The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[Pilgrimshope]

The entire previous post supports what I was proclaiming. Did you read it? I have posted below the information that I previously listed to support my claim:

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The saints that the beast is given authority to mark war against and to conquer, are the great tribulation saints and not the church. This is the group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles), who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered off the earth.

The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is and where they came from, tells us that this is not the church but another group. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who they are and this in light of the fact that he was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches.

If you will notice, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 time throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Then after that, the word changes to hagios translated as saints. No where in chapters 1 thru 3 are the words church and saints used interchangeably. The next time we see the church, she is designated as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb. The next time that the word church is used again, is in Rev.22:16.

Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Because of this, believers cannot and will not be on the earth to experience God's wrath. Also, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

There is a huge difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him vs. God's unprecedented wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer the later.

The church will be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath.
===========================================================================

It is a matter of utilizing all related scriptures and paying attention to the clues that God has left in His word.



What you are doing is pigeonholing those words. After the church has been gathered, there will still be people from every nation, tribe, people and languages on the earth.

Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then in Rev.7:9-17 John sees a group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language. The elder asks John who they are, which would demonstrate that they are not the church. In further support of this, John says that he doesn't know who this group is. You will also notice that this group is never referred to as the church, but as the saints who come out of the great tribulation.

This group is mentioned after the seals have been opened which would be within the the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath. As I have said so many times, the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, because Jesus already experienced it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. That group which no man can count, will be on the earth during that time because they will have not been believers prior to the gathering of the church, which is why they will be exposed to everything that will be taking place on the earth. This is also why Jesus and the apostles continually warn believers to be watching and ready for the Lord's appearing, so that day of God's wrath does not close on us like a trap.

Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered, which takes place prior to chapter 6 where the seals are opened. Jesus is that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here." It is after this that we no longer see the word church used. Yet in chapters 1 thru 3 the word 'church' is used 19 times. The word church is never used within the narrative of God's wrath. It is the word 'saints' that is used, which is referring to the great tribulation saints.



In Revelation 7, we have to new groups introduced:

1). The 144,000 from each of the twelve tribes, 12,000 from each tribe. These are Israelites who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

2). A great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them Gentiles

The 144,000 are all Israelites from each tribe, who in opposition of the unbelieving nation of Israel, will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

The woman of Revelation 12 who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars is symbolically representing the unbelieving nation of Israel. We know this, because in Genesis 37:9-10, Joseph's dream uses the same symbols of the sun, moon and stars which symbolically represent Jacob, his wife/wives and his sons.

The woman/Israel gives birth to a male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to.

The next group which are those which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and nation, is that group of Gentiles who will become believers after the church has been gathered, who are identified as those saints who come out of the great tribulation. Again, this group cannot be the church, because the current believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

So, your major error in all of this, is not taking into consideration that the church cannot be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath. Since Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath, then said wrath no longer rests upon the believer, which means that we cannot be exposed to it. Anyone who claims that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is truly not believing that Jesus already experienced God's wrath on our behalf.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.

But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed."

magazine I’m reading all things coming from you but those scriptures don’t say anything that you are saying is my point I agree we should use the scripture brother indeed I do

I believe this , if Christ returns tomorrow all who are still alive believe who’ll be “ raptured “ to Meet him in the air together with all those who went before like it actually says

this is if he came tomorrow a guy like you a believer would experience this

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭


Not death you will experience but a glorification of yours body that day

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭

yet if the church was raptured why is Paul the chosen revelation of the nt teaching this ? And if day he returns in a thousand years from now and you die in faith I believe your spirit is going to be “ raptured “ from tour dead flesh body into the body of Christ in heaven ( those people redeemed from all nations of course )

or better example raptured into this place where the spirits of just men are
Made perfect

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Which of course would place them right where that group in revelation is

 

[Pilgrimshope]

First of all, in the above scripture the "one taken" group is not referring to the church being caught up. Those who are taken are being compared to those who were taken away in the flood, i.e. the wicked. So the comparison is wicked to wicked. Those being taken will be the wicked who will have made it alive through the tribulation and are those whom the angels will gather and who will be taken to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. And then the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh. - (Rev.19:17-18, 21)

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride". Another way to look at it would be, The Covenant Lord of Israel has a wife and the Son of man will soon take one. A love gift from His Father.

Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.

Keep up the good work.[/QUOTE]

Does this apply in any way

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[awelight]

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride". Another way to look at it would be, The Covenant Lord of Israel has a wife and the Son of man will soon take one. A love gift from His Father.

Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.

Keep up the good work.

Does this apply in any way

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is just another way of expressing the same point. The persons taken, in Luke 17 are the same as mentioned here. There are only two classes of people, you either belong to Christ or your the children of the Devil.

 

[Ahwatukee]

First of all, in the above scripture the "one taken" group is not referring to the church being caught up. Those who are taken are being compared to those who were taken away in the flood, i.e. the wicked. So the comparison is wicked to wicked. Those being taken will be the wicked who will have made it alive through the tribulation and are those whom the angels will gather and who will be taken to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. And then the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh. - (Rev.19:17-18, 21)

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride". Another way to look at it would be, The Covenant Lord of Israel has a wife and the Son of man will soon take one. A love gift from His Father.

Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.

Keep up the good work.[/QUOTE]

Greetings awelight!

It is always uplifting to see that God has revealed the same truths to other believers.

Luke sheds a little more light on the subject of the 'one taken' group in the example below:

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I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”
=================================================================================

Regarding the above, when the Lord says, 'one will be taken and the other left,' the disciples ask "Where, Lord?" That is, where are they going to be taken? Jesus' response is "wherever there is a carcass (dead body), there the vultures (birds) will gather." That would indeed be a strange response if those taken were being gathered by the Lord. In fact, it wouldn't make any sense at all!

Since the 'one taken and one left' is referring to the end of the age, then what is written in Revelation 19:17-18 explains what the Lord is referring to. As the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age, an angel will be calling all of the birds of the air to come and gather themselves to the supper of the great God, to eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” The 'ones taken' are those who will have made it through the entire tribulation period whom the angels will gather first and bring them back to Christ, where they will be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the Lord's mouth, which is symbolic for the word of God and they will all fall dead. Then those birds that the angel will have gathered will eat their flesh.

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so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.

The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
===================================================================

 

[Ahwatukee]

magazine I’m reading all things coming from you but those scriptures don’t say anything that you are saying is my point I agree we should use the scripture brother indeed I do

I believe this , if Christ returns tomorrow all who are still alive believe who’ll be “ raptured “ to Meet him in the air together with all those who went before like it actually says

this is if he came tomorrow a guy like you a believer would experience this

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭


Not death you will experience but a glorification of yours body that day

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬

I agree with and teach everything that you have said above.‭

yet if the church was raptured why is Paul the chosen revelation of the nt teaching this ?

Not quite understanding what you are asking here. The Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him, has always been imminent. It is the next event that will take place.

And if day he returns in a thousand years from now and you die in faith I believe your spirit is going to be “ raptured “ from your dead flesh body into the body of Christ in heaven ( those people redeemed from all nations of course )

Not quite sure what you are saying here either. I seriously don't believe that we have a thousand years. But I believe that this is the generation that won't pass away until all of these events have taken place.

The next event that will happen according to the promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-18, is that the Lord will come, where the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living will be changed and caught up with them, in our immortal and glorified bodies. Once that takes place, the time of God's wrath will begin, with the revealing of that antichrist who will make that seven year covenant with Israel, as described in Daniel 9:27. This will allow Israel to build their temple and begin their sacrificial offerings according to the law. Then, in the middle of the seven years, that ruler, the antichrist, will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings and will set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple. I believe that this abomination is synonymous with the image that the second beast/false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the first beast who will survive his deadly wound.

During this same time, the Lamb will begin to open the seals, which are followed by the trumpets and then the bowl judgments. These plagues of wrath will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. This is supported by when Jesus said, "If those days had not been shortened, then no one would be left alive." In other words, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than that last 3 1/2 years, everyone would be dead. There would be no one to enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth. And people actually think that the Lord is going to send His church/bride through the time period of His wrath.

We are getting very close to the Lord's coming to gather His church, which can be seen by the spiritual state of the world. And the fact that we already have the mark of the beast technology and people already using it, is another red flag that we are in the last generation. Since the church must be removed prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath, then we are very close indeed!

Regarding the resurrection, it is translated from the word 'anastasis' which properly means 'to stand up again in the same physical body that you died in." At that moment, the bodies of the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church up to the resurrection, their bodies will be reanimated with their spirits reuniting with their bodies. After that, those who are still alive and regardless of what they are doing, will just be transformed, immortal and glorified, in a moment of time which is too short to divide. That's how quick that transformation will take place.

 

[Wall]

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride".

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

 

[laymen]

He went up to the heavens. The air

Hebrew Word: ‏שָׁמֶה‎
Transliteration: shâmeh
Phonetic Pronunciation: shaw-meh'

Root: from an unused root meaning to be lofty
Cross Reference: TWOT - 2407a
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Heavens Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

2 Samuel 21:10 (KJV)
10 And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.

Ya think water dropped out of heaven where God is? Or from the clouds above the earth?

Ezr 5:11

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree with and teach everything that you have said above.‭



Not quite understanding what you are asking here. The Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him, has always been imminent. It is the next event that will take place.



Not quite sure what you are saying here either. I seriously don't believe that we have a thousand years. But I believe that this is the generation that won't pass away until all of these events have taken place.

The next event that will happen according to the promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-18, is that the Lord will come, where the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living will be changed and caught up with them, in our immortal and glorified bodies. Once that takes place, the time of God's wrath will begin, with the revealing of that antichrist who will make that seven year covenant with Israel, as described in Daniel 9:27. This will allow Israel to build their temple and begin their sacrificial offerings according to the law. Then, in the middle of the seven years, that ruler, the antichrist, will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings and will set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple. I believe that this abomination is synonymous with the image that the second beast/false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the first beast who will survive his deadly wound.

During this same time, the Lamb will begin to open the seals, which are followed by the trumpets and then the bowl judgments. These plagues of wrath will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. This is supported by when Jesus said, "If those days had not been shortened, then no one would be left alive." In other words, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than that last 3 1/2 years, everyone would be dead. There would be no one to enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth. And people actually think that the Lord is going to send His church/bride through the time period of His wrath.

We are getting very close to the Lord's coming to gather His church, which can be seen by the spiritual state of the world. And the fact that we already have the mark of the beast technology and people already using it, is another red flag that we are in the last generation. Since the church must be removed prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath, then we are very close indeed!

Regarding the resurrection, it is translated from the word 'anastasis' which properly means 'to stand up again in the same physical body that you died in." At that moment, the bodies of the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church up to the resurrection, their bodies will be reanimated with their spirits reuniting with their bodies. After that, those who are still alive and regardless of what they are doing, will just be transformed, immortal and glorified, in a moment of time which is too short to divide. That's how quick that transformation will take place.

yes the point is it takes place after the tribulation not before the church goes through the tribulation they aren’t raptured out of it , but after they are gathered

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭

that’s the end of this world . it’s the only thing that is left to take place . Jesus will return at the end there’s just one day that is going to come suddenly just like in Noah’s day it comes at the end .

this day when Jesus returns that’s it .

the church exists on earth in this world we live in from this time

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”

‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


until this time

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


That is the same day for believers there as this day for non believers


“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is giving revelation into what Jesus has already taught beforehand

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Revelation is a vision John saw as he was taken into heaven by the spirit . No ones going to see those things of course , but those visuals are meant to convey revelation of how things would be going forward so you see changes such as

what happens when you die changed I think I understand our conflict in thinking I don’t look at revelation as a predictor of the future and correspond it to forgives on earth . That’s not what I believe it is meant for .

I believe it’s meant to offer revelation of Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God until the very end when all the perpetually unfolding spiritual judgements shown in revelation have ran thier course then Christ will come and gather the church that’s after all the tribulation

but brother I mean this sincerely I disagree on some points but that doesn’t make me right and you wrong , I don’t care about that part I’m no teacher like you or anything , I just see scripture differently on some points

so no offense meant or anything just a discussion

 

[Absolutely]

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride". Another way to look at it would be, The Covenant Lord of Israel has a wife and the Son of man will soon take one. A love gift from His Father.

Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.

Keep up the good work.

""Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.""

The one taken verses are the rapture.
Go back and reread it.
In luke the setting is lot and pre judgement.
Pretrib gathering and ALIGNS PERFECTLY with mat 25 where AGAIN 50% are taken.

Both rapture verses
Both 50% taken/left.

Read where it says "2 in a bed"
If wicked are taken,you have a wicked in bed with a righteous....so that is not plausable. Nor biblical.

Then compare in mat 24.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

No way that is not referring to the rapture.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
The rapture

 

[Pilgrimshope]

""Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.""

The one taken verses are the rapture.
Go back and reread it.
In luke the setting is lot and pre judgement.
Pretrib gathering and ALIGNS PERFECTLY with mat 25 where AGAIN 50% are taken.

Both rapture verses
Both 50% taken/left.

Read where it says "2 in a bed"
If wicked are taken,you have a wicked in bed with a righteous....so that is not plausable. Nor biblical.

Then compare in mat 24.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

No way that is not referring to the rapture.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
The rapture

there is no rapture before he returns it’s going to be like Noah’s day Noah’s only warning was what God told him was coming upon the world , and what he told Noah to do to be saved . That’s the state of our world now

“For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:38-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one of those on the field will experience this on that day , the one who is taken will be a believer a member of the church of Christ on earth


“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The one left behind will experience this that day

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believed in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a lot simpler than we’re making it the church will be on earth from when Jesus was taken into heaven until he returns .

the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth

this is after the tribulations . The tribulation brother is described as beginning and birth pains , and building over time until the end until the final day when the lord comes back the way he left into heaven . The way to be “ raptured “ spiritually speaking is to accept and believe the gospel the church is all there is on earth of God

 

[Absolutely]

there is no rapture before he returns it’s going to be like Noah’s day Noah’s only warning was what God told him was coming upon the world , and what he told Noah to do to be saved . That’s the state of our world now

“For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:38-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one of those on the field will experience this on that day , the one who is taken will be a believer a member of the church of Christ on earth


“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The one left behind will experience this that day

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believed in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a lot simpler than we’re making it the church will be on earth from when Jesus was taken into heaven until he returns .

the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth

this is after the tribulations . The tribulation brother is described as beginning and birth pains , and building over time until the end until the final day when the lord comes back the way he left into heaven . The way to be “ raptured “ spiritually speaking is to accept and believe the gospel the church is all there is on earth of God

No
We which are alive and remain meet those raised from the dead.

It is not something spiritual and abstract.
It is an event
Jesus said he has prepared a place in heaven.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

It is way simpler than you are making it.

Mat 25 is the rapture.
Half taken,half left.
Vividly depicted.

 

[Absolutely]

""the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth ""
I never referred to the mil.

You did.

You got it all jumbled together

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No
We which are alive and remain meet those raised from the dead.

It is not something spiritual and abstract.
It is an event
Jesus said he has prepared a place in heaven.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

It is way simpler than you are making it.

Mat 25 is the rapture.
Half taken,half left.
Vividly depicted.

ahh ok

it is simple yes very the church is going to be on earth until Jesus returns in the end very simple

 

[Pilgrimshope]

""the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth ""
I never referred to the mil.

You did.

You got it all jumbled together

""the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth ""
I never referred to the mil.

You did.

You got it all jumbled together

Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.""


this is a quote from the post I replied to regarding when you brought up the millennial kingdom “

but anyways

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No
We which are alive and remain meet those raised from the dead.

It is not something spiritual and abstract.
It is an event
Jesus said he has prepared a place in heaven.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

It is way simpler than you are making it.

Mat 25 is the rapture.
Half taken,half left.
Vividly depicted.

""the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth ""
I never referred to the mil.

You did.

You got it all jumbled together

yes because there’s only one message and one people and one return of Jesus Christ I do have it all together as one message , one day that the church is waiting for . There’s only the one way of salvation , one gathering of the church , one kingdom of God , one Lord , Faith and baptism , One God and father over all , one mediator between God and man.

that’s a big part of what I believe so you have perceived that correctly I see it as one message not something we need to calculate but one we need to believe

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:1-4, 6-7‬ ‭

 

[Absolutely]

yes because there’s only one message and one people and one return of Jesus Christ I do have it all together as one message , one day that the church is waiting for . There’s only the one way of salvation , one gathering of the church , one kingdom of God , one Lord , Faith and baptism , One God and father over all , one mediator between God and man.

that’s a big part of what I believe so you have perceived that correctly I see it as one message not something we need to calculate but one we need to believe

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:1-4, 6-7‬ ‭

Yep the business in heaven.
(Which you have bypassed)
Rev 19 the bride has become the wife IN HEAVEN.
Then FROM HEAVEN the bride has mounted horses and returns WITH JESUS to earth.
How did they get to heaven?
The gathering/rapture

Rev 14.
Jesus gathers ripe fruit DURING THE GT.

Yes very simple. More than one reference to gatherings.
No gathering from earth after the gt.
Jesus,in mat 24 vividly depicts the gathering/rapture of the bride....vividly.
The bride left her home and went away with Jesus to the place he depicted at the last supper...HEAVEN.
He takes his bride to his fathers house.
Always depicted pretrib...ALWAYS.

REV 14 and 19 force you to reframe verses and you are doing just that

 

[Absolutely]

yes because there’s only one message and one people and one return of Jesus Christ I do have it all together as one message , one day that the church is waiting for . There’s only the one way of salvation , one gathering of the church , one kingdom of God , one Lord , Faith and baptism , One God and father over all , one mediator between God and man.

that’s a big part of what I believe so you have perceived that correctly I see it as one message not something we need to calculate but one we need to believe

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:1-4, 6-7‬ ‭

What do you think you have established with those verses?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What do you think you have established with those verses?

whatever you see in then I suppose , I’m not interested in arguing for the sake of it though . Listen I’m sincere in saying , it’s ok with me what you believe about a rapture , it should be okay with you when others disagree . And state their views

I think I have given a very clear scriptural support for the fact that the church will exist on this earth until Jesus returns in the end of the world . But sometimes that doesn’t matter if someone has a different view they will just explain it away and then maybe pick at whatever they can to start an argument

one quick more time maybe simpler

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up,

behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?

this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is the time period that the church will be on earth .

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The time period when Jesus is on the throne in heaven , is the same time period Satan is handed authority on the earth . That is the tribulation and it’s something we go through if we die before Jesus returns , we are going to part from our flesh and go where he is we will be among these folks the church in heaven

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-11, 14-17‬ ‭


That’s the church being gathered in heaven until that day he returns and restores everything

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


On that last day whoever hasn’t passed away yet will be gathered with Christ as he comes from heaven

there is. I seven year tribulation and rapture and all that , but again that’s my own belief according to how scripture nears out , of you choose to see it a different way bro that doesn’t offend me or insult or upset or provoke me in any way I don’t think I need to insist your a false teacher or insult or argue with you

I just like discussing with people

 

[Absolutely]

"" There is no rapture before he returns it’s going to be like Noah’s day Noah’s only warning was what God told him was coming upon the world , and what he told Noah to do to be saved . That’s the state of our world now ""

Yes prejudgement He was told.

...and prejudgement Noah began to rise over a mile into the sky away from the earth via the flood/trib /judgement.

The earth, and inhabitants, were judged....underneath Noah.
Which vividly depicts pretrib rapture.

Both Noah and lot were removed. They left.

Rapture is that same departure.

The last supper dialog
Lot
Noah
1 thes 4
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24

All have departures
All to a better place
All good departures

Your scenario leaves that out.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

"" There is no rapture before he returns it’s going to be like Noah’s day Noah’s only warning was what God told him was coming upon the world , and what he told Noah to do to be saved . That’s the state of our world now ""

Yes prejudgement He was told.

...and prejudgement Noah began to rise over a mile into the sky away from the earth via the flood/trib /judgement.

The earth, and inhabitants, were judged....underneath Noah.
Which vividly depicts pretrib rapture.

Both Noah and lot were removed. They left.

Rapture is that same departure.

The last supper dialog
Lot
Noah
1 thes 4
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24

All have departures
All to a better place
All good departures

Your scenario leaves that out.

not my scenario brother Jesus “ scenario “ let’s just look at what he said when he was asked

Jesus Christ the lord is asked by those he loves this question and let’s examine his answer with a good spirit between us and then ask ourselves if he’s promising to keep the church out of tribulation or if he’s preparing them to go through it until the end so let’s him me both our selves for one post and see if it changes or helps us out in this discussion

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬



does anyone interpret that as if Jesus is promising the church won’t have to go through this tribulation ? Or is he answering then to prepare them to go through what’s to come upon the world in the future ? Not one event but these perpetually unfolding tribulations he’s explaining here he continues

“But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:20-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬



he is not promising to take them out and spare them from this time he is preparing them to go through it then he promises to come back after that and gather his people

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Brother I’m a believer in that guy speaking , and I believe his doctrines are right and nothing will change then after. So it’s not so much my scenario as what Jesus was saying and then his apostles added further insight into through thier writings .

The church has to overcome the world full of tribulations , injustice , a world where the righteous do not prosper but the wicked do , where a good man is killed for a few dollars , while Secular wicked men make up the governments of the earth and rule the people

a world where in a year ten twenty thirty thousand Christian missionaries are martyred across the globe , a world where children aren’t safe , elderly are victimized a world where if you are rich you are a king but if you are poor every day is a struggle

this isn’t the life God intends for us , to get to the home he has prepared we have to go through tribulation while we are on earth and overcome the trials of temptation in Christ .

the church will still be enduring that day he returns to further them who remain until that day all together With those who went before

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There is no rapture unless your talking about the last day when Jesus returns. As I was saying the first resurrection is a different subject . When Christ returns it’s the end of this world after the Witness of the gospel reaches its fullness in the earth it’s the end .

but I realize when using text in discussions our wording can be seen in a “ tone “ not intended so just to be clear with you brother . I’m not an expert , or a teacher , I don’t claim to be a prophet or even a smart guy I’m just a person seeking answers for questions I have in the depths of my soul about God so I look for the answers in his word

I could just be not bright enough to understand like you do I mean that , I just really want to know the right things to believe so I’m seeking discussion with other believers you don’t need to agree with what I think and I totally respect your thoughts I just see it differently whether I’m right or wrong I don’t know