Understanding Gen 2:7

[rodders2828]

Keep in mind that punctuation didn't exist until hundreds of years after this. What you read in our modern bibles is interpretation as well as translation. Saying it the way I have it is totally plausible, so then if all other scriptures point toward death as 'sleep', awaiting resurrection, then perhaps we need to rethink this one.

Another point - regarding the tree of life: In Revelation we see the return of the tree of life, and there it is used for healing. I don't think one bite necessarily equals immortality, possibly it provides only short term healing for any illness or injury. So then Adam and Eve may well have eaten that fruit in the garden, it doesn't really matter as mortality comes from being denied further access to the tree.

 

[laymen]

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
This just means his plans for this life. Not his conscience. That was an interpretation you provided but not the correct one.
His thoughts for a house, more money, more cattle, more children. These all perish the day he dies.
Now do you get it?
This verse and one in Eccl and Job are used by the cults to teach soul sleep but the one in Job and Eccl are expressions of men who don't know what happens in the afterlife and are expressing their emotional dispair. That a man cannot praise God in the grave (Hezekiah) is not meant to teach people what happens in the after life it is simply a way of expressing how he wanted to remain alive to give God praise in the land of the living before the ears of the living so that they might know the wonders of God who is worthy of our lips praising him which our lips cant do in the grave. And who is there to hear it? It is a poetic vent.

Same with this verse. His plans for the future all perish. His thoughts, the things he had been planning.

You ignored that definition in the Hebrew and went straight to Conscious even thought it is not the best definition at all. That hints of intellectual dishonesty on your part. You don't want it to mean plans.

I might seem a little cranky because I have grown weary of the weak argument for soul sleep using this verse. I don't think the people who use it really believe it. It is just all they have.

You are mistaken Sir. See back my post #1 not just when on earth but until the the resurrection. Ps 146:4

Thoughts. Heb. ‘eshtonoth, a word occurring only here. It comes from the verb ‘ashath, which occurs only twice, once in Jer. 5:28, translated “shine,” and once in Jonah 1:6, with the meaning, “to give thought to.” An Aramaic verb, ‘ashith, meaning, “to intend,” “to plan,” occurs once in Dan. 6:4. The translation “plans” (RSV) evidently comes from considering ‘eshtoneth to be based on the Aramaic ‘ashith. Such a relationship is doubtful, however, in the light of the Davidic authorship of the psalm. It appears more reasonable to consider ‘eshtoneth as from the Heb. ‘ashath, “to give thought to,” and hence to retain the translation “thoughts.” The LXX and the Vulgate support this translation.

 

[Corban]

That's just another nonsensical observation. The translators of the KjV were primarily Puritans and Anglicans, and were full apprised of the errors of the church of Rome. Read their Preface ("The Translators to the Reader"). "Easter" is equivalent to Pascha, which includes both the feasts of Passover and Unleavened Bread, and corresponded to the Easter season (by then a well-established Christian festival).

Easter is the Feast to the fertility goddess Ishtar. It occurs on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring (northern hemisphere) Equinox. It has nothing to do with the Passover on the 14th of Nisan.

That the orgy-feast of Ishtar is a well established Christian Feast we agree. Shame on Christianity - demon worshipers (1st Cor.10:19-20)

 

[KJV1611]

Easter is the Feast to the fertility goddess Ishtar. It occurs on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring (northern hemisphere) Equinox. It has nothing to do with the Passover on the 14th of Nisan.

That the orgy-feast of Ishtar is a well established Christian Feast we agree. Shame on Christianity - demon worshipers (1st Cor.10:19-20)

That whole idea of Easter deriving from the fertility goddesses comes from ONE HERETIC a few hundred years ago and he had ZERO evidence to support his claim. Easter comes from here:

The origin of Easter

The English word Easter and the German Ostern come from a common origin (Eostur, Eastur, Ostara, Ostar), which to the Norsemen meant the season of the rising (growing) sun, the season of new birth. The word was used by our ancestors to designate the Feast of New Life in the spring. The same root is found in the name for the place where the sun rises (East, Ost). The word Easter, then, originally meant the celebration of the spring sun, which had its birth in the East and brought new life upon earth. This symbolism was transferred to the supernatural meaning of our Easter, to the new life of the Risen Christ, the eternal and uncreated Light. Based on a passage in the writings of Saint Bede the Venerable (735), the term Easter has often been explained as the name of an Anglo-Saxon goddess (Eostre), though no such goddess is known in the mythologies of any Germanic tribe. Modern research has made it quite clear that Saint Bede erroneously interpreted the name of the season as that of a goddess.
Source: Francis X. Weiser, Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1958), p. 211. Copyright 1952 by Francis X. Weiser.

 

[Corban]

1. So you don't believe the (thief) Malefactor as you call it is going to be in heave? View attachment 223317
2. Paradise= heaven here^^ not Abraham's bosom.
3. You still think he meant today?

How could it be heaven? Our Lord "first descended" (Eph.4:9). Then He stays there 3 days (Matt.12:40). By the resurrection in John 20:17 He had "not YET ascended to the Father". Paradise in is Hades. There is not a single verse, nor a single case of a dead man going to heaven. In Acts 2, David, dead a thousand years, is still in Hades - some 50 days after Christ left Hades, and 10 days after our Lord was raptured.

You assume Paradise to be in heaven - a pagan myth. Revelation 2:7 is the "Paradise of God". That in Hades is the Paradise of the SOULS of dead men. Moses made the Tabernacle according to the "pattern" of the heavenly Tabernacle. There was then a Taberncale on earth and one in heaven. Sion is found in Jerusalem, also in heaven (Heb.12:22).

As a Greek specialist, you would have known that "harpazo" gives movement, BUT NOT DIRECTION. 2nd Corinthians 12:4 should read "caught AWAY", not caught "UP".

 

[Corban]

No sir he did not ask about entry. He told Jesus to remember him (not the same.)
The robber Believed that Jesus did no wrong. He believed it was Jesus too.
View attachment 223324

O.K. The thief did not ask about "entry". I'll agree to that. But what is your understanding of what the thief meant by "when you COME INTO your Kingdom?". The context is, in verse 38, the superscription above our Lord Jesus. The issue was not the name Jesus. It was, as at trial, whether He was King of Israel? But, even so, does this change my argument one bit?

 

[posthuman]

That whole idea of Easter deriving from the fertility goddesses comes from ONE HERETIC a few hundred years ago and he had ZERO evidence to support his claim. Easter comes from here:

The origin of Easter

The English word Easter and the German Ostern come from a common origin (Eostur, Eastur, Ostara, Ostar), which to the Norsemen meant the season of the rising (growing) sun, the season of new birth. The word was used by our ancestors to designate the Feast of New Life in the spring. The same root is found in the name for the place where the sun rises (East, Ost). The word Easter, then, originally meant the celebration of the spring sun, which had its birth in the East and brought new life upon earth. This symbolism was transferred to the supernatural meaning of our Easter, to the new life of the Risen Christ, the eternal and uncreated Light. Based on a passage in the writings of Saint Bede the Venerable (735), the term Easter has often been explained as the name of an Anglo-Saxon goddess (Eostre), though no such goddess is known in the mythologies of any Germanic tribe. Modern research has made it quite clear that Saint Bede erroneously interpreted the name of the season as that of a goddess.
Source: Francis X. Weiser, Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1958), p. 211. Copyright 1952 by Francis X. Weiser.

Great. But the word has no relation to Pascha. Anti-Semitic German Christians translating the Bible introduced it into the text. Under heavy persecution from Jews, early Christians did a lot of things to distance themselves from Judaism, and this word - whatever its origin - was inserted into German language translations in place of Passover. There is no Greek, Latin or Hebrew text that uses this word. They ALL have 'Pascha' everywhere.

So there's really no good reason to use the word Easter or to celebrate Passover on the wrong day, unless you are just trying to remove any hint of Jewishness or Hebrew origin from Christianity.

 

[Corban]

Move the comma. Try it this way: "I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise".
Besides, 'paradise' here is referring to the millennial kingdom, which is yet sometime off.

Did you not read my argument to this? It is in posting # 12.

 

[KJV1611]

Great. But the word has no relation to Pascha. Anti-Semitic German Christians translating the Bible introduced it into the text. Under heavy persecution from Jews, early Christians did a lot of things to distance themselves from Judaism, and this word - whatever its origin - was inserted into German language translations in place of Passover. There is no Greek, Latin or Hebrew text that uses this word. They ALL have 'Pascha' everywhere.

So there's really no good reason to use the word Easter or to celebrate Passover on the wrong day, unless you are just trying to remove any hint of Jewishness or Hebrew origin from Christianity.

But it does have a relation to Pascha. This the one and only place in the bible where passover is mentioned AFTER it had been fulfilled. In other words Easter is the word God chose to call the fulfillment of passover. And it took, because we all, even to this day, with all the misinformation about the pagan roots of Easter still celebrate the fulfillment of Passover as Easter.

 

[Corban]

Keep in mind that punctuation didn't exist until hundreds of years after this. What you read in our modern bibles is interpretation as well as translation. Saying it the way I have it is totally plausible, so then if all other scriptures point toward death as 'sleep', awaiting resurrection, then perhaps we need to rethink this one.

Another point - regarding the tree of life: In Revelation we see the return of the tree of life, and there it is used for healing. I don't think one bite necessarily equals immortality, possibly it provides only short term healing for any illness or injury. So then Adam and Eve may well have eaten that fruit in the garden, it doesn't really matter as mortality comes from being denied further access to the tree.

I think you missed some grand points in Revelation 22:2. The "LEAVES" of the Tree, not the FRUIT, was for healing, and NOT for Christians, BUT for the NATIONS - the UNBELIEVER.

 

[Corban]

That whole idea of Easter deriving from the fertility goddesses comes from ONE HERETIC a few hundred years ago and he had ZERO evidence to support his claim. Easter comes from here:

The origin of Easter

The English word Easter and the German Ostern come from a common origin (Eostur, Eastur, Ostara, Ostar), which to the Norsemen meant the season of the rising (growing) sun, the season of new birth. The word was used by our ancestors to designate the Feast of New Life in the spring. The same root is found in the name for the place where the sun rises (East, Ost). The word Easter, then, originally meant the celebration of the spring sun, which had its birth in the East and brought new life upon earth. This symbolism was transferred to the supernatural meaning of our Easter, to the new life of the Risen Christ, the eternal and uncreated Light. Based on a passage in the writings of Saint Bede the Venerable (735), the term Easter has often been explained as the name of an Anglo-Saxon goddess (Eostre), though no such goddess is known in the mythologies of any Germanic tribe. Modern research has made it quite clear that Saint Bede erroneously interpreted the name of the season as that of a goddess.
Source: Francis X. Weiser, Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1958), p. 211. Copyright 1952 by Francis X. Weiser.

My brother, you said it all in your author - a Jesuit, secret police of the Roman Church. But what you didn't say is why "Pascha" is translated "Easter". The one, a glorious symbol of God's Passing Over the guilty, the other, a pagan feast to "new life" from where the sun rises. My, my.

 

[Corban]

But it does have a relation to Pascha. This the one and only place in the bible where passover is mentioned AFTER it had been fulfilled. In other words Easter is the word God chose to call the fulfillment of passover. And it took, because we all, even to this day, with all the misinformation about the pagan roots of Easter still celebrate the fulfillment of Passover as Easter.

How is it brother, that you, part of the Bride of Christ, support a tradition that goes back to Nimrod in Babylon? With all respect and sincerity, what would you say if Israel declared a national holiday on Hitler's birthday?

 

[posthuman]

This the one and only place in the bible where passover is mentioned AFTER it had been fulfilled.

No, its not.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.


Note that Paul doesn't call Him 'Christ our Easter Bunny'

 

[Corban]

No, its not.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.


Note that Paul doesn't call Him 'Christ our Easter Bunny'

Our brother denies that it is the feast of the fertility goddess, but humor aside, the rabbit is chosen specifically as a symbol of fertility because of its multiplication rate.

 

[KJV1611]

My brother, you said it all in your author - a Jesuit, secret police of the Roman Church. But what you didn't say is why "Pascha" is translated "Easter". The one, a glorious symbol of God's Passing Over the guilty, the other, a pagan feast to "new life" from where the sun rises. My, my.

Take it or leave, I gave the info.

 

[posthuman]

In other words Easter is the word God chose to call the fulfillment of passover

No, its not. Every Greek copy of the book of Acts, every Latin copy of Acts - none of them have this Anglicized German word Easter in it.

God wrote the Bible in Hebrew & Greek. God named a feast Pascha.
Men - antisemitic men - chose to change the time and the name God had chosen.

 

[KJV1611]

No, its not.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.


Note that Paul doesn't call Him 'Christ our Easter Bunny'

The feast of Passover, not just the word passover. Acts is the only place in the bible where the feast of passover is mentioned after the Jesus fulfilled it.

 

[KJV1611]

No, its not. Every Greek copy of the book of Acts, every Latin copy of Acts - none of them have this Anglicized German word Easter in it.

God wrote the Bible in Hebrew & Greek. God named a feast Pascha.
Men - antisemitic men - chose to change the time and the name God had chosen.

Well I hope I get to watch you tell that to God.

 

[Corban]

Take it or leave, I gave the info.

That's a fair answer. Go well bro.

 

[posthuman]

And it took, because we all, even to this day, with all the misinformation about the pagan roots of Easter still celebrate the fulfillment of Passover as Easter.

I can accept that the origin as a pagan dawn goddess festival is sketchy and may have little or no truth to it.

But there's an obvious 'replacement' of the actual word in the Biblical source text with this word. The specific verse in Acts doesn't even make sense as 'Easter' - - no one ever called it that until waaaaay later than the time period Acts was written and writing about, and the people who did call it that were Germans who certainly were not going to Jerusalem to keep an Easter feast.

I know your views about KJV and that you are essentially defending it, on this topic, but I really don't think this is an argument you can win. I spent a few days a year or two ago digging up digital copies of every ancient Bible I could trying to find the first use of this word Easter. If Christians had renamed the Passover feast merely 10 years after the cross, and were flocking to Jerusalem yearly to celebrate 'Easter' there would be all kinds of historical mention of the word and lots of early church fathers using the word and plenty of Latin translation using it.
But there is zero. None at all.
Not until a thousand years later in German regions where they were taking all the Jewishness out of the Bible that they could.
The KJV got this from previous English translations coming out of the same German tradition.