine about the gifts of the Holy Spirit came from any other place but the bible
2. Your issue is wit the error of those you hate K. Copeland, and other like him. Most of us have already acknowledged HIS error and have left him a lone for the Lord to deal with him as he will with you.

3. You have only one verse in 1cor `3:8 by which you hold your "Doctrine" that tongues have ceased yet, you have been proven wrong but your pride and arrogance will not allow you to concede. And that ok, you are enable to be corrected. I expect after saying this to you , I can imagine you will result to more judgement on me and other who dare to disagree with you. Merry Christmas

 

[Scribe]

It is interesting that you made a lot of personal comments about what you have experienced but you did not make ONE SINLE comment addressing the actual Scriptures on what God said about the issue of tongues.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10.......
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Now the actual, real, literal Word of God as opposed to your experiences, says that there will come a day when PROPHECIES, TONGUES and KNOWLEDGE will cease.

Isn't that what the Bible says my brother???

The only real question then is WHEN.

Verse 10 says it will happen when the PERFECT comes.

The PERFECT can only be one of 3 things.

1. Jesus Christ.
2. Believers dieing and going to Heaven.
4. The Completed Word of God.

Now it can not possibly by #2. WHY???
Let us take another look at the verse whose phrase is in question: ......
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:10).

This verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations

Then for #1 and the Him being the PERFECT. The problem with that understanding is that the original Greek Grammar does not allow for it to be possible.

Now, to say “that which is perfect is come” is a person, is to support strange and awkward and IMPOSSIBLE grammar. The origianal Greek is NEUTER and that means the PERFECT in verse #10 has to be a FEMININE PRONOUN. Jesus Christ was a man = MASCULINE so the word is impossible to mean Jesus Christ.

Additionally, Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would be called “that which is perfect?” Do you think that Paul did not know Jesus and know His name or position.

The original Greek can ONLY refer to an INANTIMATE OBJECT , not a person. The phrase “that which is perfect is come” of 1 Corinthians 10:13 does not refer to Jesus Christ or His return.

That linguistically means that the PERFECT can only refer to the COMPLETED/MATURE Written Word of God.

Now, if you would like to discuss Bible truths instead of personal experiences then I am you daisy. But to debate personal experiences over what you belive you have happen happen to you is not advisable for either one of us.

That which is perfect is come is when we see Jesus face to face. Not even cessationist believe your interpretation is correct. It is bad heremeneutics. F.F. Bruce, who is not a pentecostal and a cessationist but intellectually honest interprets it as the second coming as do all modern scholars. Your following an interpretation that has been put to rest over and over again.

Reading 1 Cor 13 in the context of 1 Cor 12 and 1 Cor 14 tells us that we are to operate in these gifts with the motivation of the gift of Love that has been shed abroad on our hearts by the Holy Ghost until that which is Perfect is Come and we are with Jesus Face to Face no longer seeing in part but having full knowledge and and we will not need these gifts that have been given to the Body of Christ to help edify us because in that day we will have graduated to full Glorification and Perfect Knowledge something that does not happen to you by reading the bible only which is why we still disagree.

 

[CS1]

That which is perfect is come is when we see Jesus face to face. Not even cessationist believe your interpretation is correct. It is bad heremeneutics. F.F. Bruce, who is not a pentecostal and a cessationist but intellectually honest interprets it as the second coming as do all modern scholars. Your following an interpretation that has been put to rest over and over again.

Reading 1 Cor 13 in the context of 1 Cor 12 and 1 Cor 14 tells us that we are to operate in these gifts with the motivation of the gift of Love that has been shed abroad on our hearts by the Holy Ghost until that which is Perfect is Come and we are with Jesus Face to Face no longer seeing in part but having full knowledge and and we will not need these gifts that have been given to the Body of Christ to help edify us because in that day we will have graduated to full Glorification and Perfect Knowledge something that does not happen to you by reading the bible only which is why we still disagree.

They don't accept that Brother. They have been shown that biblically they bring this up because of the issue they have with those who have misused the gifts as we all have said. Yet they like a drug enjoy dis-unity .

 

[Scribe]

They don't accept that Brother. They have been shown that biblically they bring this up because of the issue they have with those who have misused the gifts as we all have said. Yet they like a drug enjoy dis-unity .

Yes, making an argument based on abuses is basing an argument on experience rather than sola scriptura. I am sola scriptura therefore pentecostal/charismatic.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Read 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14. Anyone can see that they are "Corrective" Chapters from Paul to the church and the CONTEXT is .....ready.....
Speaking in tongues".

1 Corinthians 12:1 sets forth the CONTEXT of chapters 12, 13, 14:

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.


The word "gifts" does not appear in the text and the word "spiritual" is the Greek word pneumatikós.

4152 pneumatikós (an adjective, derived from 4151/pneúma, "spirit") – spiritual; relating to the realm of spirit, i.e. the invisible sphere in which the Holy Spirit imparts faith, reveals Christ, etc.​

​

HELPS Word-studies​

So, according to 1 Cor 12:1, the context of the following chapters is spiritual matters of which God would not have us ignorant.

There is more to chapters 12, 13, 14 than the issue of speaking in tongues. For us to focus only one one aspect of that which God would not have us ignorant and ignore all the other spiritual matters of which God would not have us ignorant is foolishness on our part.

 

[Scribe]

It is interesting that you made a lot of personal comments about what you have experienced but you did not make ONE SINLE comment addressing the actual Scriptures on what God said about the issue of tongues.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10.......
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Now the actual, real, literal Word of God as opposed to your experiences, says that there will come a day when PROPHECIES, TONGUES and KNOWLEDGE will cease.

Isn't that what the Bible says my brother???

The only real question then is WHEN.

Verse 10 says it will happen when the PERFECT comes.

The PERFECT can only be one of 3 things.

1. Jesus Christ.
2. Believers dieing and going to Heaven.
4. The Completed Word of God.

Now it can not possibly by #2. WHY???
Let us take another look at the verse whose phrase is in question: ......
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:10).

This verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations

Then for #1 and the Him being the PERFECT. The problem with that understanding is that the original Greek Grammar does not allow for it to be possible.

Now, to say “that which is perfect is come” is a person, is to support strange and awkward and IMPOSSIBLE grammar. The origianal Greek is NEUTER and that means the PERFECT in verse #10 has to be a FEMININE PRONOUN. Jesus Christ was a man = MASCULINE so the word is impossible to mean Jesus Christ.

Additionally, Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would be called “that which is perfect?” Do you think that Paul did not know Jesus and know His name or position.

The original Greek can ONLY refer to an INANTIMATE OBJECT , not a person. The phrase “that which is perfect is come” of 1 Corinthians 10:13 does not refer to Jesus Christ or His return.

That linguistically means that the PERFECT can only refer to the COMPLETED/MATURE Written Word of God.

Now, if you would like to discuss Bible truths instead of personal experiences then I am you daisy. But to debate personal experiences over what you belive you have happen happen to you is not advisable for either one of us.

I never understood it to be a person but rather our condition when we are glorified, post resurrection and see him face to face.
We will then be in a state of perfection knowing as also we are known. No longer seeing through a glass darkly. Such as no longer having this discussion or the ones on the timing of the rapture. LOL

Below is a very thorough paper in the public domain on the interpretation of 1 Cor 13 as presented by both sides throughout the history of the church.

You will find upon careful reading that the great body of scholars side on the interpretation that our being with Jesus in a post resurrection Glorified state will be the fulfilment of this reference to when that which is perfect is come. I understood it that way from the first time I read it as a babe in Christ with no church or religious background whatsoever. However since people have been taught by their pastors and leaders to reinterpret it as referring to the canon of scripture it has become necessary to deprogram such people if they are willing to re examine the text exegetically rather than read into it what is not there.

http://frankviola.org/theperfect.pdf

 

[notuptome]

That which is perfect is come is when we see Jesus face to face. Not even cessationist believe your interpretation is correct. It is bad heremeneutics. F.F. Bruce, who is not a pentecostal and a cessationist but intellectually honest interprets it as the second coming as do all modern scholars. Your following an interpretation that has been put to rest over and over again.

Reading 1 Cor 13 in the context of 1 Cor 12 and 1 Cor 14 tells us that we are to operate in these gifts with the motivation of the gift of Love that has been shed abroad on our hearts by the Holy Ghost until that which is Perfect is Come and we are with Jesus Face to Face no longer seeing in part but having full knowledge and and we will not need these gifts that have been given to the Body of Christ to help edify us because in that day we will have graduated to full Glorification and Perfect Knowledge something that does not happen to you by reading the bible only which is why we still disagree.

The perfect is referring to that which is completed. Jesus is not the object here. Jesus was already here and departed into heaven. His Holy Spirit remains here so there is no anticipation of a change in the Holy Spirit.

The NT is what was only in the process of being delivered by God and upon it's completion the temporary gifts would end. In Joel 2 we see the restoration of some gifts to the Jews.

The object is that the word of God with the Holy Spirit brings lost souls to Christ. The believer is to serve Christ not himself. The believe is to be a witness of the saving power of God through the word, the blood and by the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[calibob]

Yes, making an argument based on abuses is basing an argument on experience rather than sola scriptura. I am sola scriptura therefore pentecostal/charismatic.

Sorry Scribe and @CS1 I had to read both posts twice before I understood that @Scribe was piggybacking on CS1's post. In the version that I memorized long ago it says Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly. Nor standeth in the ways of sinners nor sitteth in the seats of scoffers. But his delight is in the ways of the lord and meditates upon his word both day and night. The ungodly are not so... Magenta made this for me. It's how I feel about quarreling with scornful scoffers. The art work is to show that one with God, through the power of His Holy Spirit is a majority.

davidandgoliath (1).png

• calibob
• Nov 9, 2019

 

[CS1]

The perfect is referring to that which is completed. Jesus is not the object here. Jesus was already here and departed into heaven. His Holy Spirit remains here so there is no anticipation of a change in the Holy Spirit.

The NT is what was only in the process of being delivered by God and upon it's completion the temporary gifts would end. In Joel 2 we see the restoration of some gifts to the Jews.

The object is that the word of God with the Holy Spirit brings lost souls to Christ. The believer is to serve Christ not himself. The believe is to be a witness of the saving power of God through the word, the blood and by the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

wrong you this verse 8 is speaking of the canonization it is not. You and those like you have been wrong with that allegorizing of verse 8 of chapter 13 found in 1cor. You don't even have biblical verses to support your own claim yet you a hypocrite is suggesting other are doing what you are. "That which perfect has come" is not speaking of the word of God Paul knows full well the word of God is perfect already and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God as Paul said it was in Roman 10. 1 Corinthians chapter 12 through 14 is speaking of the PNEUMATIKA and the Charismata the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit also speaks of what is known as the katartismos which Paul covers in Eph 4

The gifts of the Holy Spirit for the three areas of the church body

1. the Pneumatika found in 1cor 12 through 14
2. the Charmata which are also found in 1cor 12
3. there are the Katartismos and didōmi found in mph 4 and 1cor 12 In Hebrew 2:4 read bout the distinction of the Holy Spirt gifts (merizō).

This is all biblical you have not provided any thing to refute this, only one verse you use to rip out three chapter is 1cor 12 -14 will not have any other text or passage to support your claim and have the gall to say we are unbiblical? Please you are buffoon.

 

[CS1]

I think Les Fieldick explains the subject fairly well.(16c) Is the gift of tongues for the Church today ?

I think Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was clear enough chapter 14

37. If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

To those who think they are theologians and use 1cor 13:8 to remove the gifts of the Holy Spirit you can remove verses 37-40 which cause a issue with your understanding of verse 13:8

 

[CS1]

Sorry Scribe and @CS1 I had to read both posts twice before I understood that @Scribe was piggybacking on CS1's post. In the version that I memorized long ago it says Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly. Nor standeth in the ways of sinners nor sitteth in the seats of scoffers. But his delight is in the ways of the lord and meditates upon his word both day and night. The ungodly are not so... Magenta made this for me. It's how I feel about quarreling with scornful scoffers. The art work is to show that one with God, through the power of His Holy Spirit is a majority.

davidandgoliath (1).png

• calibob
• Nov 9, 2019

they idea of that verse of " walk not in the counsel of the ungodly nor mitt in the seat of scoffers" means to not be in agreement with them nor allow one to perceive you are even agreeing but have your understanding in the truth of gods word day and night at all times.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Read 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14. Anyone can see that they are "Corrective" Chapters from Paul to the church and the CONTEXT is .....ready..... Speaking in tongues".

Yes. Those chapters are there to show us how tongues were being abused and how they should not be elevated to any special status. Paul said that he would rather speak 5 intelligible words of prophesy than 10,000 words in tongues. That is a very powerful statement. He also asked the Corinthians to stop being children in this matter.

 

[Scribe]

The perfect is referring to that which is completed. Jesus is not the object here. Jesus was already here and departed into heaven. His Holy Spirit remains here so there is no anticipation of a change in the Holy Spirit.

The NT is what was only in the process of being delivered by God and upon it's completion the temporary gifts would end. In Joel 2 we see the restoration of some gifts to the Jews.

The object is that the word of God with the Holy Spirit brings lost souls to Christ. The believer is to serve Christ not himself. The believe is to be a witness of the saving power of God through the word, the blood and by the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Read this paper as you have time.
http://frankviola.org/theperfect.pdf

 

[calibob]

they idea of that verse of " walk not in the counsel of the ungodly nor mitt in the seat of scoffers" means to not be in agreement with them nor allow one to perceive you are even agreeing but have your understanding in the truth of gods word day and night at all times.

YES I fully understand that, but it has personal meaning to me. I tend to be quarrelsome. It tells me to check myself and get back to the word in the second verse. "But his delight is in the laws of the Lord and he meditates upon it day and night." Just stay in the word and stick to it. Do you remember that I worked for Melodyland in the early 80's. The constant debating led to quarrels which caused the people to take sides against other. Newer sub groups formed. Then it caused the church and it's ministries to split into several factions.

The Church, TBN's home church that spread the word of the Lord by satellite and reached untold millions around the world. Is now gone. Men seeking to glorify themselves by their Theological academics failed to continue Glorifying God. It was un-Christlike and only sewed division. Stick to the truth, tell the truth. Don't act like or sink to the level of the scornful scoffers. Just plant, or water the seeds. Let Gods light bring them up in the way that they should go.

If they refute manmade doctrines and dogmas it's 1 thing. To refute easily understandable, logical scripture only shows intentional ignorance. I prefer to let the Lord and his Spirit get through the prideful road block within their minds. That's why I wrote what I wrote.

A Pastor friend of mine used to say, "They can't get your goat very easily, unless you let them see where it's tied up." Thomas Johnson.

 

[calibob]

Read this paper as you have time.
http://frankviola.org/theperfect.pdf

Remind me later or put the link in a PM. I've got kids to deal with and cookies to share.

 

[Blade]

"Women it seems are the ones who do most of the "Tongues" noises." "The "speaking in tongues" which the Pentecostals foolishly practice are UNKNOWN tongues,"

Lets stick with truth. How many Churches was this? Well there are hundreds of thousand in the USA alone. Also why is "tongues" tagged with Pentecostals? There are Baptist Churches on and on..and even Catholic Churches that speak in tongues.

So from the start forgive me this is just how you personally feel. See we don't go to GOD to tell Him what His word or to others what He really is saying and means. If this was coming form someone we knew that had weight be wise to listen. I have no clue who you are what you believe.

Luke 11:13 in a bible study they asked if I wanted the holy Spirit. One Friday night i said yes. So he reads exactly what the word of God says and that was it. Then asked me again and I said yes. He prayed then just stopped. Said 'thats it you got it". Yeah nothing happen.. see they just took GOD not man GOD at His word. He said if you ask the Father WILL give the holy Spirit to them that ask. So I got up went to sit down and BAM! Tongues just came out.

Now for me it was exactly as Christ said...you shall receive power.... it was like night and day. The sweet holy Spirit that points to talks only about Christ and the Father. Then many years past when I again reading in the word that what happen to them right after they prayed of them they spoke in tongues. It was exactly what happen to me.

Man can try to twist Gods word to fit what we personally believe but GOD said we will cast out demons.. we will speak with new tongues so forth so on. And yes praying in tongues for me ..

In His word He told you you can trust Him. There is only ONE holy Spirit. You ask.. thats what He said He will do. HAHA John 3:16 is so true yet Luke 11:13 is not? Even Christ prayed to the Father for them and they all 120 were filled with the holy Spirit.

The only reason and NOT TO BOAST ,. the only reason I can think of as to why I have seen heard wonders from the Father of our lord Jesus Christ that came in the flesh and was buried and rose the 3rd day the only way to the Father is because I read His word and just believe. Not what i SEE HEAR FEEL.. He is so wonderful awesome holy holy holy are you Father...you just talk about Him and something inside just has to praise and worship Him.. no matter how you feel..

See what HE started in ME HE will finish. Yeah He does not can not make any mistakes. God I know your presence is sounding me I am over taken by majesty being found in you is enough for me.. a song.

 

[JaumeJ]

When no one in the congregation has the gift to interpret, tongues are to be only used in a very low tone while praying and praising.