Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[awelight]

Well did Paul speak about unbelievers like you!

"having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

2Tim 3v5

A complete dodge of the questions put before you. They are valid and to the point. If these things are legit as you claim, then why are you not using them to help others? Simple - they are false.

 

[Marcelo]

The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:

Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

Any comments and different perspectives?

Today signs and wonders may come and go according to God's will. Remember the Azuza Street Revival?

In my church miracles still happen from time to time.

 

[Major]

To those who claim to possess these gifts today; Why are you not going to hospitals and clearing them out? Why are you not raising the dead for grieving loved ones? Why are you not prophesying extra- biblical events that have been verified as coming to pass? When have you done things "even greater" than Jesus did?

I say shame on you for allowing so many to die from Covid-19 when you could have went out and healed them.

AMEN brother!

I have said exactly the very same thing for a very long time.

People love to TALK and I for one have heard enough talk. IF there are healing done by faith healers then lets see them empty hosptials and raise the dead!!!!

More action and less talk!

 

[Major]

Today signs and wonders may come and go according to God's will. Remember the Azuza Street Revival?

In my church miracles still happen from time to time.

Do you think that that just might have been an "Emotional" event based on peoples wants instead of the Word of God????

 

[Major]

Today signs and wonders may come and go according to God's will. Remember the Azuza Street Revival?

In my church miracles still happen from time to time.

THen WHY are there so many people dead from the virus??? Does God only work healing miracles in your church instead of hospitals???

 

[Major]

Well did Paul speak about unbelievers like you!

"having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

2Tim 3v5

Do you really thin that it is Christian to accuse another Christian of "UNBELIEF" simply because he does not follow your denominational teachings.???

Is that a Godly way to approach another Christian???

 

[Major]

Hey, well 80% is progress!

The example I used was from the perspective of a new believer, not my own perspective. My faith is solid, and was before I experienced anything miraculous. However, the miraculous events that I have experienced confirm what I already knew from Scripture.

All of the gifts discussed in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and Romans are for this life. We will have no need of prophecy, tongues, healing, teaching, administration, helps, apostles, etc. in the eternal kingdom. Using physical needs as examples only puts the whole issue into practical terms.

BTW, I have no time for Kenneth Copeland or the like, and I don't hold to the "prosperity gospel".

Growth!!!!

I am blessed to read your comments!

I agree with what you just posted. Joy, peace, helps, administration, teaching, love are all needed today.

 

[Artios1]

Unpacking the scriptures, especially on this subject would normally take numerous pages. But I will do my best to be concise and hit the key points with enough information so you can confirm anything I say from the Word…after all, that is the standard for truth.

Probably one of the most disturbing things that has led to much confusion and disappointment when it comes to spiritual “gifts”, was brought on by well-meaning translators. And while most versions have adopted this distortion as God-breathed…. Thankfully, a few, including KJV, put these added words in italic.

Just one word added by translators in four different areas has significantly challenged the foundation of this magnificent subject.
In chapters 12, 13, &14 of I Corinthians the word GIFTS has been added four times …..12:1, as well as 13:2, 14:1 & 14:12. These should be deleted or crossed out in your Bible, as they are not in the original text and not well supplied in these verses.

12:1 Now concerning spiritual (gifts) brethren I would not have you ignorant.

the word “spiritual” in verse 1 is the Greek word (pneumatikos) meaning “that which belongs to, is determined by, influenced by, or proceeds from the spirit” (spiritual matters). By inserting the word GIFTS here, it sets the wrong mental assumption for the rest of this chapter and the proceeding chapters 13 & 14

((although 12:4 does talk about the “diversity of gifts” …..of which there are seven given to the “Church of the Body of Christ” They are →“ The gift of holy spirit given at new birth (Acts 2:38,) → The five gift ministries (Ephesians 4: 8,11), → and the gifts of healing (I Corinthians 12:9) because every healing is a gift, but it is still manifestation thereof.))

Jumping ahead to verse 7
12:7 BUT the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
The word BUT in verse 7 sets in contrast that which precedes it … verses 4-6 was dealing with diversity of gifts & spiritual matters ….. But now it’s changed to MANIFESTATION…..and there is a big difference!

The word manifestation in the Greek is phanerôsis meaning “to be visible,” “bring to light,” …a showing forth of something you already have. And what we already have is → holy spirit (the gift) given to us from God.
What are we to bring to light?
Verse 7 says the spirit. Verse 7 further goes on to say that it is given to every man… (every born again person) to profit withal.

If we wrongly think these are a GIFT, we put ourselves in the position of waiting for God to give us one or more of the “so-called gifts” listed in verses 8-10. It stimulates believers to hope for, pray for, and even beg God for these….. and then to question their righteousness and worthiness, if they do not receive it.

Quick analogy: I give you a Car → that is the gift….. You start the car, turn on the wipers, honk the horn, drive to the store, → that is the operation or manifestation of that car.

You do not sit in the car and hope for the horn to honk, radio to turn, on wipers to work ….because YOU operate those, they came with the car I gave you….just as the 9 manifestations came with the gift that God gave us.

Verses 8-10 goes on to list the 9 manifestations (operations) of the spirit which are available to each and every born-again believer today….. they have not ceased.← (see below)

verse 11 has led to some controversy regarding the words “he wills”
I Cor. 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Some say the words “severely as he will” are referring to “as God wills”. If that were the case then God just contradicted Himself from verse 7 where He stated “is given to every man” Furthermore the word severely is the Greek word idia from idios meaning “ones own”. Of the 114 times the word idios is used in the Bible, this is the only place it is translated "severely". Usually translated “one’s own” “his own” or “your own”.

Still in operation

Since I Corinthians was written to the Church of the Body as stated in 1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Everything in I Corinthians is written to us…which includes the manifestation of the spirit in Chapter 12.

Although some have used 1 Cor 13:8 (out of context) to validate the claim that tongues have ceased.
13:8. Charity never faileth: but whether prophecies, they shall fail; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall vanish away
BUT ….If tongues and prophecy did cease….we wouldn’t know it…. because it also states that Knowledge shall vanish away.


Focusing primarily on the “worship manifestations” Chapter 14 sets the parameters for the use of tongues, tongues with interpretation and prophecy within the fellowship of the believers (Church).
The church of Corinth was a bit off the mark, and Paul by revelation sets them straight as to the use of those manifestations. Paul makes it clear that tongues must be accompanied with interpretation when in a group setting.

The benefits of Tongues (of which there are at least 8) in the private prayer life is phenomenal and something that all Christians should want to do.
Speaking in tongues is not a forced or learned language, it is of God and cannot be counterfeited. And all the ridiculous things you may have seen associated with this manifestation…. It is none of that!
You are in control, you do the speaking, (out loud or silent) you start and stop at will just as you do when you speak your native language….. It’s your job that you speak it’s God’s job what you speak.

Over the years I have had the privilege of showing hundreds of believers how to manifest from the Word of God. Not one person failed to manifest…..not because of me, but because of God.

 

[presidente]

Again........you are arguing apples to oranges and you are stating what YOU want to believe and are ignoring the linguistic Greek.

You are the one who parroted some false observations about Greek, which Greek scholars have disagreed with in their commentaries and which is inconsistent with statements in commentaries from those who know Greek. Studying a bit of grammar does not qualify you to speak on the subject. There is more to the subject than looking for words to agree grammatically. You would have to have enough sense of the language--- or else study passage closely enough--- to determine whether nouns that appear before verbs in the type of construction must agree grammatically with another noun in the passage or else serve as stand alone pronouns in the context. I have offered clear examples from the Bible that do not fit the pattern you propose for Mark 16:17.

Spiritual gifts are NOT THE SIGN GIFTS as recorded in Mark 16. Mark 16 is actually about the GIFTS given by Christ to the ELEVEN as written in Mark 16 and is the only place in the Scripture where they are found.

WHY in the world do you insist that that is not relevant????

It is irrelevant that people in this generation are not among the 11 apostles, because Mark 16 says 'these signs shall follow them that believe.' The grammatical analysis you presented has been shown lacking. If definite articles before a verb construction like the one you point to in Mark 16:17 must refer back to the most recent plural noun, then Ana in the account in Luke 2, when she spoke of Christ to all who 'top all them that looked for redemption in Israel' was speaking to 'prayers' rather than to people. Or if you look for the most recent plural noun referring to 'people', then she must have been speaking to the 'Gentiles' of verse 32.

If your analysis is correct, then those for whom Judas 'was guide to them that took Jesus' in Acts 1:16 were actually the disciples in the upper room in verse 15. And 'And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem;' means the dwellers in Jerusalem were the 120 in Jerusalem.

But that is obviously not correct, and it makes no sense to insist that 'them that believe' refers exclusively to the apostles when the previous verse says that he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.

It comes off as a bit intellectually dishonest on your part to ignore evidence that disproves your grammatical/semantic rule for interpreting Mark 16:17 and pretending the evidence does not exist. It makes me wonder if are just skimming posts and responding without knowing what you are talking about, whether you are just so convinced that whatever commentary you read is right and you treat it as axiomatic Biblical truth and are closed off to other ideas, or if there is something spiritual that clouds your comprehension. I wonder if it is a strong emotional investment into some minutia of detail that overrides logic. Whatever the case, I encounter that type of attitude from time to time on forums like this, and I do not know what to make of it. I suppose it is different for each individual.

If you want to make speaking in tongues healing the sick sign gifts in Mark 16 but not sign gifts in I Corinthians 12, don't expect people to know what you mean by your terminology such as 'sign gifts.' When you use extra-biblical terminology like that, you can confuse people. Mark 16 says signs. I Corinthians 12 says gifts. Maybe you should stick to the terms used in the passages to prevent confusion or else explain your own creative use of categories. When I read 'sign gifts' typically the term is used to refer to Mark 16 and I Corinthians 12 gifts. Since 'sign gifts' is a made up category not found in scripture, you shouldn't get upset if people do not understand if you have a nonstandard usage of the term.









Why try to teach Bible doctrine... Obviously because some do not accept Bible doctrine hence the errors we see today on this very thread.

"Apostolic Succession" is a tradition instituted by the RCC and IS NOT BIBLICAL. Again I say to you.....there is not one single verse in the Scriptures that suggest an ongoing Apostolic office after the ELEVEN seen in Mark 16.

Anything see today is a fabrication of the minds of men who want to speak in tongues and hold an office that Biblically does not exist.[/QUOTE]

 

[presidente]

Yes all believers and non-believers have experiences. When a believer experiences something that is taught in Scripture - such as the New Birth (John 3:1-10), then this experience is constituted as experiential knowledge. To put it another way: It is one thing to have head knowledge of a subject, quite another to have experienced it.

However, experiences never, never, never prove Scripture!!!!!!!! ALL experiences are weighed and judged by Scripture as to whether are not they are from God.

From the perspective of the unbeliever who comes to faith, an encounter like this might be perceived as a kind of proof, or evidence at least. There are many examples in scripture that show people believing or at least paying more attention to the message after seeing miracles.

Here are a couple of verses from an account of a healing in John 4:
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
...
53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

Sergius Paulus believed after seeing Elymas struck blind. God bore witness to them that heard Christ through signs, wonders, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will.

If a person claims to be able to speak in a language not formerly known by the speaker, the language must still follow legitimate linguistic patterns. The ecstatic utterances I have witnessed are pure gibberish. What they speak does not harmonize with Scripture and therefore can not have it's origins in the Holy Spirit. They either have their roots in the energy of the flesh or in the energy of the Devil.

My bachelors degree is in Linguistics, and I've studied a number of languages myself. One question that comes to mind is how many people who say such things are really qualified to determine if a language is pure gibberish? Cantonese, Vietnamese and especially Hottentot sound like pure gibberish. But English, Indonesian, Malaysian, and Spanish sound like real languages. I know or have studied a bit of the latter four, but not the first three. What is gibberish is a matter of perspective. If you do not know a language, it may well sound like gibberish. One critic of speaking in tongues on this forum some years ago wrote 'harga warga' mocking speaking in tongues, presenting that as an example of gibberish. I informed her that was a couple of words in Indonesia-- 'price' and 'family.' She couldn't tell even the gibberish she made up were real words in some language, so how could you say that something is gibberish and not a real language?

It may be that some analysis of a given case of speaking in tongues does not fit with a particular linguist's understanding of how human languages are inflected for meaning. Paul also suggests the possibility of tongues of angels. He doesn't say he did it. He suggested it as a hypothetical possibility. We have no idea how angelic languages are inflected for meaning. My understanding is that the linguist Samarin's work argued that the intonation of speaking in tongues did not fit the pattern of human language, but I have heard people praying in English in the same high pitched monotone, and if I were to follow his reasoning, I'd have to dismiss that as non-language, even though I understand it and it is my own language. He must have had a peculiar sample of recordings, also, because the high pitched monotone is not typical of speaking in tongues in my experience.

I would not say that all that claims to be speaking in tongues necessarily is. It could be that there is some human-generated glossalalia that is not the real deal. But I do not see any warning in scripture that speaking in tongues will be demonic. I do see Christ's teaching against the idea that if one asks the Father for a fish, that the Father would give Him a serpent. Also, the idea of praying to receive a gift of the Spirit seems quite in line with the teaching of scripture, since I Corinthians 14 encourages believers to desire to prophesy and directly encourages those who speak in tongues to pray that they may interpret. In Acts 4, the apostles prayed to God to do signs and wonders and to stretch forth His hand to heal for the sake of His Servant Jesus.

 

[presidente]

I accidentally left this part on the end of a previous post without responding or deleting.

Why try to teach Bible doctrine... Obviously because some do not accept Bible doctrine hence the errors we see today on this very thread.

I agree that we see errors on this thread, but one must be open to what the scriptures say and not insist on bunk Greek arguments to entrench themselves in their positions, even when said positions have been debunked with examples from the Bible.

"Apostolic Succession" is a tradition instituted by the RCC and IS NOT BIBLICAL. Again I say to you.....there is not one single verse in the Scriptures that suggest an ongoing Apostolic office after the ELEVEN seen in Mark 16.

Apostolic succession has to do with apostles laying hands on bishops who laid hands on other bishops to carry on the clerical office. Roman Catholics, to my knowledge, do not hold to the idea that every bishop or priest they lay hands on operates in all the signs of Mark 16 or gifts of I Corinthians 12, though some of them may consider that they perform transubstantiation and may consider that a miracle. But I don't want to speak for RCC adherents. That is just my understanding of their position on this since they are the largest group that holds to 'apostolic succession' that people in this forum might be familiar with. If you are going to use terms with your own unique definitions, you will have to at least explain your definitions or we will not understand your point. Using standard definitions, your argument does not make sense.

Acts and the epistles are clear that spiritual gifts were not given __exclusively__ through the apostles' hands...if that has anything to do with why you are associating this issue with apostolic succession.

 

[Budman]

Well did Paul speak about unbelievers like you!

"having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

2Tim 3v5

So, I'm an "unbeliever" because I asked some questions as to why those people claiming to have gifts of healing, prophecy, etc. aren't using them in a practical way?

Hey, JB; If you possess the gift of healing, why are you wasting your time here? Might I suggest you go to St. Jude's hospital and heal all of those children with cancer?

After all, the Bible says: "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

 

[presidente]

So, I'm an "unbeliever" because I asked some questions as to why those people claiming to have gifts of healing, prophecy, etc. aren't using them in a practical way?

Hey, JB; If you possess the gift of healing, why are you wasting your time here? Might I suggest you go to St. Jude's hospital and heal all of those children with cancer?

After all, the Bible says: "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

Your questions assume signs are done purely at the will of human beings. The apostles had already healed and done miracles but in Acts 4 they asked God to stretch out His hand to heal for the sake of Jesus, then did signs and wonders. Peter prayed before raising Dora's from the dead. An infirmity first caused Paul to minister among the Galatians and they would have been willing to give their own eyes, but this does not prove there were no gifts of healing or miracles in the or that Paul or Barnabas would never operate in these things later. Acts 15 records how they did miracles among the Gentiles and we see examples of such things later in the account in Acts.

Why don't you go to the hospital and tell the administrators you want to meet with all the people with Covid-19 to pray for them and see of they will let you back there. You could try with non contagious conditions like broken legs and see if they will let you in.

 

[Major]

Today signs and wonders may come and go according to God's will. Remember the Azuza Street Revival?

In my church miracles still happen from time to time.

What are you suggesting that a miracle is???

To some, a miracle is a sunrise.
To others, a miracle is a cure for cancer since they have cancer.
To others a miracle is childbirth.

Is that what you are referring to?

Or are you wanting to see the Red Sea part.
Are you needing to see the walls of Jericho fall down.

What are you saying a miracle is.

 

[Major]

Your questions assume signs are done purely at the will of human beings. The apostles had already healed and done miracles but in Acts 4 they asked God to stretch out His hand to heal for the sake of Jesus, then did signs and wonders. Peter prayed before raising Dora's from the dead. An infirmity first caused Paul to minister among the Galatians and they would have been willing to give their own eyes, but this does not prove there were no gifts of healing or miracles in the or that Paul or Barnabas would never operate in these things later. Acts 15 records how they did miracles among the Gentiles and we see examples of such things later in the account in Acts.

Why don't you go to the hospital and tell the administrators you want to meet with all the people with Covid-19 to pray for them and see of they will let you back there. You could try with non contagious conditions like broken legs and see if they will let you in.

Signs and wonders (like healings) were designed by God to help people recognize and believe in the Son of God and then to vindicate the authority of his apostles as they laid the foundation for the church with their inspired teachings and writings.

 

[Major]

Your questions assume signs are done purely at the will of human beings. The apostles had already healed and done miracles but in Acts 4 they asked God to stretch out His hand to heal for the sake of Jesus, then did signs and wonders. Peter prayed before raising Dora's from the dead. An infirmity first caused Paul to minister among the Galatians and they would have been willing to give their own eyes, but this does not prove there were no gifts of healing or miracles in the or that Paul or Barnabas would never operate in these things later. Acts 15 records how they did miracles among the Gentiles and we see examples of such things later in the account in Acts.

Why don't you go to the hospital and tell the administrators you want to meet with all the people with Covid-19 to pray for them and see of they will let you back there. You could try with non contagious conditions like broken legs and see if they will let you in.

BUT........you conviently ignored the question posed to YOU. YOU believe and poreach signs and wonders and miracle healings.

That being YOUR testimony, the question posed to you was..........
"If you possess the gift of healing, why are you wasting your time here? Might I suggest you go to St. Jude's hospital and heal all of those children with cancer?

The question still stands and I repeat it to you!
"If you possess the gift of healing, why are you wasting your time here? Might I suggest you go to St. Jude's hospital and heal all of those children with cancer?

Personally, I am sick to death of all the talk and bragging. WHY donlt you go out and DO what it is you say can still be done?????

Call CBS and ABC and NBC and gather a crowd and get it done. ENOUGH TALK MORE ACTION and if you can not or will not then please stop saying you can!!!!!!

 

[Major]

So, I'm an "unbeliever" because I asked some questions as to why those people claiming to have gifts of healing, prophecy, etc. aren't using them in a practical way?

Hey, JB; If you possess the gift of healing, why are you wasting your time here? Might I suggest you go to St. Jude's hospital and heal all of those children with cancer?

After all, the Bible says: "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

Excellent point!!!

I can not wait to see the response!

 

[notuptome]

I agree that we see errors on this thread, but one must be open to what the scriptures say and not insist on bunk Greek arguments to entrench themselves in their positions, even when said positions have been debunked with examples from the Bible.

Bunk Greek arguments? Oh my!

Apostolic succession has to do with apostles laying hands on bishops who laid hands on other bishops to carry on the clerical office. Roman Catholics, to my knowledge, do not hold to the idea that every bishop or priest they lay hands on operates in all the signs of Mark 16 or gifts of I Corinthians 12, though some of them may consider that they perform transubstantiation and may consider that a miracle. But I don't want to speak for RCC adherents. That is just my understanding of their position on this since they are the largest group that holds to 'apostolic succession' that people in this forum might be familiar with. If you are going to use terms with your own unique definitions, you will have to at least explain your definitions or we will not understand your point. Using standard definitions, your argument does not make sense.

Acts and the epistles are clear that spiritual gifts were not given __exclusively__ through the apostles' hands...if that has anything to do with why you are associating this issue with apostolic succession.

Apostolic succession is by precise definition the continuation of apostles in the church. Essentially it allows for new apostles even though there is no such teaching in the bible.

If you allow new prophets then you can allow new apostles. Gifts are passed along like family inheritances. Christians are created by their parents being Christian.

Mark 16 is abuse by those who do not like the precise wording of scripture. They dance and weave around to convince themselves that there are things to which they have privy which are not genuine and not scriptural.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Major]

I accidentally left this part on the end of a previous post without responding or deleting.



I agree that we see errors on this thread, but one must be open to what the scriptures say and not insist on bunk Greek arguments to entrench themselves in their positions, even when said positions have been debunked with examples from the Bible.



Apostolic succession has to do with apostles laying hands on bishops who laid hands on other bishops to carry on the clerical office. Roman Catholics, to my knowledge, do not hold to the idea that every bishop or priest they lay hands on operates in all the signs of Mark 16 or gifts of I Corinthians 12, though some of them may consider that they perform transubstantiation and may consider that a miracle. But I don't want to speak for RCC adherents. That is just my understanding of their position on this since they are the largest group that holds to 'apostolic succession' that people in this forum might be familiar with. If you are going to use terms with your own unique definitions, you will have to at least explain your definitions or we will not understand your point. Using standard definitions, your argument does not make sense.

Acts and the epistles are clear that spiritual gifts were not given __exclusively__ through the apostles' hands...if that has anything to do with why you are associating this issue with apostolic succession.

You do realize that the New Test. Bible was written in the Greek.....right???

How in this world can anyone who can use a computer and go to the bathroom by yourself( I am assuming that to be the case) can you say in all acceptable thought.........
" 'we must' not insist on bunk Greek arguments to entrench themselves in their positions, even when said positions have been debunked with examples from the Bible."

Again.... how can anyone "Debunk" Greek Grammer??? All anyone can do is say....."I do not understand it" but it is not possible to Debunk it.

You are again WRONG! The SIGN Gifts I have referred to in Mark 16 were in fact given exclusively to the ELEVEN exactly as the Scriptures say.

Again.....the idea of Apostolic succession is foreign to the Word of God. IT does not exist and it makes no difference to me how much you denigrate what I have said.

Pease read post #698 as it speak directly to your inaccurate position and comments.

 

[Major]

Bunk Greek arguments? Oh my!

Apostolic succession is by precise definition the continuation of apostles in the church. Essentially it allows for new apostles even though there is no such teaching in the bible.

If you allow new prophets then you can allow new apostles. Gifts are passed along like family inheritances. Christians are created by their parents being Christian.

Mark 16 is abuse by those who do not like the precise wording of scripture. They dance and weave around to convince themselves that there are things to which they have privy which are not genuine and not scriptural.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Spot on!