Amen! An unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!
- Thread starter Elderdave
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes, I've seen them do that too. Quote Matthew 5:48 and then say perfect doesn't mean perfect it means do the best you can.
But the Lord DEFINES what Perfect is in that verse. Perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect. Not a filthy rag that might happen to have a spot on it that isn't as filthy as rest.
So, I think we are each looking at this issue of repentance through a different lens. It is good to say “I’m sorry.” It is a good thing to change ones behavior when wrong decisions are being made. Anyone can feel sorry, but no one can erase a wrong once done.
The story of King David seems to clarify the point i am trying to make. After a year or so of his great sin, his friend approaches him and lays out a story of a man who has stolen a lamb. David jumps up indignant and declares that person a monster, when in fact it was him that his friend spoke of. He eventually goes to God in prayer and says, “Only against you God, have I sinned.”
When you understand his words, you will then see my perspective.
I am surprised you are unable to see the truth that all three of the groups of people did their part by accepting Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, repenting and getting water baptized. God filled them with His Spirit.
Reading these accounts literally is what assures me that we too must obey the mandate since Peter stated that the promise is for all those that the Lord God shall call. (Acts 2:39) God's calling continues.
1. As I pointed out previously Peter and the 120 in the upper room were filled with the Holy Ghost. Afterward, Peter gave God's instructions. Jews who accepted Peter's message, obeyed by repenting and submitting to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. God is the giver of the Holy Ghost.
2. Philip the Evangelist (not an apostle) told the Samaritans about Jesus' sacrifice. They believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ and were water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:12, 16
Peter and John were sent for in order for the Samaritans to receive the Holy Ghost.
3.The Gentiles heard the account of Jesus' sacrifice, God filled them with the Holy Ghost just as He had Peter and the 120 in the upper room. Cornelius and others obeyed Peter's command and were water baptized in Jesus' name.
I believe there is security when we know we are doing everything we can possibly do to enter in.
The proper understanding of eternal security is that God and Christ have done everything to secure our eternal salvation. We can add nothing to that.
Furthermore, God Himself -- Christ Jesus (Yah + Shua) -- is our salvation. What could be more secure than that?
There it is...the salvation of your souls" =sanctification (the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, to cvonform them to the likeness of Jesus).
“For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved (ongoing) and among those who are perishing;”
(2 Corinthians 2:15)
I’d agree with the simplicity and assurance of this guys statements about salvation
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
that sort of seems to cover it in my humble opinion . But I’m a believer and pretty simple Minded so lol maybe I’m wrong but I’m going to stick to that promise and follow where it’s leading me in life , it’s exciting
Well, I downloaded your attachment. Read the first verses - Hebrews 6:4-6 - and realized that you already have those verses interpreted very incorrectly. And though I think I might agree with you on some things, I am going to have to get that download off my computer. . .
It rages on because the flesh is drawn to self effort and pride.
S
Scribe
Guest
It rages because there are people who misunderstand the doctrine of eternal security and use it as a license to sin.
T
TheWaytoGo
Guest
Thanking you for this post, many months after it was made. I hope I don't repeat anything you covered in your paper, (my brain isn't as sharp as it once was). I became a nominal Christian for decades, after falling away slowly over time and with the cares of this world. I was not living anything close to what would be called an immoral life, but was adrift without an anchor, without direction, without joy, with a "peace" that came only in times everything was going my way, and anxiety to panic when they weren't. After a miraculous and heaven rattling salvation, it looked like I was not only, not going to finish the race, I was pulled up lame on the sidelines. The honest, living, breathing, every moment relationship with the Creator of Everything, His Son, and His Holy Spirit I began with, was so far in the past, I was completely ineffectual and worthy to be burned.
Can a true Believer lose their salvation? From personal experience and study in the Word, I believe we can. What brought me back into right relationship with God, was the shock of the lockdowns, and my spirit being quickened by The Holy Spirit that the Great Tribulation was dead ahead, and the realization of how unprepared for extreme hardship, and worse, not to be counted worthy of, persecution for Christ. If God had dropped my body, (I was near death several times), at any point from say 30 to 65 years old, I don't see how He could have allowed me to enter His rest, let alone offer to share His Throne with me (imagine such a honor).
I guess some would say, it's because I truly was saved that I came back, and if I had not, it's because I never really was saved. I truly believe there has to be a level of response from the Believer. It's not salvation by works, but faith and grace require a reciprocal relationship too. He gives us all the time needed and puts in every effort to draw us to Him, but we have to not only maintain, but allow Him to grow, inside, the places no one can see but Him. If all it takes to enter Heaven is "asking Jesus into our hearts" then plotting our own course, filled with nothing but that original grace (that's I think what Bonhoeffer said turns into a "cheap grace"), then this person is missing that even salvation by grace costs something. If a truly saved person never takes the time to learn and practice that, and to the end of their life, they will be no better than the unsaved.
Jesus' warnings to us over and over "Do not be deceived..." or 'I'm coming like a thief in the night...", or "you must OVERCOME to be with me" makes your strongest argument the ten virgins, especially for the modern church. How does one become deceived? How does one miss the signs of His Master's Return? Because they have no relationship with Him. Imagine having a spouse with whom the other never communicates, not even so much as to say good morning, good night, how was your day, is there anything you wish me to do for you today? They leave notes on your bedroom pillow with all their desires for your relationship and how very much they love you, but they're never read, preferring the images on television and the computer day-after-day in their free time, instead. That person won't be warned of danger, won't be ready, will be out of "oil", and won't be going with Him -- not so much in the Rapture, as so many worry about today, but more importantly at the time of our, unknown to us, bodily death.
You noted Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
The verb "BEING" jumps off the page. Sanctification requires our active participation with Him, EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY. As you point out, the Christian life is not passive, it is not laziness.
It is also interesting that you are the only person I've come across to confront Christians with Jesus words in Rev 3:5 '...I will not erase his name from the book of life... Two things I have learned in my resurrected absolute fear of God is: 1) He means what He says, and 2) so many of His commandments contain the word "if".
In Rev. 3:20 - Notably, Jesus is standing OUTSIDE the church door in Laodicea knocking, and wondering if anyone inside the church can hear His voice. He's trying to get in to the church that bears His name. Some inside have never been saved, some truly are, but their leaders don't teach that HE HAS TO KNOW WHO WE ARE, (even the devil knows who God is, He requires so much more from us). If we don't "open the door" of our hearts, and continually cry out like David, our salvation is in danger:
Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
4 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
After stopping momentarily, the LORD led me directly to this Scripture. He is sooooo good to us with everlasting forgiveness! Thanks for your post.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
How can eternal life stop being eternal?
how can the seal of the spirit stop being the seal
just asking
T
TheWaytoGo
Guest
Everyone gets an eternal life, one in the Kingdom, the other in torment.
The only way to know one is saved, is to follow Jesus (His commandments) and Paul (1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ). It's an all consuming love. That is why many will fall away from the faith in the last days.
Phm 1:24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed...
2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me.
I would wager that today there are more false churches, with false teachers, than righteous ones. Did some of those "pastors" truly have salvation in the beginning? I don't know, God knows.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Jesus is talking to the church, not unbelievers:
Rev 3:3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Rev 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
this is incorrect those in eternal torment have eternal death. The Bible says we who were dead have been made alive, this life he calls eternal, the Bible says we must be born again, this new life he calls eternal.
1. Non believers can be command followers, we know this because we are told gentiles who do not have the law by practice obey it,
2. you can’t fall away from salvation, I agree with you there are alot of fake churches, there are also a lot of fake believers in the real churches, a dog is always a dog, he may play church for awhile but he will always return to his vomit, because that’s who he is, as joh. Said they departed from us, but they were never of us, for if they were they never would have departed,
again eternal life, ONLY given to true believer is eternal
the seal,of the spirit is until the day of redemption, it does not day unless we fall away,
gods promises are his to keep, not ours to lose[/quote][/QUOTE]
Consider the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15. It indicates a child of God can of their own choice turn their back on God and be considered dead in His eyes. The individual in the story clearly held the title of the father's son. He turned his back on Godly responsibility and was considered dead by the father. It was only after returning to his father that he was deemed alive again.
"But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23] and bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24] for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found."
"But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23] and bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24] for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found."
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they
would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 2:19
The father of the prodigal son never stopped loving his child, nor saw his son as dead,
but rather lived in constant hope of his return, and celebrated when that happened.
I agree (Amen) the younger son was simply restored to fellowship. He never stopped being his Fathers son. The relationship was momentarily broken by sin, and was restored by repentance.
S
Scribe
Guest
Even though I understand it to be a parable I think you have made an excellent point and It is interesting how we can read something many times and then one day we 'Get It'. "He was Lost, and is found" Powerfully sobering scripture.