Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[Major]

Did you know Paul? Yet you would state you believe the record.

Unless you are everywhere at all times and have been around the last 2000 years, it is impossible for you to state this has never happened. I don't think you would survive in a country where persecution of Christians is active and ongoing. I certainly would not want to be in such a country myself, but I am sure I would know Who my hope was in.

I fully understand that nothing worthwhile is going to come out of this thread. Cessationists will continue to boast about their disbelief and those of us who know better will try to reason with then to no end.

Are you reading what you write BEFORE YOU write it.

"Do you know Paul"---"Yet you believe the record".

May I say with all Christian love and respect to you....THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF CHRISTIANITY!!!!!

No I do not know Paul outside of the WOrd of God anymore that I know Adam or Daniel or Matthew or even Jesus Himself.

Everything.......EVERYTHING we know about spiritual matter comes from what we know is in the Bible!!!!

So......YES, YES.....I actully do believe the record and that is why you are debating this subject because YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE RECORD!

 

[Major]

Sad case. The Holy Spirit never acts outside of the word of God.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Complete nonsense. We do know what Paul wrote. We do know that God has given His word for us to know Him. Learn to know God as He has said we should know Him. Not through gifts but through the witness of His Spirit with our spirit.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The more effort placed on demonstrating one's salvation by evidences of powers the more doubt is cast upon the validity of their profession.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

OOOOPs.........I just read your post here after I posted mine on the same thought. I see it was as silly to you as it was to me.

 

[SophieT]

Sad case. The Holy Spirit never acts outside of the word of God.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Complete nonsense. We do know what Paul wrote. We do know that God has given His word for us to know Him. Learn to know God as He has said we should know Him. Not through gifts but through the witness of His Spirit with our spirit.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The more effort placed on demonstrating one's salvation by evidences of powers the more doubt is cast upon the validity of their profession.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Since neither you nor the 'major' comprehend what I wrote, let me try to help you out.

You believe the biblical record of Paul's letters and probably the record of the poisonous snake biting him when on a voyage and they were shipwrecked. Paul did not state 'now let me pick up this here poisonous snake and prove God exists. You fail to realize that we are not to tempt God and demand he show us the truth of the word. However, we CAN depend on Him in bad circumstances and I can provide the truth of this in my own life. But I don't bother because scoffers will then call me a liar, as has been done before by cessationists. Doesn't matter. Cessationists do not create faith in me nor do they dictate the terms of my relationship with God.

I firmly believe you believe you are right. I do not know why you quote Jesus when you have distorted what He says and what the Holy Spirit taught through Paul.

No one has based their salvation on power and signs. You show yourself to lie when you write things like that, but I do not believe that is something you even see. You have convinced yourself of what you believe BECAUSE your eyes have not seen it. Therefore, I suggest that the actual sign seekers are people like you. I seriously doubt the Holy Spirit has never provided opportunity for you to repent of your hard heartedness.

Done here.

 

[Dino246]

Lets be clear and cut to the chase. The one and only reason why you support the continueing of the Sign Gifts even in the clear light of the Scriptures is that you are a Charismatic Pentecostal and YOU WANT to speak in a gibberish that no one interprets or understands.

We ALL accept and believe in the healings that God produces and most of us have experienced one or some of them.

However.....Who do you know that in the spreading of the gospel message one has has survived a Cobra bite?
Who do you know that has drunk poisioned water and survived it???

You see we can not do those things because that would be TEMPING God and the Bible says that we can not do such a thing.

But......we can speak in a way that sound unintelligible and believe it is a move of God.

So you do it. That is the bottom line so why in the world don't you just admit it???

Secondly........In case you did not know it allow me to tell you that there is NO/NONE/ZERO Bible Scriptures that tell us there is an Apostolic succession!!!! NO NOT ONE!!!

So then, why does anyone claim to have the Apostolic Sign Gifts when there are NO Scriptures that even suggest such a thing?????

Because YOU WANT to speak in a strange unintelligible noise.

You know nothing about me, and have no credibility with me. Have a nice life.

 

[Dino246]

Did you not get enough sleep last night?

smh

Seems you are the on who is angry

you need to look in the mirror

You both are on the same side in this particular thread... you know that, right?

 

[presidente]

The childish nature of your questions. You wish to play word games taking advantage of the English translations of the Greek.

I was pointing out your inconsistent reasoning. If that seems childish to you, maybe you are not mature enough in your reasoning to see the problem. You are the one playing games with words.

Tongues are languages. Interpretation of those languages in the modern era is a learned gift.

Do you think it is the charism/gift in scripture or not? If it is, then how can you say it has ceased?

Apostolic tongues and interpretation were given by the Holy Spirit in a unique fashion. Such unique gifts have ended. Ecstatic utterances were never apart of biblical tongues not the modern concept of praying in tongues.

I'm not sure why you would call tongues 'apostolic' since scripture is clear that there were non-apostles who spoke in tongues, e.g. I Corinthians 12:28. Tongues are and were not 'ecstatic utterances' unless the person speaking them was in an ecstatic state, and since the native language could be spoken either in an ecstatic or nonestatic state, calling tongues 'ecstatic utterances' does not accomplish much. How emotional does one have to be to be 'ecstatic'? Is the excitement of a country Baptist preacher who says 'anduh' instead of 'and' really loudly 'ecstacy' or does one have to have a visionary experience or be in a trance? Use of terms like 'ecstatic utterances' are not helpful since they do not have much to do with the discussion of the Biblical gift.

Prophecy as in giving new or unique revelation has ended. Prophecy as in teaching forth the delivered word of God continues.

It's a game of fizbin to you. Do you think prophecy in the scripture refers to preaching or giving revelations? I think the problem is that you do not know what 'prophesy' means in scripture.

Peter gives us a good understanding of the term when he says, "but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." In that context he was speaking of prophecies given in past ages, but the New Testament uses the same word for 'prophet', and 'prophecy' to refer to Old Testament manifestations to refer to New Testament manifestations. Whether prophesying is about the secrets of an individual's heart in the present (e.g. I Corinthians 14:25) or the future (Acts 21:22), it involves the moving of the Spirit, and prophesying is revelatory in nature (I Corinthians 14:30.) Your focusing on the content of the prophecy. It's all the same thing--prophesying-- whether it is about past, present, or future. Old Testament prophets gave some prophecies that were not specifically about the future and some that were. The element genuine prophecies have in common is that the prophets is speaking a message from God given by supernatural means.

If prophesying is still done as 'speaking the word of God' now, then it is still revelatory in nature, with the Spirit revealing to the one prophesying what message to speak.

You antics may be tolerated in the house church but in the greater body of Christ not so much.

I'm not sure if you demonstrate the same rude smugness about being wrong in your own church that you do online, but I suspect some group somewhere tolerates you.

 

[presidente]

Secondly........In case you did not know it allow me to tell you that there is NO/NONE/ZERO Bible Scriptures that tell us there is an Apostolic succession!!!! NO NOT ONE!!!

So then, why does anyone claim to have the Apostolic Sign Gifts when there are NO Scriptures that even suggest such a thing?????
[/B]

Your arguments do not follow logically. What does apostolic succession have to do with 'apostolic sign gifts?' I Corinthians 14:28 indicates that non apostles do miracles, heal, and speak in tongues so your terminology is misleading. Paul also became a miracle worker and even an apostle without the twelve laying hands on him (Galatians 2:6), so why would spiritual gifts have to come through apostolic succession?

Your whole line of reasoning was based on some unbiblical assumptions your readers do not share.

 

[presidente]

The thing that is always apparent in this kinds of discussions is that when anyone rejects the teachings found in the Word of God.....
the next step is to always become personal and attack the messenger.
.

Yes, I see this, and get personal 'attacks' directed toward me from time to time.

 

[presidente]

However.....Who do you know that in the spreading of the gospel message one has has survived a Cobra bite?
Who do you know that has drunk poisioned water and survived it???

How many people have you met who have bitten by a cobra or told you they have ever drunk poisoned water? Do you know anyone? How many cobras are there in the part of the world you live in?

 

[presidente]

Now will you please give us the name of the people you have raised from the dead and when did you get snake bitten and have you drank poision dirty water?

Btw, do you seek a sign? Are you saying you do not believe that what the Bible says about signs and spiritual gifts do not apply to the church unless you see a sign?

 

[presidente]

@Major
I wonder if you have bothered to see if there are any ancient commentaries on Mark 16 to see if others who lived closer in time to when Koine was spoken confirm your viewpoint.

This is from the 'Apostolic Constitutions', which some date to the 300s and consider to by Pseudepigraphal, but which demonstrates and earlier understanding of Mark 16 than the one you espouse <https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/07158.htm>:

With good reason did He say to all of us together, when we were perfected concerning those gifts which were given from Him by the Spirit: Now these signs shall follow them that have believed in my name: they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall by no means hurt them: they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18 These gifts were first bestowed on us the apostles when we were about to preach the Gospel to every creature, and afterwards were of necessity afforded to those who had by our means believed; not for the advantage of those who perform them, but for the conviction of the unbelievers, that those whom the word did not persuade, the power of signs might put to shame: for signs are not for us who believe, but for the unbelievers, both for the Jews and Gentiles.

The work also interprets the passage in such a way that one could have one gift and another another, as we also see in I Corinthians.

Now we say these things, that those who have received such gifts may not exalt themselves against those who have not received them; such gifts, we mean, as are for the working of miracles. For otherwise there is no man who has believed in God through Christ, that has not received some spiritual gift: for this very thing, having been delivered from the impiety of polytheism, and having believed in God the Father through Christ, this is a gift of God.

and

Wherefore let none of you exalt himself against his brother, though he be a prophet, or though he be a worker of miracles: for if it happens that there be no longer an unbeliever, all the power of signs will thenceforwards be superfluous.

 

[presidente]

John Calvin also commented on Mark 16. He was a Greek scholar and he did not see 'them that believe' as referring back to the eleven apostles. He also understood from other scripture that signs following 'them that believe' does not mean every individual had to have every gift, but that he gifts were distributed among the group.

When he says that believers will receive this gift, we must not understand this as applying to every one of them; for we know that gifts were distributed variously, so that the power of working miracles was possessed by only a few persons. But as that which was bestowed on a few was common to the whole Church, and as the miracles performed by one individual served for the confirmation of all, Christ properly uses the word believers in an indefinite sense. The meaning, therefore, is, that believers will be ministers of the same power which had formerly excited admiration in Christ, that during his absence the sealing of the gospel may be more fully ascertained, as he promises that they will do the same things, and greater, (John 14:12.)

 

[presidente]

@Major

A quote from <https://www.studylight.org/commentary/mark/16-17.html>:
Heinrich Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament
Mark 16:17. σημεῖα] marvellous significant appearances for the divine confirmation of their faith. Comp. 1 Corinthians 14:22.

τοῖς πιστεύσουσι] those who have become believing, generically. The limitation to the teachers, especially the apostles and seventy disciples (Kuinoel), is erroneous. See Mark 16:16. The σημεῖα adduced indeed actually occurred with the believers as such, not merely with the teachers. See 1 Corinthians 12. Yet in reference to the serpents and deadly drinks, see on Mark 16:18. Moreover, Jesus does not mean that every one of these signs shall come to pass in the case of every one, but in one case this, in another that one. Comp. 1 Corinthians 12:4.

 

[SophieT]

You both are on the same side in this particular thread... you know that, right?

Hmmmm. Did not seem like it to me

 

[Major]

@Major
I wonder if you have bothered to see if there are any ancient commentaries on Mark 16 to see if others who lived closer in time to when Koine was spoken confirm your viewpoint.

This is from the 'Apostolic Constitutions', which some date to the 300s and consider to by Pseudepigraphal, but which demonstrates and earlier understanding of Mark 16 than the one you espouse <https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/07158.htm>:



The work also interprets the passage in such a way that one could have one gift and another another, as we also see in I Corinthians.



and

I want to be very clear and speak to you with Christian love and respect as a believer in Christ.

You are supporting the continuation of the Sign Gifts because it is my guess that you are a Charismatic Pentacostal and you WANT to speak in unintelligible noises.

Personally.....I do not care!!!

Please Continue to do what you want to do.

All I am saying is that you are doing it outside and against the directions of the Scriptures......PEROID!

There are ZERO Scriptures that give directions of any kind of Apostolic succession....NONE!

There is NO proof whatsoever that YOU were included with the ELEVEN Apostles who stood in front of Jesus 2000 years and received the Sign Gifts.

Now you can post anything you want to or think makes a difference but the bottom line is that YOU personally are doing what YOU want to do and NOT want the Bible says we are able to do.

Now.....I have said all I care to say to you on this very simple to understand subject. So have a wonderful day, be careful and stay safe as you can and make sure you go to church this Sunday.

 

[Major]

You know nothing about me, and have no credibility with me. Have a nice life.

100% correct....but is there an error in my presumption?????

I did not see that you rejected my opinion.

In all Christian love and respect, be careful and stay safe.

 

[Lafftur]

Well......I'm still speaking in tongues, seeing visions and having dreams.....

Perhaps I did not get the "Memo".........

Come on!!! Open your eyes and hearts and mind....ALL the signs will INCREASE as the END draws near! It's absolutely CRAZY to say all the "signs" ceased!

 

[Lafftur]

I want to be very clear and speak to you with Christian love and respect as a believer in Christ.

You are supporting the continuation of the Sign Gifts because it is my guess that you are a Charismatic Pentacostal and you WANT to speak in unintelligible noises.

Personally.....I do not care!!!

Please Continue to do what you want to do.

All I am saying is that you are doing it outside and against the directions of the Scriptures......PEROID!

There are ZERO Scriptures that give directions of any kind of Apostolic succession....NONE!

There is NO proof whatsoever that YOU were included with the ELEVEN Apostles who stood in front of Jesus 2000 years and received the Sign Gifts.

Now you can post anything you want to or think makes a difference but the bottom line is that YOU personally are doing what YOU want to do and NOT want the Bible says we are able to do.

Now.....I have said all I care to say to you on this very simple to understand subject. So have a wonderful day, be careful and stay safe as you can and make sure you go to church this Sunday.

"unintelligible noises" is EXACTLY how Satan would describe the Gift of Tongues that a Believer has been given....hmmmmm probably because the Holy Spirit is speaking secrets and the kingdom of darkness cannot intercept the message or interfere in what God is doing.........

 

[Artios1]

I hope you don’t mind me inserting myself into the thread. I know as a newbie I have no credibility …and I don’t expect that assumption.
Our stand as Christians is on the truth of God’s Word…It’s on that we base our life and salvation. So, no matter whose teaching, sharing, or writing, it’s the Word we esteem, not necessarily the messenger.

This topic caught my attention. And since I have spent much time researching the holy spirit field, I thought maybe I could shed some light on this particular area.

Soooooo if I don’t get a ………butt out Newbie! I will assume it’s cool and… chime in.

 

[Guojing]

I hope you don’t mind me inserting myself into the thread. I know as a newbie I have no credibility …and I don’t expect that assumption.
Our stand as Christians is on the truth of God’s Word…It’s on that we base our life and salvation. So, no matter whose teaching, sharing, or writing, it’s the Word we esteem, not necessarily the messenger.

This topic caught my attention. And since I have spent much time researching the holy spirit field, I thought maybe I could shed some light on this particular area.

Soooooo if I don’t get a ………butt out Newbie! I will assume it’s cool and… chime in.

Sure, feel free to share your opinion and views. All of us are doing that here too