how does ||Moses|| = ||Elijah|| ?

posthuman · Dec 6, 2020

it's a bit of a subtle thing, i guess, but i'm looking for exactly what makes Elijah & Moses "fit the shoe" that absolutely no one else in scripture would be able to get their feet into.

by assumption, because of the perfect omniscience of God, these two are the perfect two. no other two would do. i'm asking what is it about these two that makes them the 100% ideal two people to be there, in that place, in that context. the thing that rules out anyone else but them.

i'm looking for this because i think that understanding this will concurrently give us understanding of the deep meaning of the transfiguration, and i want to know that because to have knowledge of that is to have knowledge of the Father and the Son He sent, and that is eternal life ((John 17:3))

reneweddaybyday · Dec 6, 2020

posthuman said:

Looking at the record, Moses, Elijah, and Jesus spoke of His decease which He should accomplish at Jerusalem (Luke 9:31) and what was discussed was not revealed to Peter, James, John because they were heavy with sleep (Luke 9:32).

When Peter, James, and John awoke, then they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him (Luke 9:32).

As Moses and Elijah departed, then Peter spoke about building the 3 tabernacles and Luke 9:33 indicates Peter spoke not knowing what he said. Peter, being the impulsive person he was, spoke without taking into consideration exactly what had taken place because he had been sleeping.

It was while Peter made the suggestion about building 3 tabernacles that the cloud descended:

Luke 9:34-35 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Peter, James, John, Jesus were overshadowed by the cloud ... the very presence of God. Moses and Elijah had departed.

Then, the next day they departed the mountain and the man brought his son to Jesus, asking Him to heal his son and that His disciples had been unable to.

After this incident, Jesus gathered His disciples and told them that He would be delivered to the hands of men (see Matt 17:22-23, Mark 9:30-32, Luke 9:43-45). Was this what He, Moses, and Elijah spoke of on the mount?

I am in agreement that the Transfiguration was a significant event, And I believe it had more to do with Jesus than with us. I also believe that Peter, James, and John were allowed to partake in this extraordinarily blessed event so they could testify as eyewitnesses to the majestic glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And I have thought about why would Moses and Elijah come to discuss what was to come with Jesus? While Jesus is Who Jesus is, we also know that He was found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (Phil 2:8). We also know that angels ministered to Him (Matt 4:11, Luke 22:43 ... see also Psalm 91:11-12). So was this event with Moses and Elijah to benefit Jesus? ... just as angels ministered to Him, giving Him strength in His humbled state to face what He was going to go through? ... think about what exactly He was going to go through at the time of His crucifixion.

Yahshua · Dec 6, 2020

posthuman said:

Interestingly enough, Josiah wasn't always ruling in obedience to the law...but once it was read to him he was pricked in the heart and then conformed to it.

2 Kings 22:10-11
10 And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.

11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.

Meanwhile, Elijah came on the scene as a mouthpiece for the Almighty (like Moses was and like Messiah was), setting straight the people's worship.

posthuman · Dec 6, 2020

Yahshua said:

what prophet didn't?

Yahshua · Dec 6, 2020

posthuman said:

Hmm. True. Which brings us back to Moses and his promise that the Almighty would send the people a prophet like him.

Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

There have been many prophets, but how many were like Moses?

----

Here are a few more interesting elements that may help explain this riddle:

1) Moses asked to see the Almighty's glory. He agreed but told Moses he couldn't see the Almighty's face and live, so He would pass by Moses...

Exodus 33:22
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

^ Did the portion in bold ever happen to Moses? I'm currently reading through the book looking for whether it happened but I haven't found it yet. Exodus 34:6 says the Almighty passed by Moses but no word about being placed in the clift of the rock. Meanwhile, fast-forward to Elijah when he was fleeing from Jezebel. He hid in a cave ON THE SAME MOUNTAIN...

1 Kings 19:9
And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

The Almighty then proceeded to pass by Elijah...

1 Kings 19:11-13
And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

^ So here we have the Almighty performing the same act for Elijah that he promised to do for Moses, and yet Elijah didn't ask for it to happen. Is the Almighty confirming that Elijah is linked to Moses using this scene?

----

2) Next, strangely enough, I think Elijah ascended in a chariot in the same location that Moses died.

In 2 Kings 2, we're told that Elijah was about to be taken up. Elijah and his servant travel from Gilgal to Bethel, to Jericho, and then crossing the Jordan by smiting the waters so they part...just like the Almighty did for Joshua to go in the reverse.

Moses died on the side of the river that Elijah and Elisha were now on. Moses wasn't allowed to cross over the Jordan into the promised land. And it was there that the whirlwind snatched Elijah away.

----

3) Then, recall the ark of the testimony's lid (i.e. the mercy seat). It was to be two cherubim beaten out of a single piece of gold, (Exodus 37:7) and the Almighty's glory would appear "between the cherubim". So one lid with two figures made out of the same stuff.

Cherubim | Living God | Cherubim

...And then at the transfiguration, we have Moses, the Messiah, and Elijah all appearing...the Messiah is the "glory" of the Father.

Moses | God in the Flesh | Elijah

----

4) This is rather weaker than the previous elements, but the Almighty said He would make Moses "like god" to Pharaoh, with Aaron as Moses's prophet. Elijah's name means "[Our] God is Yah" and he ascends to heaven like the Messiah, who says "no one ascends to heaven except the 'son of man' who came from heaven".

----

It would seem Elijah was the other half of Moses (not literally or like in a blasphemous reincarnation way, but spiritually), and together they may have represented the earthly throne or full council of the Living God on earth, prior to Messiah's appearance? So the Almighty's Glory (i.e. the Messiah) had to appear between the two men in the vision.

Mark 10:37-40
They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

posthuman · Dec 9, 2020

Then answered I, and said unto him,
What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

And I answered again, and said unto him,
What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

And he answered me and said,
Knowest thou not what these be?
And I said,
No, my lord.

Then said he,
These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
(Zechariah 4:11-14)

at the transfiguration, Moses & Elijah stand next to the Lord of the whole earth.

Grandpa · Dec 9, 2020

It never occurred to me to even ask why. I just knew that Moses and Elijah were important figures representing the law and prophets.

I thought it was a pretty big honor for the disciples to see Moses and Elijah with the Lord. Probably, because they were so well known among the Jewish people and recognizable, it showed the disciples (and us) how important and how much Authority the Lord has in the Kingdom of God.

Moses and Elijah aren't going to show up together to meet just anyone...

I have read the bible several times and somehow missed what Yahshua presented. That was pretty good stuff.

posthuman · Dec 9, 2020

This thread has gone on long enough that I guess I can go ahead and give my view of why these two:

Christ the Son is being revealed as the Shekinah glory that was in the pillar of cloud and fire leading Israel out of Egypt, that filled the temple Solomon built. THE glorious LIGHT

Moses entered this cloud - it parked on the tabernacle when he met there with God.
Elijah entered this cloud - it is the whirlwind in which he was taken up.

These two men, and none other, have been inside the bright cloud of glory and know Who is in it. They are at the transfiguration because they are witnesses, the only 'two witnesses' that can attest that Jesus Christ is He: the visible presence of the invisible I AM

posthuman · Dec 9, 2020

Yahshua said:

Hmm. True. Which brings us back to Moses and his promise that the Almighty would send the people a prophet like him.

Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

There have been many prophets, but how many were like Moses?

----

Here are a few more interesting elements that may help explain this riddle:

1) Moses asked to see the Almighty's glory. He agreed but told Moses he couldn't see the Almighty's face and live, so He would pass by Moses...

Exodus 33:22
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

^ Did the portion in bold ever happen to Moses? I'm currently reading through the book looking for whether it happened but I haven't found it yet. Exodus 34:6 says the Almighty passed by Moses but no word about being placed in the clift of the rock. Meanwhile, fast-forward to Elijah when he was fleeing from Jezebel. He hid in a cave ON THE SAME MOUNTAIN...

1 Kings 19:9
And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

The Almighty then proceeded to pass by Elijah...

1 Kings 19:11-13
And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

^ So here we have the Almighty performing the same act for Elijah that he promised to do for Moses, and yet Elijah didn't ask for it to happen. Is the Almighty confirming that Elijah is linked to Moses using this scene?

----

2) Next, strangely enough, I think Elijah ascended in a chariot in the same location that Moses died.

In 2 Kings 2, we're told that Elijah was about to be taken up. Elijah and his servant travel from Gilgal to Bethel, to Jericho, and then crossing the Jordan by smiting the waters so they part...just like the Almighty did for Joshua to go in the reverse.

Moses died on the side of the river that Elijah and Elisha were now on. Moses wasn't allowed to cross over the Jordan into the promised land. And it was there that the whirlwind snatched Elijah away.

----

3) Then, recall the ark of the testimony's lid (i.e. the mercy seat). It was to be two cherubim beaten out of a single piece of gold, (Exodus 37:7) and the Almighty's glory would appear "between the cherubim". So one lid with two figures made out of the same stuff.

Cherubim | Living God | Cherubim

...And then at the transfiguration, we have Moses, the Messiah, and Elijah all appearing...the Messiah is the "glory" of the Father.

Moses | God in the Flesh | Elijah

----

4) This is rather weaker than the previous elements, but the Almighty said He would make Moses "like god" to Pharaoh, with Aaron as Moses's prophet. Elijah's name means "[Our] God is Yah" and he ascends to heaven like the Messiah, who says "no one ascends to heaven except the 'son of man' who came from heaven".

----

It would seem Elijah was the other half of Moses (not literally or like in a blasphemous reincarnation way, but spiritually), and together they may have represented the earthly throne or full council of the Living God on earth, prior to Messiah's appearance? So the Almighty's Glory (i.e. the Messiah) had to appear between the two men in the vision.

Mark 10:37-40
They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

This is great, wow, thank you for sharing

Scribe · Dec 9, 2020

posthuman said:

FEAR NOT

posthuman · Dec 9, 2020

Scribe said:

Matthew 17:7
And Jesus came and touched them, and said,
Arise, and be not afraid.

Scribe · Dec 9, 2020

posthuman said:

OHhh!! I love that. ARISE... AND BE NOT AFRAID.... (Listen to THAT)

Yahshua · Dec 9, 2020

posthuman said:

Yeah no problem at all. It's what I love about bible study, learning from others and then sharing what I've found too as we build on each others knowledge.

Grandpa said:

Yeah I've started to pay attention to the things in scripture that seem out of place. Truly, we know that everything in scripture is meant to be there, so when something appears to be odd or out of place, I think that's where a treasure is purposely hidden by God.

For instance, in Genesis 37 we read the story of Joseph but right in the middle of the narrative there's a break where we read about Judah's drama with Tamar and the strange birth of his twin sons (Gen 38).

It now seems so out of place! It appears to have nothing to do with Joseph's account. So why is it really there??

I've read through the story several times, and have been taught the story since youth, but I never noticed this chapter until recently.

----

...So it's oddities like this that can send me down new paths of study.

Yahshua · Dec 9, 2020

posthuman said:

This thread has gone on long enough that I guess I can go ahead and give my view of why these two:

Christ the Son is being revealed as the Shekinah glory that was in the pillar of cloud and fire leading Israel out of Egypt, that filled the temple Solomon built. THE glorious LIGHT

Moses entered this cloud - it parked on the tabernacle when he met there with God.
Elijah entered this cloud - it is the whirlwind in which he was taken up.

These two men, and none other, have been inside the bright cloud of glory and know Who is in it. They are at the transfiguration because they are witnesses, the only 'two witnesses' that can attest that Jesus Christ is He: the visible presence of the invisible I AM

This is good. I hadn't considered that perspective.

Scribe · Dec 9, 2020

Yahshua said:

Here's a probability. The story of Joseph being sold into Egypt is a continuing narration of the Redemption story that ultimately leads to Jesus Christ. And so is this random story of the wickedness of Judah. The woman involved ends up being part of the genealogy of the messiah. So it really does belong, it is part of the story of the Redemption plan.

What seems like negatives end up being used by God to turn a negative into a good.

Yahshua · Dec 9, 2020

Scribe said:

Oh indeed, I agree. That's like the first order of business to conclude that it, a long with everything else in scripture, points to the Messiah and redemption, Amen...there are so many layers...but I mean specifically, the chapter doesn't advance the story of Joseph.

If it were removed we wouldn't lack any understanding about Joseph's account. The birth of the twins doesn't come into play in the rest of Joseph's story...but, yes, it's exactly where the Almighty intended the chapter to be.

So it's almost like He's saying, "Hey folks! Can you figure out why I'm drawing your attention to this?

"

Like why were Judah's sons birth so weirdly? It has to mean something..

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how does ||Moses|| = ||Elijah|| ?

posthuman

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Yahshua

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