Why have the Sign Gifts Ended
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look in the mirror and say
We aren't talking about Biblical terminology. What are you talking about? Neither one of us claim to believe in 'apostolic succession. You used the phrase in ways not consistent with standards ways it has used historically and I pointed that out. Your comment makes little sense in the context of our conversation...again. and you suggest that I am the one playing games.
You must understand context to understand what is being taught in any given passage.
We aren't talking about Biblical terminology. What are you talking about? Neither one of us claim to believe in 'apostolic succession. You used the phrase in ways not consistent with standards ways it has used historically and I pointed that out. Your comment makes little sense in the context of our conversation...again. and you suggest that I am the one playing games.
You must understand context to understand what is being taught in any given passage.
The Apostolic Faith, the newsletter of the revival, recorded numerous testimonies from around the world of people who spoke in tongues that were identified by others as real human languages. I think I counted 11 or 12 such cases in two volumes of the newsletter. And I have come across four testimonies of this at the revival meetings there.
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Interesting question!
Miracle number one was the creation of the universe from nothing (ex nihil). I see almost everything as a miracle: ants are miracles, birds are miracles, and human beings much more.
In the current context, I define miracle as God's intervention in the course of a bad event to favor one or more of His little children.
Miracle number one was the creation of the universe from nothing (ex nihil). I see almost everything as a miracle: ants are miracles, birds are miracles, and human beings much more.
In the current context, I define miracle as God's intervention in the course of a bad event to favor one or more of His little children.
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Another reason why extraordinary gifts are misunderstood, is that many today have not taken the time to search all of the Scriptures to see what God's purpose is for these gifts. Herein I narrow the gifts to those such as: Preforming a miracle, Speaking in an unknown language and Healing the sick through extraordinary means. God does not grant these types of demonstrations willy-nilly by His people. They are always for the intent of furthering His purpose and eternal plan.
Example: Moses ability to perform miracles was primarily used to bring about judgement upon Egypt. These Judgements had already been established by God and Moses was God's spoke's person and agent. God had assigned ten judgements upon Egypt and nothing Pharaoh could do was going to stop them.
Exo 4:21 And Jehovah said unto Moses, When thou has gone back into Egypt, see that thou do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in thy hand: but I will harden his heart and he will not let the people go.
Additionally, God desired to show to the unbelieving world His power and establish His name as the ONLY True God:
Rom 9:17 For the scripture is saying unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
The signs and miracles that were performed by Jesus Christ, were in like manner, to authenticate Him as the Son of God and the Great I Am. Just like Moses, Christ only performed the signs and miracles previously given to Him by His Father to do.
-- John 5:19-20 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he is seeing the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel.
-- John 17:6-8 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou have given me out of the world: thine they were, and thou has given them to me; and they have kept thy word. Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee: for the words which thou gave me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me.
Jesus Christ was the only one to always pray in the will of His Father. The believers prayer may or may not be in the will of God. If it is, it is heard by God and if it isn't it is not heard by God.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me.
Likewise the Church or Assembly was temporarily granted these gifts to authenticate and help establish the fledgling assemblies. Also to do the same for the Apostles as they went about their ministerial duties.
Additionally, misunderstandings about some verses cause problems. For instance: Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Wherein many religionist have been taught that the church now possesses the "Keys" and God has granted the church authority to loose or bind whatever they feel should be done. Such are those who say we have the power to "bind" Satan. But this error has occurred, in part, because of the terrible translation of this verse in the KJV and NASB, as well as others. Neither of these translations handles the "Perfect Tense" verb correctly. The "perfect Tense" means that the action of the verb began in the past with continuing results. Expressed in English as "having been, already been or has been" placed before the verb. Let's break this verse down a bit:
Mat 16:19 I will give ( δώσω, A future active indicative verb - will give) unto thee the keys ( authority) of the kingdom of heaven ( οὐρανῶν, A plural noun - heavens): and whatsoever thou shalt bind ( δήσῃς, An aorist active subjunctive verb - might bind) on earth shall be ( εσται, A future middle indicative verb - will be or shall be) bound ( δεδεμενον, a perfect passive participle - has been bound) in heaven (plural again); and whatsoever thou shalt loose ( λυσης, An aorist active subjunctive - might loose) on earth shall be ( εσται, A future middle indicative verb - will be or shall be) loosed ( λελυμενον, A perfect passive participle - has been loosed) in heaven. (plural again).
Therefore the proper translation of this verse would look like this:
Mat. 16:19 I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens: and whatsoever you may bind on earth shall be, having already been bound in the heavens; and whatsoever you may loose on earth shall be, having already been loosed in the heavens.
This translation gives proper handling to the perfect tense verbs. From this we can now see two distinct points:
1) That the keys or authority will be given in the future to the completed assembly which Christ is building and not to any local aspect of the assembly. (This conclusion needs additional space for argument but must be ended here for now)
2) Her authority, will be that which has already been determined in the heavens by God. She (the assembly) will loose and bind in accordance with God's will and in harmony with His Divine Purpose.
Example: Moses ability to perform miracles was primarily used to bring about judgement upon Egypt. These Judgements had already been established by God and Moses was God's spoke's person and agent. God had assigned ten judgements upon Egypt and nothing Pharaoh could do was going to stop them.
Exo 4:21 And Jehovah said unto Moses, When thou has gone back into Egypt, see that thou do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in thy hand: but I will harden his heart and he will not let the people go.
Additionally, God desired to show to the unbelieving world His power and establish His name as the ONLY True God:
Rom 9:17 For the scripture is saying unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
The signs and miracles that were performed by Jesus Christ, were in like manner, to authenticate Him as the Son of God and the Great I Am. Just like Moses, Christ only performed the signs and miracles previously given to Him by His Father to do.
-- John 5:19-20 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he is seeing the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel.
-- John 17:6-8 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou have given me out of the world: thine they were, and thou has given them to me; and they have kept thy word. Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee: for the words which thou gave me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me.
Jesus Christ was the only one to always pray in the will of His Father. The believers prayer may or may not be in the will of God. If it is, it is heard by God and if it isn't it is not heard by God.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me.
Likewise the Church or Assembly was temporarily granted these gifts to authenticate and help establish the fledgling assemblies. Also to do the same for the Apostles as they went about their ministerial duties.
Additionally, misunderstandings about some verses cause problems. For instance: Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Wherein many religionist have been taught that the church now possesses the "Keys" and God has granted the church authority to loose or bind whatever they feel should be done. Such are those who say we have the power to "bind" Satan. But this error has occurred, in part, because of the terrible translation of this verse in the KJV and NASB, as well as others. Neither of these translations handles the "Perfect Tense" verb correctly. The "perfect Tense" means that the action of the verb began in the past with continuing results. Expressed in English as "having been, already been or has been" placed before the verb. Let's break this verse down a bit:
Mat 16:19 I will give ( δώσω, A future active indicative verb - will give) unto thee the keys ( authority) of the kingdom of heaven ( οὐρανῶν, A plural noun - heavens): and whatsoever thou shalt bind ( δήσῃς, An aorist active subjunctive verb - might bind) on earth shall be ( εσται, A future middle indicative verb - will be or shall be) bound ( δεδεμενον, a perfect passive participle - has been bound) in heaven (plural again); and whatsoever thou shalt loose ( λυσης, An aorist active subjunctive - might loose) on earth shall be ( εσται, A future middle indicative verb - will be or shall be) loosed ( λελυμενον, A perfect passive participle - has been loosed) in heaven. (plural again).
Therefore the proper translation of this verse would look like this:
Mat. 16:19 I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens: and whatsoever you may bind on earth shall be, having already been bound in the heavens; and whatsoever you may loose on earth shall be, having already been loosed in the heavens.
This translation gives proper handling to the perfect tense verbs. From this we can now see two distinct points:
1) That the keys or authority will be given in the future to the completed assembly which Christ is building and not to any local aspect of the assembly. (This conclusion needs additional space for argument but must be ended here for now)
2) Her authority, will be that which has already been determined in the heavens by God. She (the assembly) will loose and bind in accordance with God's will and in harmony with His Divine Purpose.
Why is it improper to quote from an Assemblies of God website but proper to quote from McKnight, etc..
The issue is there is nothing in scripture that indicates that the gift of tongues will come before the perfect comes. Before the perfect comes, Paul's speech, thoughts, and understanding are like that of a child compared to afterward when they shall by like an adult, when we shall know fully. The contents of these discussions prove that Christians do not know fully as they are fully known. I Corinthians 1:7 gives us a hint as to how to understand this passage 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And Paul is also leading up to a discussion of the state of the believer at the resurrection of Christ in chapter 15, and also of Christ delivering up the kingdom to God at the end (telos in Greek).
His commentary from 'A new literal translation from the original Greek...' says 'they shall be abolished from the church on earth after it hath obtained sufficient internal strength to support and edify itself'. But who cares what Macknight thinks? A commentary is no better than the strength of the arguments of the commentator, and such an opinion is not reasonable in light of scripture. Spiritual gifts are the means, or at least very clearly a means, of the church edifying itself, and edification is required until Christ returns.
We should not treat quotes from commentaries as if they were sacred inspired scripture.
The issue is there is nothing in scripture that indicates that the gift of tongues will come before the perfect comes. Before the perfect comes, Paul's speech, thoughts, and understanding are like that of a child compared to afterward when they shall by like an adult, when we shall know fully. The contents of these discussions prove that Christians do not know fully as they are fully known. I Corinthians 1:7 gives us a hint as to how to understand this passage 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And Paul is also leading up to a discussion of the state of the believer at the resurrection of Christ in chapter 15, and also of Christ delivering up the kingdom to God at the end (telos in Greek).
His commentary from 'A new literal translation from the original Greek...' says 'they shall be abolished from the church on earth after it hath obtained sufficient internal strength to support and edify itself'. But who cares what Macknight thinks? A commentary is no better than the strength of the arguments of the commentator, and such an opinion is not reasonable in light of scripture. Spiritual gifts are the means, or at least very clearly a means, of the church edifying itself, and edification is required until Christ returns.
We should not treat quotes from commentaries as if they were sacred inspired scripture.
If that is your position, why are you a cessationist? Cessationism is weak on the issue of the sovereignty of God. Basically the cessationist who argues miracles have ceased presumes to assume what God's sovereign plans are for miracles-- that He has no plan for them in this day and age (or no place for miracles done through the saints or whatever limitation the cessationist mind devises.)
In the New Testament, signs and wonders are done to bear witness to the message of Jesus and spiritual gifts edify the church. Can you decree that these are no longer the purposes of God in this day and age? If so, what is your authority for doing so?
Does the principle described in Ephesians 2:10 apply to us today?
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(NKJV)
Did God only care that first century Christians do good works, and leave our good works, the good works of those who believe in Christ in subsequent ages unplanned?
And what about Ephesians 3:10
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, (NKJV)
Do you think God only planned to show His wisdom through the first century church, but doesn't have any particular plans to do so through the church now?
Miracles are not the only good works that the church might do, but they can be among the good works of God. God having planned out good works or having plans for miracles and supernatural gifts is in no way an argument against such things operating today.
You also seem to overlook the fact that the gifts are given to members of the body of Christ for the common good according to I Corinthians 12. The only lengthy set of instructions we have for what to do in scripture (aside from a set of instructions on how not to have communion) assumes the operation of the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and interpretation and commands the church to allow prophesying.
The Bible also says to ask in faith without doubting and for the man who doubts not to think he will receiving anything of the Lord. He Who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. The fact that God has His plans in signs and wonders and spiritual gifts is no excuse for spending our lives working and coming home and plopping down on the couch and watching 12 hours of ESPN or Lifetime until we get sleepy and never sharing the gospel, encouraging others, ministering to the sick, or believing God for answers to prayer, or to work through spiritual gifts.
Here you interject your own ideas, that the gifts were given temporarily to authenticate and help establish the fledgling assemblies. I'm working on organizing an event where church planters will share testimonies and teachings related to their ministry of winning thousands to Christ and establishing new churches. There are plenty of new fledgling assemblies, so why would spiritual gifts have ceased if that is their purpose? And aren't spiritual gifts given until we come to the full measure of he stature of Christ according to Ephesians 4, and didn't Paul write to the Corinthians and all believers, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'? (I Corinthians 1:7.) You seem to be interjecting your own theories of temporariness into the post.
If Christians have misunderstandings, then perfect knowledge has not come yet.
I am familiar with the 'have already been bound in heaven' concept, and I would agree that some of the 'binding Satan' interpretations seem to veer from what some of these passages are saying. But binding and losing is mentioned in Matthew 18 there where the instructions are given for an individual is brought before an assembly after not repenting of his sin. How could this not be an actual local assembly? Paul wanted the fornicator in I Corinthians 5 to be dealt with in a local assembly, not just before the church universal in an esoteric manner.
In the New Testament, signs and wonders are done to bear witness to the message of Jesus and spiritual gifts edify the church. Can you decree that these are no longer the purposes of God in this day and age? If so, what is your authority for doing so?
Does the principle described in Ephesians 2:10 apply to us today?
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(NKJV)
Did God only care that first century Christians do good works, and leave our good works, the good works of those who believe in Christ in subsequent ages unplanned?
And what about Ephesians 3:10
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, (NKJV)
Do you think God only planned to show His wisdom through the first century church, but doesn't have any particular plans to do so through the church now?
Miracles are not the only good works that the church might do, but they can be among the good works of God. God having planned out good works or having plans for miracles and supernatural gifts is in no way an argument against such things operating today.
You also seem to overlook the fact that the gifts are given to members of the body of Christ for the common good according to I Corinthians 12. The only lengthy set of instructions we have for what to do in scripture (aside from a set of instructions on how not to have communion) assumes the operation of the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and interpretation and commands the church to allow prophesying.
The Bible also says to ask in faith without doubting and for the man who doubts not to think he will receiving anything of the Lord. He Who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. The fact that God has His plans in signs and wonders and spiritual gifts is no excuse for spending our lives working and coming home and plopping down on the couch and watching 12 hours of ESPN or Lifetime until we get sleepy and never sharing the gospel, encouraging others, ministering to the sick, or believing God for answers to prayer, or to work through spiritual gifts.
Here you interject your own ideas, that the gifts were given temporarily to authenticate and help establish the fledgling assemblies. I'm working on organizing an event where church planters will share testimonies and teachings related to their ministry of winning thousands to Christ and establishing new churches. There are plenty of new fledgling assemblies, so why would spiritual gifts have ceased if that is their purpose? And aren't spiritual gifts given until we come to the full measure of he stature of Christ according to Ephesians 4, and didn't Paul write to the Corinthians and all believers, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'? (I Corinthians 1:7.) You seem to be interjecting your own theories of temporariness into the post.
If Christians have misunderstandings, then perfect knowledge has not come yet.
I am familiar with the 'have already been bound in heaven' concept, and I would agree that some of the 'binding Satan' interpretations seem to veer from what some of these passages are saying. But binding and losing is mentioned in Matthew 18 there where the instructions are given for an individual is brought before an assembly after not repenting of his sin. How could this not be an actual local assembly? Paul wanted the fornicator in I Corinthians 5 to be dealt with in a local assembly, not just before the church universal in an esoteric manner.
Oh what razor sharp wit.
I used the phrase as it should be used. I do not care how unbelievers use the term. God only reveals to the sinner his need to be saved and the Savior who can save him. The matter becomes complicated when religious folks want to discuss Spiritual matters and are unable to receive the Truth. Pretenders who are unsaved.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I used the phrase as it should be used. I do not care how unbelievers use the term. God only reveals to the sinner his need to be saved and the Savior who can save him. The matter becomes complicated when religious folks want to discuss Spiritual matters and are unable to receive the Truth. Pretenders who are unsaved.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Neither I nor the rest of us will stand before you on the day of judgment to hear your smug pronouncements or thinly veiled judgments based on your biblically indefensible views. . Why not have a bit more humility about such things. I pointed out you used 'apostolic succession to mean something different from what it means to other people and you respond like this.
And your insulting remarks aren't odious? Get real and look in the mirror, Roger. You have nothing constructive to say to me and have gone so far as to imply that I'm not a Christian.
In this and related threads at least, I see no fruit of the Holy Spirit in you; only self-righteous, closed-minded hostility. Go bother someone else.
In this and related threads at least, I see no fruit of the Holy Spirit in you; only self-righteous, closed-minded hostility. Go bother someone else.
Certainly that is true and I agree.
Even the ONE cell of life is a miracle.
However......everything is not a miracle.
I believe that child birth is a miracle but is it actually?.....NO it is not! It is NATURAL and has been God's method of reproducing since Creation.
We tend to call things miracles due to a lack of knowledge and understanding.
Even the ONE cell of life is a miracle.
However......everything is not a miracle.
I believe that child birth is a miracle but is it actually?.....NO it is not! It is NATURAL and has been God's method of reproducing since Creation.
We tend to call things miracles due to a lack of knowledge and understanding.
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AGreed.
Then is the real question of healing actually SPIRITAL or is it physical???
Isaiah said we are healed by His stripes. But is we read the whole Context of that Scriptures we read that ........
"But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. "
We are able to be healed from OR SINS!!!!
James 5:16........
"Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. "
Sadly.......There are many prosperity preachers who teach that physical healing—in this life—is part of the atonement.
Kathern Kulman, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Andrew Womack, Richard Roberts and the list of the prosperty false teachers go on and on and on.
But the hospitals continue to fill. Children continue to die of cancer and the only answer given is that "We did not have enough faith".
Now....PLEASE THINK...this teaching creates the untenable idea that someone can have enough faith to be saved, but not enough faith to be healed. But if you don’t have enough faith to be healed, how do you know you have enough faith to be saved?
The bottom line is that the Atonement is not about being physical healed.
Then is the real question of healing actually SPIRITAL or is it physical???
Isaiah said we are healed by His stripes. But is we read the whole Context of that Scriptures we read that ........
"But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. "
We are able to be healed from OR SINS!!!!
James 5:16........
"Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. "
Sadly.......There are many prosperity preachers who teach that physical healing—in this life—is part of the atonement.
Kathern Kulman, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Andrew Womack, Richard Roberts and the list of the prosperty false teachers go on and on and on.
But the hospitals continue to fill. Children continue to die of cancer and the only answer given is that "We did not have enough faith".
Now....PLEASE THINK...this teaching creates the untenable idea that someone can have enough faith to be saved, but not enough faith to be healed. But if you don’t have enough faith to be healed, how do you know you have enough faith to be saved?
The bottom line is that the Atonement is not about being physical healed.
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So again......the question mas to be asked. IF we/(MAN today) has the ability to heal other men either by paying on of hands, blowing on them or knockings them down........why are YOU and all the people who believe not going from hospital to hospital healing the sick.
WHY do children die of cancer, or anyone else for that matter IF you have the ability to heal them.
ME. personally......I would absolutely be ashamed and scared to death if I really believed that I or others could heal the sick and instead of doing so I spend my time writing posts on an internet forum.
But that is just me.
WHY do children die of cancer, or anyone else for that matter IF you have the ability to heal them.
ME. personally......I would absolutely be ashamed and scared to death if I really believed that I or others could heal the sick and instead of doing so I spend my time writing posts on an internet forum.
But that is just me.