How many beleive we are in the Tribulation period now and why

[Yahshua]

They were supposed to go into the promise land. The iniquity of the Amorites was already fulfilled. But they had to wonder 40 years in the wilderness because of unbelief. A pause in the prophetic timeline of the Amorites. They were supposed to be in Egypt 400 years and then come out and judge the Amorites, but it got delayed didn't it? hmmmm...

I just came up with that on the fly. Sounded good. LOL .. I really have no idea about the Daniel timeline. I have not even begun to study it.

Lol thanks it's something to look into... but you see where I'm going with this. I appreciate your brainstorming.

Here's why I'm asking for a precedent of pausing a prophetic timeframe...the Almighty doesn't change. When something doesn't fit our understanding we need to change not the Almighty.

The Almighty specific told daniel "HOW MUCH TIME" until Israel would be finished with sin, exile, etc. He studied Jeremiah and learn about 70 years. But was corrected and told, "no, 70 weeks; 490 years". This matches the number of times Messiah told Peter to forgive his brother ("70 x 7").

...but when we add a gap of nearly 2000 years we are in effect saying, "no you're wrong Almighty, there's approx. 2490 years (483 years before Messiah's appearance + approx 2000 years of a pause where you do absolutely nothing to Israel + 7 final years of tribulation upon them).

Daniel was highly favored and so he was given a detailed answer of each portion of that 70 weeks timeframe until Israel would be desolated.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Hes going to be a Jew, his fathers worshipped the true Hebrew (G)od

Daniel 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

EVERY prophet including John repeatedly tells the story of a gentile invader of Israel.

The verse from Daniel you've posted there describes the theology of the man of sin. He has a religion that overpowers all the others.
Only you've stopped short. read further

38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price

He invades Israel from the north
He will not honour the god/s of his ancestors
He will not respect any god desired by women. (Women's needs vanquished)
He will honour a god of war.
He will pay homage to that god with wealth
He will honour those who support him and give territorial rights to his followers.

This describes Islam exactly. The religion that currently rules the Middle East and has a demonic lust for the land of Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But Isaiah 61 isn't a prophetic timeframe and neither is Joel 2. Indeed there are a multitude of prophecies that are only partially fulfilled, many stopping in the middle of sentences. But when the Almighty gives specific timeframes can you share any that were paused?

For example, "lay on your side for 40 days...a day for a year".

"Seventy weeks are given to thy people and thy holy city..."

"My spirit can not strive with man..Man is given 120 years..."

Do you know of any timeframe prophecy, where the Almighty gives specific measurements of time, where the fulfillment of the timeframe was paused at any interval?

I'm looking for a precedent to support an arbitrary gap in a specific 70 weeks timeframe that was prophesied.

All you have to do is look at the prophecy itself

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

this says that from the command until messiah is 69 weeks, this was fulfilled when Jesus entered jerusalem on a donkey, a key prophecy to which Israel,was,given so they would know her king had arrived.


Zechariah 9:9
The Coming of Zion’s King
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

this was fulfilled here

Matthew 21:1-5
As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”
4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
5 “Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”

then continuing in daniel 9

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

so we have these events so far

1. the command to restore the city
2. 69 weeks of years later, Messiah the prince will enter jerusalem as king
3. immediately after this, messiah is killed (the cross)

continuing we see this

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

here we have an event which occures 40 some years after messiah the prince was killed, hence we already have a gap between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week of over 40 some years (over 5 weeks of years. But it continues

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

the end of this desolation will be with a flood, the word flood here in the Hebrew speaks of a flood of judgement or anger, in other words, at the end of this “desolation” shall be a period of judgment or anger, this probably represent the tribulation period or the time of Gods wrath

he also states this will continue until a time period which is determined, until then their was be war desolations (I see a parallel with math 24 where Jesus speaks Of wars and rumors of wars.

either way what we have here is an unknown time period between the end of the destruction by the people of the prince who is to come, and the end of this predetermined time, which no one knows.,

continuing

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,

after that period, we have the prince of the people who destroyed the city confirm some covenant which lasts for 1 week of years, or the 70th week

however in the middle of that week, he commits the abomination of desolation which Jesus mentions in matt 24, which begins the time of anger or day of Gods wrath or great tribulation, this abomination will remain making the holy place desolate until the consumption, which is determined (3.5 years)

at which we can look at other passages and know, at this time, Jesus returns and puts and end to the time of the gentile, the final beast is destroyed by Jesus himself as he returns, and the 70 weeks are completed. At which time we are also told, Israel has repented, confessed her sins, and is restored to her land with her king assuming his throne.

one again in sequence

1. command to restore Jerusalem
2. messiah enters Jerusalem
3. messiah cut off
4. city destroyed by Rome
5. Jerusalem lays desolate For an unknown time period, during that time there will be many war desolations
6. a future prince of Rome confirms some covenant with many for 1 week
7. in the middle of that week he breaks his own covenant by placing an abomination which causes desolation in the holy place (is order for this to happen the temple must have been rebuilt)
8. A period of judgment or tribulation
9. the return of christ
10. The sin of Isreal is,complete, the 70 weeks are fulfilled

yet They are not a sequential 70 weeks, no place in the prophecy does it hint at this, God foresaw everything and put it there for us all to see. So we can know this prophecy came from him, not some false prophet.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Let us pause and mark this momentous occasion!

On this, the first day of Hanukkah 2020 16 people on this forum have agreed on one thing!
16 out of 16 votes = No

 

[Truth7t7]

EVERY prophet including John repeatedly tells the story of a gentile invader of Israel.

The verse from Daniel you've posted there describes the theology of the man of sin. He has a religion that overpowers all the others.
Only you've stopped short. read further

38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price

He invades Israel from the north
He will not honour the god/s of his ancestors
He will not respect any god desired by women. (Women's needs vanquished)
He will honour a god of war.
He will pay homage to that god with wealth
He will honour those who support him and give territorial rights to his followers.

This describes Islam exactly. The religion that currently rules the Middle East and has a demonic lust for the land of Israel.

I strongly disagree, he dosent worship (god's) of his ancestors, it's the Hebrew (G)od, capital (G)

Hes going to be a Jew, his fathers worshipped the true Hebrew (G)od

Daniel 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

 

[Truth7t7]

All you have to do is look at the prophecy itself

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

this says that from the command until messiah is 69 weeks, this was fulfilled when Jesus entered jerusalem on a donkey, a key prophecy to which Israel,was,given so they would know her king had arrived.


Zechariah 9:9
The Coming of Zion’s King
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

this was fulfilled here

Matthew 21:1-5
As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”
4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
5 “Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”

then continuing in daniel 9

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

so we have these events so far

1. the command to restore the city
2. 69 weeks of years later, Messiah the prince will enter jerusalem as king
3. immediately after this, messiah is killed (the cross)

continuing we see this

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

here we have an event which occures 40 some years after messiah the prince was killed, hence we already have a gap between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week of over 40 some years (over 5 weeks of years. But it continues

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

the end of this desolation will be with a flood, the word flood here in the Hebrew speaks of a flood of judgement or anger, in other words, at the end of this “desolation” shall be a period of judgment or anger, this probably represent the tribulation period or the time of Gods wrath

he also states this will continue until a time period which is determined, until then their was be war desolations (I see a parallel with math 24 where Jesus speaks Of wars and rumors of wars.

either way what we have here is an unknown time period between the end of the destruction by the people of the prince who is to come, and the end of this predetermined time, which no one knows.,

continuing

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,

after that period, we have the prince of the people who destroyed the city confirm some covenant which lasts for 1 week of years, or the 70th week

however in the middle of that week, he commits the abomination of desolation which Jesus mentions in matt 24, which begins the time of anger or day of Gods wrath or great tribulation, this abomination will remain making the holy place desolate until the consumption, which is determined (3.5 years)

at which we can look at other passages and know, at this time, Jesus returns and puts and end to the time of the gentile, the final beast is destroyed by Jesus himself as he returns, and the 70 weeks are completed. At which time we are also told, Israel has repented, confessed her sins, and is restored to her land with her king assuming his throne.

one again in sequence

1. command to restore Jerusalem
2. messiah enters Jerusalem
3. messiah cut off
4. city destroyed by Rome
5. Jerusalem lays desolate For an unknown time period, during that time there will be many war desolations
6. a future prince of Rome confirms some covenant with many for 1 week
7. in the middle of that week he breaks his own covenant by placing an abomination which causes desolation in the holy place (is order for this to happen the temple must have been rebuilt)
8. A period of judgment or tribulation
9. the return of christ
10. The sin of Isreal is,complete, the 70 weeks are fulfilled

yet They are not a sequential 70 weeks, no place in the prophecy does it hint at this, God foresaw everything and put it there for us all to see. So we can know this prophecy came from him, not some false prophet.

Preterism is a false teachings

No Titus Nor Nero were the Man Of Sin

The Great Tribulation And Man Of Sin Are (Future) Events, Unfulfilled

No the Great Tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, didnt take place in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70AD,this tribulation is future, unfulfilled

 

[Hevosmies]

The Almighty uses nations to punish other nations. Always has. The GT is the timeframe when the nations steal from, use and mistreat Israel for their personal riches while receiving salvation (The Messiah) that was offered to Israel first. The GT = The time of the gentiles.

Ironically its Israel abusing the nations for the gains of the elite lol. And by Israel I mean not the state, I mean the rich rotshild etc. families running things. Funding both sides in world war II ignoring human suffering for maximum gain. Seems like we are in the "time of gentile's trouble at the hands of the rich elites" to me.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I strongly disagree, he dosent worship (god's) of his ancestors, it's the Hebrew (G)od, capital (G)

Hes going to be a Jew, his fathers worshipped the true Hebrew (G)od

Daniel 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

YHVH was the God of Ishmael, Esau and Lot, the father of Moab & Ammon. It's their descendants that surround Israel.
But they don't worship YHVH. They worship Allah a foreign god from Arabia.

Any way you want to look at it. A Muslim doesn't worship the God/gods of his ancestors.
The whole point of Islam is to replace every other god.
Mohammed entered the former pagan shrine in Mecca & smashed up over 300 gods of the Arabians.
He replaced them with one god. A counterfeit of YHVH.

Beside that types of Antichrist are always Gentile invaders.
"The Assyrian" "Gog" (from the north) "Pharaoh" "Hiram King of Tyre" Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, Antiochus Epiphanes, "The little Horn" (A Seleucid ruler)

Then suddenly BANG! A Jewish Antichrist. It's just not consistent with scripture.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Ironically its Israel abusing the nations for the gains of the elite lol. And by Israel I mean not the state, I mean the rich rotshild etc. families running things. Funding both sides in world war II ignoring human suffering for maximum gain. Seems like we are in the "time of gentile's trouble at the hands of the rich elites" to me.

The biblical phrase is The time of Jacob's trouble. That's Jews.
Not Gentile's trouble.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Preterism is a false teachings

No Titus Nor Nero were the Man Of Sin

The Great Tribulation And Man Of Sin Are (Future) Events, Unfulfilled

No the Great Tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, didnt take place in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70AD,this tribulation is future, unfulfilled

I can be corrected if I'm wrong but I don't think EG is a Preterist.

 

[iamsoandso]

Lol thanks it's something to look into... but you see where I'm going with this. I appreciate your brainstorming.

Here's why I'm asking for a precedent of pausing a prophetic timeframe...the Almighty doesn't change. When something doesn't fit our understanding we need to change not the Almighty.

The Almighty specific told daniel "HOW MUCH TIME" until Israel would be finished with sin, exile, etc. He studied Jeremiah and learn about 70 years. But was corrected and told, "no, 70 weeks; 490 years". This matches the number of times Messiah told Peter to forgive his brother ("70 x 7").

...but when we add a gap of nearly 2000 years we are in effect saying, "no you're wrong Almighty, there's approx. 2490 years (483 years before Messiah's appearance + approx 2000 years of a pause where you do absolutely nothing to Israel + 7 final years of tribulation upon them).

Daniel was highly favored and so he was given a detailed answer of each portion of that 70 weeks timeframe until Israel would be desolated.

In Daniel 12 (verse 6 onward) one of the two from verse 6 ask "how long". Then the other one answers but Daniel,a prophet that was given(and explained) everything about this(jn the book of Daniel) says he himself didn't understand in (verse 8) and ask what would be the end. If you notice Daniel wasn't answered but instead was told to shut the book because it was sealed. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12.htm

Anyway this all looks fairly simple and so we think it is pretty straight forward but both the one of the two from verse 6 and Daniel the prophet did not understand how long or what the end would be. So it's odd that we would think that we would just look at this and be able to see how long and what the end would be as if it's that simple. The just of what I'm saying though is that Daniel,,and the one standing by the river looked at this and definitely saw some type of issue with a gap in time,how to understand it was wording ect. because thy ask about it.

 

[Hevosmies]

The biblical phrase is The time of Jacob's trouble. That's Jews.
Not Gentile's trouble.

I know the phrase. Thats why I put it in the opposite, cause thats where we are. The Jews are making BANK right now, they not struggling. Their arab neighbors are wayyy more poor than Israel. Time of Ishmael's trouble?

Id suggest the jacob's trouble is IN THE FUTURE. After the antichrist shows up.

 

[iamsoandso]

In Daniel 12 (verse 6 onward) one of the two from verse 6 ask "how long". Then the other one answers but Daniel,a prophet that was given(and explained) everything about this(jn the book of Daniel) says he himself didn't understand in (verse 8) and ask what would be the end. If you notice Daniel wasn't answered but instead was told to shut the book because it was sealed. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12.htm

Anyway this all looks fairly simple and so we think it is pretty straight forward but both the one of the two from verse 6 and Daniel the prophet did not understand how long or what the end would be. So it's odd that we would think that we would just look at this and be able to see how long and what the end would be as if it's that simple. The just of what I'm saying though is that Daniel,,and the one standing by the river looked at this and definitely saw some type of issue with a gap in time,how to understand it was wording ect. because thy ask about it.

It's wording,I missed the 5m.window lol

 

[Yahshua]

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

Ok let's take this portion since is the point where we deviate...two questions to help argue my point..

1) It says, "after 62 weeks..."

As you've shared, there was 7 weeks prior to the 62 weeks, so would you agree that "after 62 weeks" is the same as saying "after 69 weeks" time wise?

2) "after" any number, we assumed the very next whole number in sequence unless told otherwise.

Isn't it possible that when the prophecy says "after 62 weeks" it's speaking about the very next week in sequence?

---

Putting these points together can't we fairly say,

"In the 70th week Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;"?

As you posted, it took 7 weeks & 62 week for the Messiah to simply appear...but then we know he also had a ministry that lasted a length of time. So wouldn't that place his ministry within the last 7 years of the prophecy, being cut off exactly in the middle of that week (3 & 1/2 years)?

 

[Truth7t7]

YHVH was the God of Ishmael, Esau and Lot, the father of Moab & Ammon. It's their descendants that surround Israel.
But they don't worship YHVH. They worship Allah a foreign god from Arabia.

Any way you want to look at it. A Muslim doesn't worship the God/gods of his ancestors.
The whole point of Islam is to replace every other god.
Mohammed entered the former pagan shrine in Mecca & smashed up over 300 gods of the Arabians.
He replaced them with one god. A counterfeit of YHVH.

Beside that types of Antichrist are always Gentile invaders.
"The Assyrian" "Gog" (from the north) "Pharaoh" "Hiram King of Tyre" Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, Antiochus Epiphanes, "The little Horn" (A Seleucid ruler)

Then suddenly BANG! A Jewish Antichrist. It's just not consistent with scripture.

Try doing a search and study in the KJV on (God Of His Fathers) it dosent apply to the descendants of Ishmael

 

[Yahshua]

In Daniel 12 (verse 6 onward) one of the two from verse 6 ask "how long". Then the other one answers but Daniel,a prophet that was given(and explained) everything about this(jn the book of Daniel) says he himself didn't understand in (verse 8) and ask what would be the end. If you notice Daniel wasn't answered but instead was told to shut the book because it was sealed. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12.htm

Anyway this all looks fairly simple and so we think it is pretty straight forward but both the one of the two from verse 6 and Daniel the prophet did not understand how long or what the end would be. So it's odd that we would think that we would just look at this and be able to see how long and what the end would be as if it's that simple. The just of what I'm saying though is that Daniel,,and the one standing by the river looked at this and definitely saw some type of issue with a gap in time,how to understand it was wording ect. because thy ask about it.

Lol well I doubt any of us currently discussing it "just looked" at this, but put in a wee bit of study.

Also, remember that daniel was told that the knowledge is for the time of the end and that "knowledge would increase" as men ran to and fro.

My the way, that phrase (run to and fro) in the context of scripture meant running back and forth as far as study (not air travel). These books were originally on large scrolls so one would need to walk back and forth to cross-reference different passages. But today we have bible websites and apps with hyperlinks that make study a thousand times easier.

 

[Truth7t7]

I can be corrected if I'm wrong but I don't think EG is a Preterist.

He teaches (Historicism),this teaching is Partial Preterist

 

[Yahshua]

Ironically its Israel abusing the nations for the gains of the elite lol. And by Israel I mean not the state, I mean the rich rotshild etc. families running things. Funding both sides in world war II ignoring human suffering for maximum gain. Seems like we are in the "time of gentile's trouble at the hands of the rich elites" to me.

Yeah they shall get their comeuppance.

 

[iamsoandso]

Lol well I doubt any of us currently discussing it "just looked" at this, but put in a wee bit of study.

Also, remember that daniel was told that the knowledge is for the time of the end and that "knowledge would increase" as men ran to and fro.

My the way, that phrase (run to and fro) in the context of scripture meant running back and forth as far as study (not air travel). These books were originally on large scrolls so one would need to walk back and forth to cross-reference different passages. But today we have bible websites and apps with hyperlinks that make study a thousand times easier.

lol, No I realize that everyone has studied it so maybe my wording is in error. I'm saying that in chapter 12 they ask how long and what would be the end as if it(the timing) didn't make sense to them either.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok let's take this portion since is the point where we deviate...two questions to help argue my point..

1) It says, "after 62 weeks..."

As you've shared, there was 7 weeks prior to the 62 weeks, so would you agree that "after 62 weeks" is the same as saying "after 69 weeks" time wise?

if you would have read what I wrote you would have seen

All you have to do is look at the prophecy itself

this says that from the command until messiah is 69 weeks, this was fulfilled when Jesus entered jerusalem on a donkey, a key prophecy to which Israel,was,given so they would know her king had arrived.

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

so we have these events so far

1. the command to restore the city
2. 69 weeks of years later, Messiah the prince will enter jerusalem as king
3. immediately after this, messiah is killed (the cross)

as you can see, I said it before that passage you quoted and after, so how am I, when you can not even read what I wrote, supposed to take you seriously as asking a sincere question wanting to discuss what I said? It’s actually quite insulting that you would even ask such a question

2) "after" any number, we assumed the very next whole number in sequence unless told otherwise.

Isn't it possible that when the prophecy says "after 62 weeks" it's speaking about the very next week in sequence?

yes it could be Possible, but again if you read what I wrote, you would see in sequence, the events which followed the 69th week were

1. the crucifiction (the messiah shall be cut off) which occured literally 7 days later
2. the destruction of the city and sanctuary, which occured some 40 years later

so in context, what happened after where not events which happened within the final 1 week or 7 year period

Putting these points together can't we fairly say,

"In the 70th week Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;"?

it does not say this, the Hebrew word used means after this event, with the focus on imminence, or immediately following a better interpretation would be at the conclusion of the 69th week, messiah was’ killed. and we know from history, the Messiah was introduced Palm Sunday and by next Saturday he was dead. At this point, the whole 7 year period (if it was what followed) was At the very beginning,

also, 7 year later, everything which was to occure after the 70th week, still has not happened. In fact nothing would have happened

As you posted, it took 7 weeks & 62 week for the Messiah to simply appear...but then we know he also had a ministry that lasted a length of time. So wouldn't that place his ministry within the last 7 years of the prophecy, being cut off exactly in the middle of that week (3 & 1/2 years)?

um no, your talking about his baptism? hardly anyone was there for that, and nothing in OT prophecy spoke of that as the means to which messiah the prince would be introduced to the people as I showed, he would come riding a donkey.

I showed you the prophecy which did, it occurred literally to the year 69 weeks after the command,

the thought that messiah came 3.5 years earlier is not correct, plus, he did not die 3.5 years later, amd the events which where promised never occured 3.5 years later

so we can very quickly and easily rule that out